Minnesota ?

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Sandro
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Minnesota ?

Postby Sandro » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:14 pm

Minnesota is ranked 22nd this year. I saw some article that showed the 2000-2008 rankings for a ton of schools and Minnesota averaged the 19th spot over that period. It placed 12% NLJ250 for CO2010. In 2009 I think it was 19%.

Should I even be considering this school ? I was given a half tuition scholarship (OOS). Debt will probably come out 25kish more than UGA even with instate UGA. I'm pretty open to where I will end up as far as region wise and dont have to have big law. Minnesota's numbers are on par with another school im considering , UGA.

Is there a real difference between these two schools as far as employment/quality ? Or is Minnesota just a decent T1 masquerading around the top 20?

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bk1
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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby bk1 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:17 pm

Minnesota is a strong regional school that places well in a region with little competition though it is hindered by the small size of its market.

I think they are both decent enough options at that price. You just need to choose whether you want to stay in Georgia or want to move to Minnesota.

fakemoney
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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby fakemoney » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:35 pm

Sandro wrote:
Is there a real difference between these two schools as far as employment/quality ? Or is Minnesota just a decent T1 masquerading around the top 20?


Whaaa... ?

As far as I'm concerned, the real U of M ain't Michigan... [/biased potential matriculant]

Seriously, I think Minnesota's relatively high ranking owes to a lot of soft factors, like academic reputation, library size, teacher/student ratio, Midwest prestige, etc. From what I've gathered, it's generally a pretty strong school as far as overall employment goes, but not so much big law employment due to the lack of big firms in MSP. How much portability a degree from UMN has is something I myself am still trying to assess. I think to go to UMN, you have to sell yourself on living in Minnesota. Like the above poster said, you probably just gotta weigh the desirability of living in Minnesota vs living in Georgia.

Sandro
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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby Sandro » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:47 pm

fakemoney wrote: Like the above poster said, you probably just gotta weigh the desirability of living in Minnesota vs living in Georgia.


So Minnesota has no discernible advantages over a regional school like say UGA, Wake, or Alabama ? Thats what I'm trying to get at.

fakemoney
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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby fakemoney » Thu Mar 10, 2011 8:51 pm

Sandro wrote:
fakemoney wrote: Like the above poster said, you probably just gotta weigh the desirability of living in Minnesota vs living in Georgia.


So Minnesota has no discernible advantages over a regional school like say UGA, Wake, or Alabama ? Thats what I'm trying to get at.


In my somewhat ignorant, TLS-brainwashed opinion, any advantages are probably marginal. I think it's possible that a few more coastal/big city firms might sniff around UMN, but nothing too substantial. So, really, it again becomes a question of which region you'd prefer/debt control.

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njn3
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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby njn3 » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:37 pm

fakemoney wrote:
Sandro wrote:
fakemoney wrote: Like the above poster said, you probably just gotta weigh the desirability of living in Minnesota vs living in Georgia.


So Minnesota has no discernible advantages over a regional school like say UGA, Wake, or Alabama ? Thats what I'm trying to get at.


In my somewhat ignorant, TLS-brainwashed opinion, any advantages are probably marginal. I think it's possible that a few more coastal/big city firms might sniff around UMN, but nothing too substantial. So, really, it again becomes a question of which region you'd prefer/debt control.


I'm going to bump this in case a few more people have thoughts about what I've highlighted in red...I'm seriously considering Minnesota and have heard a few different things about its reach and would like to hear more if anyone has any perspectives...

Sandro
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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby Sandro » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:51 pm

I mean if you look at the schools that it has hung around the t20 with over the years, most have atleast some "national" reach, as much national reach that outside the T17 or so can have. Is Minnesota just a victim of its location ?

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ThomasMN
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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby ThomasMN » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:07 pm

Minnesotans would not agree!!

The thing is that the U, as we Minnesotans refer to the University of Minnesota, is a public school and tends to have a great deal of Minnesotans in the class. Most of which want to practice law in Minnesota. If they didn't they would go to a different school. That being said there are not so many big law firms in Minnesota, but a lot of mid-sized firms around the Twin Cities. The top of the class can find themselves headed off to NYC, Chicago, etc. Also, Making 100K in the Twin Cities is "more" than making 160K in any of the big markets.

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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby Sandro » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:39 pm

ThomasMN wrote:Minnesotans would not agree!!

