H/S/C ?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

Which one?

Harvard
19
23%
Stanford
26
31%
Columbia (Hamilton, full ride)
38
46%
 
Total votes: 83

lawhon
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H/S/C ?

Postby lawhon » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:22 pm

Interested in academic route.

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alexonfyre
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby alexonfyre » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:24 pm

lawhon wrote:Interested in academic route.


If you want to go academic, you should probably do the cheapest route you can, otherwise you will be mired in debt forever. H or S would be better than Columbia, but not sticker price better.

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CryingMonkey
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby CryingMonkey » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:41 pm

alexonfyre wrote:
lawhon wrote:Interested in academic route.


If you want to go academic, you should probably do the cheapest route you can, otherwise you will be mired in debt forever. H or S would be better than Columbia, but not sticker price better.


don't know about S, but my understanding is that H's lipp will set you up just fine if you go into academia - it's a pretty strong program. might want to look at that and at what kind of cost of living loans you'd have to take for columbia and how well their lrap will compensate for that. if you graduate columbia with 60k in debt but their lrap won't cover you, you could end up paying more per month than if you went to harvard at sticker.

ImpatientlyWaiting
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby ImpatientlyWaiting » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:44 pm

lawhon wrote:Interested in academic route.


Academia means Harvard if Yale is not an option.

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dr123
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby dr123 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:45 pm

Just curious, but how do you know you want to go into Legal Academia if you havent even been in law school class yet?

The Real Jack McCoy
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby The Real Jack McCoy » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:51 pm

dr123 wrote:Just curious, but how do you know you want to go into Legal Academia if you havent even been in law school class yet?


It is entirely possible to take law classes before one enters law school. I know I have.

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thecilent
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby thecilent » Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:58 pm

Columbia with Hamilton. Do biglaw; worry about academia later. Ball out on your 160k salary since you wont have to pay back thatt much in loans. YWIA.

ImpatientlyWaiting
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby ImpatientlyWaiting » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:02 pm

Here are some relevant links. Just like the NLJ rankings, they need to be taken with a grain of salt because of self-selection issues, but I think it's at least clear that Harvard gives you a significantly better chance than Columbia.

http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml

http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2009job_teaching.shtml

http://www.leiterrankings.com/new/2010_scholarlyimpact.shtml

lawhon
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby lawhon » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:04 pm

alexonfyre wrote:
lawhon wrote:Interested in academic route.


If you want to go academic, you should probably do the cheapest route you can, otherwise you will be mired in debt forever. H or S would be better than Columbia, but not sticker price better.



'interested'. not 100 percent sure.

debt won't be a factor either way, as i've saved up quite a bit from working. the money issue becomes more of a factor of cash in the pocket at graduation or starting at 0 (with no debt, though). curious to hear how you all think that affects the decision.

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thecilent
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby thecilent » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:05 pm

lawhon wrote:
alexonfyre wrote:
lawhon wrote:Interested in academic route.


If you want to go academic, you should probably do the cheapest route you can, otherwise you will be mired in debt forever. H or S would be better than Columbia, but not sticker price better.



'interested'. not 100 percent sure.

debt won't be a factor either way, as i've saved up quite a bit from working. the money issue becomes more of a factor of cash in the pocket at graduation or starting at 0 (with no debt, though). curious to hear how you all think that affects the decision.

thecilent wrote:Columbia with Hamilton. Do biglaw; worry about academia later. Ball out on your 160k salary since you wont have to pay back thatt much in loans. YWIA.

lawhon
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby lawhon » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:06 pm

also, i'm amazed at how anybody could "know" they want to do anything for sure. no one knows what it's like until they're in it.

i'm astonished at how many people think the big firm jobs/lifestyle are the way to go. 80-100 hours a week, taking breaks only for minimal sustenance, making rich people even richer.

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thecilent
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby thecilent » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:09 pm

lawhon wrote:also, i'm amazed at how anybody could "know" they want to do anything for sure. no one knows what it's like until they're in it.

i'm astonished at how many people think the big firm jobs/lifestyle are the way to go. 80-100 hours a week, taking breaks only for minimal sustenance, making rich people even richer.

Yeah well you're in a really good position. For me and many others, biglaw makes a lot of sense bc we want/need to pay down our $150,000+ debt.

Too scary NOT to do biglaw, if you ask me.

Plus working those 65-85 hour weeks in biglaw can payoff after a few years when you will have gained good experience and can maybe get out.

lawhon
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby lawhon » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:14 pm

thecilent wrote:
lawhon wrote:also, i'm amazed at how anybody could "know" they want to do anything for sure. no one knows what it's like until they're in it.

i'm astonished at how many people think the big firm jobs/lifestyle are the way to go. 80-100 hours a week, taking breaks only for minimal sustenance, making rich people even richer.

Yeah well you're in a really good position. For me and many others, biglaw makes a lot of sense bc we want/need to pay down our $150,000+ debt.

Too scary NOT to do biglaw, if you ask me.

Plus working those 65-85 hour weeks in biglaw can payoff after a few years when you will have gained good experience and can maybe get out.



very true. the "maybe get out" part made me laugh.

"Once you start down the Dark Path, forever will it dominate your destiny"-yoda

foxtrottortxof
Posts: 51
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby foxtrottortxof » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:18 pm

lawhon wrote:also, i'm amazed at how anybody could "know" they want to do anything for sure. no one knows what it's like until they're in it.

i'm astonished at how many people think the big firm jobs/lifestyle are the way to go. 80-100 hours a week, taking breaks only for minimal sustenance, making rich people even richer.