The thing is that the U, as we Minnesotans refer to the University of Minnesota, is a public school and tends to have a great deal of Minnesotans in the class. Most of which want to practice law in Minnesota. If they didn't they would go to a different school. That being said there are not so many big law firms in Minnesota, but a lot of mid-sized firms around the Twin Cities. The top of the class can find themselves headed off to NYC, Chicago, etc. Also, Making 100K in the Twin Cities is "more" than making 160K in any of the big markets.


Okay - so Minnesota places well in Minnesota. And the top of the class can move out of market. That describes a lot of T30 schools. What I'm trying to ask is that with Minnesota's consistent T20+/- ranking does it differ in any way employment wise from say a regional T1 like UGA, Wake, or Alabama ?

According to LST UGA reports more salary info % for C/O 2008 than Minn and their salary quartiles are about the same/slightly higher. They both place about the same NLJ250. I'm asking why Minnesota's #'s seem to match up with a strictly regional school like UGA yet its ranked alongside schools that do moderately better than a strictly regional school. BU/Emory/ND all post much better NLJ250 numbers.

crit_racer
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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby crit_racer » Sat Mar 12, 2011 8:11 pm

Sandro wrote:
ThomasMN wrote:Minnesotans would not agree!!

The thing is that the U, as we Minnesotans refer to the University of Minnesota, is a public school and tends to have a great deal of Minnesotans in the class. Most of which want to practice law in Minnesota. If they didn't they would go to a different school. That being said there are not so many big law firms in Minnesota, but a lot of mid-sized firms around the Twin Cities. The top of the class can find themselves headed off to NYC, Chicago, etc. Also, Making 100K in the Twin Cities is "more" than making 160K in any of the big markets.


Okay - so Minnesota places well in Minnesota. And the top of the class can move out of market. That describes a lot of T30 schools. What I'm trying to ask is that with Minnesota's consistent T20+/- ranking does it differ in any way employment wise from say a regional T1 like UGA, Wake, or Alabama ?

According to LST UGA reports more salary info % for C/O 2008 than Minn and their salary quartiles are about the same/slightly higher. They both place about the same NLJ250. I'm asking why Minnesota's #'s seem to match up with a strictly regional school like UGA yet its ranked alongside schools that do moderately better than a strictly regional school. BU/Emory/ND all post much better NLJ250 numbers.


As I'm sure you are aware, there are a lot of factors that go into USNWR rankings. Another poster alluded to some of these (large law library, etc), but having a big law library doesn't mean shit about jobs.

I'm having a very similar debate in my cycle about Emory and WUSTL. They both have the potential for national placement, but I want to make sure I'm okay w/ ending up in ATL/StL if I'm going to go there and then any sort of nat'l mobility will be a pleasant surprise.

As far as how it compares to UGA, I really don't know. look at firm profiles in NY/CA/DC and see who is more represented

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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby Sandro » Sat Mar 12, 2011 9:04 pm

crit_racer wrote:
Sandro wrote:
ThomasMN wrote:Minnesotans would not agree!!

The thing is that the U, as we Minnesotans refer to the University of Minnesota, is a public school and tends to have a great deal of Minnesotans in the class. Most of which want to practice law in Minnesota. If they didn't they would go to a different school. That being said there are not so many big law firms in Minnesota, but a lot of mid-sized firms around the Twin Cities. The top of the class can find themselves headed off to NYC, Chicago, etc. Also, Making 100K in the Twin Cities is "more" than making 160K in any of the big markets.


Okay - so Minnesota places well in Minnesota. And the top of the class can move out of market. That describes a lot of T30 schools. What I'm trying to ask is that with Minnesota's consistent T20+/- ranking does it differ in any way employment wise from say a regional T1 like UGA, Wake, or Alabama ?

According to LST UGA reports more salary info % for C/O 2008 than Minn and their salary quartiles are about the same/slightly higher. They both place about the same NLJ250. I'm asking why Minnesota's #'s seem to match up with a strictly regional school like UGA yet its ranked alongside schools that do moderately better than a strictly regional school. BU/Emory/ND all post much better NLJ250 numbers.


As I'm sure you are aware, there are a lot of factors that go into USNWR rankings. Another poster alluded to some of these (large law library, etc), but having a big law library doesn't mean shit about jobs.

I'm having a very similar debate in my cycle about Emory and WUSTL. They both have the potential for national placement, but I want to make sure I'm okay w/ ending up in ATL/StL if I'm going to go there and then any sort of nat'l mobility will be a pleasant surprise.

As far as how it compares to UGA, I really don't know. look at firm profiles in NY/CA/DC and see who is more represented


I know. I'm not really concerned about either schools placement in say NY CA or DC. I want to go to a school with the best employment prospects, whether it be in its home market or surrounding markets.

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ThomasMN
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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby ThomasMN » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:11 pm

If you look around TLS most people will say that unless it is T-14 it is nothing but a regional school. Some will say that Vanderbilt is national and I have heard some mutterings of Notre Dame being the same, but in the end pretty much everything below the t-14 is just a showing of regional dominance. Think of it like this, the University of Minnesota dominates its local market a lot more than UGA dominates the market in Georgia. If you look at a lot of the big names around the state, Minnesota, you see they are from the University of Minnesota.

Plus, Minnesota borders Wisconsin, Iowa, and the Dakotas. Wisconsin and Iowa both have fairly good law schools, so there really isn't a "need" for Minnesota grads outside of Minnesota. Now, I will say that I am fairly certain that Minnesota places better into some of the more presitigous clerkships etc.

If you want to practice in Georgia, GO TO UGA. I'm curious why you didn't apply to Emory or why Minnesota would give you a 1/2 tuition scholarship and Emory would turn you down. You have to realize that a lot of "top 20" or "top 10" is all human psychology. There is no real objective reason why no.10 should be so much better than no.11. Its also why so many people refer to the T-14, because at that level there is a marked difference between those schools and all the rest.

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ThomasMN
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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby ThomasMN » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:14 pm

This also reminds me about a lot of topics that get discussed on TLS. Namely, why some schools have the rank they do or have the reputation they do. For example, Vanderbilt has a "stronger" student body by the numbers then Cornell, yet are ranked below them. Lots of schools in the T-30 have stronger student bodies then Iowa, yet consistently rank below them.

I will say this, if you want to practice law in Minnesota, go to the University of Minnesota. If not, why on earth are you coming to the upper midwest!?!? Especially when you are as far south as Georgia.

Sandro
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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby Sandro » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:27 pm

ThomasMN wrote:If you look around TLS most people will say that unless it is T-14 it is nothing but a regional school. Some will say that Vanderbilt is national and I have heard some mutterings of Notre Dame being the same, but in the end pretty much everything below the t-14 is just a showing of regional dominance. Think of it like this, the University of Minnesota dominates its local market a lot more than UGA dominates the market in Georgia. If you look at a lot of the big names around the state, Minnesota, you see they are from the University of Minnesota.

Plus, Minnesota borders Wisconsin, Iowa, and the Dakotas. Wisconsin and Iowa both have fairly good law schools, so there really isn't a "need" for Minnesota grads outside of Minnesota. Now, I will say that I am fairly certain that Minnesota places better into some of the more presitigous clerkships etc.

If you want to practice in Georgia, GO TO UGA. I'm curious why you didn't apply to Emory or why Minnesota would give you a 1/2 tuition scholarship and Emory would turn you down. You have to realize that a lot of "top 20" or "top 10" is all human psychology. There is no real objective reason why no.10 should be so much better than no.11. Its also why so many people refer to the T-14, because at that level there is a marked difference between those schools and all the rest.


I understand the decreasing meaning of rankings outside the T14. My question all along has been to get a better understanding of UMNs overall placement as its NLJ numbers lag similarly ranked schools. I am not just focusing on NLJ250 but the overall job prospects coming out of UMN.

I have limited geographic preference, I applied to Emory but so far they have not admitted anyone under 3.0 non URM. I am from FL , have lived in GA, but am not drilled into any one market at this point. I also understand the challenges that arise when going to a non national school outside of your ties.

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ThomasMN
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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby ThomasMN » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:31 pm

Minnesota basically dominates Minnesota. The thing is that a lot of the firms around the Twin Cities are not in the NLJ 250, so a lot of Minnesota grads work in smaller firms. I think something like the top 20% can get jobs at the big firms in the Twin Cities and the top half of the class work for the other firms around the cities. Personally, all the Minnesota grads I know have jobs and those are people from the bottom half of their class to the top 5% of their class.

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ThomasMN
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Re: Minnesota ?

Postby ThomasMN » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:32 pm

One small thing that I know some people don't like about Minnesota is that every class is curved and thats not the case at every law school.




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