It's more like 55-60 on average (worst in NYC (up to 65-70 on average)), feast or famine at points. The unpredictability is the worst part.

You have a better shot at getting to know professors very well at Stanford (at HLS, office hour sign-ups have been known to be gone two minutes after posting, for example). A greater proportion of SLS students do clerkships (which you'll want to do), which is correlated with strong professor relationships. On the other hand, the best of the best at HLS are the best-off of anyone--you can write your ticket. If you think you'll be like that, the choice gets more complicated. Also, many pre-academics go to big firms after law school, if for not very long.

sarahh
Posts: 610
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby sarahh » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:28 pm

foxtrottortxof wrote:You have a better shot at getting to know professors very well at Stanford (at HLS, office hour sign-ups have been known to be gone two minutes after posting, for example). A greater proportion of SLS students do clerkships (which you'll want to do), which is correlated with strong professor relationships. On the other hand, the best of the best at HLS are the best-off of anyone--you can write your ticket. If you think you'll be like that, the choice gets more complicated. Also, many pre-academics go to big firms after law school, if for not very long.


Hmm. So you think it is pretty hard to get to know professors at Harvard? Does this apply to all professors or the "superstar" ones.

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samsonyte16
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby samsonyte16 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:35 pm

Ask yourself if you are sure about academia. If yes, choose Harvard or Stanford based on which one has stronger faculty in the area you want to focus on. This is a pretty easy call, in my opinion.

foxtrottortxof
Posts: 51
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby foxtrottortxof » Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:40 pm

sarahh wrote:
foxtrottortxof wrote:You have a better shot at getting to know professors very well at Stanford (at HLS, office hour sign-ups have been known to be gone two minutes after posting, for example). A greater proportion of SLS students do clerkships (which you'll want to do), which is correlated with strong professor relationships. On the other hand, the best of the best at HLS are the best-off of anyone--you can write your ticket. If you think you'll be like that, the choice gets more complicated. Also, many pre-academics go to big firms after law school, if for not very long.


Hmm. So you think it is pretty hard to get to know professors at Harvard? Does this apply to all professors or the "superstar" ones.


Harder, but certainly not hard--by my estimation, if Stanford were a 10 for ease-of-access, 1 being fighting tooth and nail, Harvard would be an 8. That particular office hours thing was with a superstar, extremely nice, great-mentor, extremely well-connected prof. Stanford holds your hand (coddles?) more in general, and having less competition to get to know profs is part of that. HLS has lots of official mentoring opportunities on top of just office hours--you might just have to be a bit more enterprising (which I personally prefer).

sarahh
Posts: 610
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby sarahh » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:23 pm

foxtrottortxof wrote:
sarahh wrote:
foxtrottortxof wrote:You have a better shot at getting to know professors very well at Stanford (at HLS, office hour sign-ups have been known to be gone two minutes after posting, for example). A greater proportion of SLS students do clerkships (which you'll want to do), which is correlated with strong professor relationships. On the other hand, the best of the best at HLS are the best-off of anyone--you can write your ticket. If you think you'll be like that, the choice gets more complicated. Also, many pre-academics go to big firms after law school, if for not very long.


Hmm. So you think it is pretty hard to get to know professors at Harvard? Does this apply to all professors or the "superstar" ones.


Harder, but certainly not hard--by my estimation, if Stanford were a 10 for ease-of-access, 1 being fighting tooth and nail, Harvard would be an 8. That particular office hours thing was with a superstar, extremely nice, great-mentor, extremely well-connected prof. Stanford holds your hand (coddles?) more in general, and having less competition to get to know profs is part of that. HLS has lots of official mentoring opportunities on top of just office hours--you might just have to be a bit more enterprising (which I personally prefer).

Thanks for the information. I was impressed with how friendly the professors were at Michigan, and this was something I was worried about at Harvard.

d34d9823
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby d34d9823 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 10:26 pm

sarahh wrote:Thanks for the information. I was impressed with how friendly the professors were at Michigan, and this was something I was worried about at Harvard.

Being an admired person in a coveted position of power with very little external pressure makes it very easy to be a nice person. I would be surprised if you found a top school without nice professors.

z3201
Posts: 26
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby z3201 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:13 am

It really comes down to goodness of fit here. Harvard sends more people into academia than Stanford does, but Stanford is first in terms of yield into academia (i.e. percentage of applicants who get jobs in the field). If you're not concerned about money I think Columbia is probably out of the picture, and the differences between opportunities at H and S are marginal. Go visit and see which one will provide you with a better experience, thus allowing you to thrive more academically.

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AreJay711
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Mar 15, 2011 12:18 am

I actually think Columbia here. You will have more freedom to pursue an academic agenda after graduation and before your first stabs at professorship. What you write is what really counts and being able to afford a job that allows you more time to get your writing together and maybe taking an adjunct role somewhere might be more helpful.

lawhon
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby lawhon » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:04 pm

bump

CanadianWolf
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:08 pm

Columbia.

lawhon
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby lawhon » Tue Mar 15, 2011 8:21 pm

Isn't there a pretty strong argument for valuing the benefit of Harvard/ Stanford over the course of your life as being worth more than 160K now?

lawhon
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Re: H/S/C ?

Postby lawhon » Wed Mar 16, 2011 2:50 pm

why stanford over harvard?




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