St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

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btr77
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St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby btr77 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:17 pm

How does St. John's compare to schools like SHU, Brooklyn, or Hofstra? I have full tuition to both St. John's and Hofstra (though I've pretty much ruled out L.I.), 35,000 to SHU and am awaiting an offer from Brooklyn which I assume to be in the lesser end of SH offer's ballpark (20,000 or so realistic?/ 163,3.6). That being said, I am born and raised NJ, have worked in DC for the last 3 years, and looking to head back to the metro area for school. I have no real intention of pursuing NYC biglaw, unless of course my grades are there, and would be content in pursuing a top NJ firm, clerkship, or continuing my work in the government.

Right now I am leaning toward SHU. It is convenient, I was impressed at the open house, and despite what is frequently said on these boards it seemed to be a solid establishment (with an obvious emphasis on scholarship appeal). However, lately I have been giving more thought to St. John's and I really don't know all that much about it. I am in the process of setting up a visit, but I have reservations. I get the feeling that it is very difficult for St. John's to be competitive in the saturated NY market, so my concern is whether a SJU diploma will be as competitive in the NJ market compared to SH, or even in the government realm for that matter. The rankings have both schools neck and neck, although SJ's rise shot up drastically in the last year.

All things equal, each is probably a good choice. But, does my NJ/FEDGOV focus lend itself to SH? Even while leaving 30-40k on the table? Is Brooklyn still better than all of them?

I'm anxious to here what you all may think, especially some St. John's 1 or 2L's out there.

Thanks a lot guys


SHU - 35,000 per; top 50% stip. If below 50%, non-redeemable
SJU - Full Tution, top 40% stip. Below reduces to 80%, 60%, etc.
Hofstra - " "
Brooklyn - Waiting but assuming 15,000-25,000 per

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Robespierre
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby Robespierre » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:32 pm

You said born and raised in Jersey ... what's your living expense situation? Can you live with family if you go to SHU? Are you too far away to commute to Brooklyn or SJU? COL is a big factor.

And why no Rutgers?

tjs86
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby tjs86 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:48 pm

btr77 wrote:How does St. John's compare to schools like SHU, Brooklyn, or Hofstra? I have full tuition to both St. John's and Hofstra (though I've pretty much ruled out L.I.), 35,000 to SHU and am awaiting an offer from Brooklyn which I assume to be in the lesser end of SH offer's ballpark (20,000 or so realistic?/ 163,3.6). That being said, I am born and raised NJ, have worked in DC for the last 3 years, and looking to head back to the metro area for school. I have no real intention of pursuing NYC biglaw, unless of course my grades are there, and would be content in pursuing a top NJ firm, clerkship, or continuing my work in the government.

Right now I am leaning toward SHU. It is convenient, I was impressed at the open house, and despite what is frequently said on these boards it seemed to be a solid establishment (with an obvious emphasis on scholarship appeal). However, lately I have been giving more thought to St. John's and I really don't know all that much about it. I am in the process of setting up a visit, but I have reservations. I get the feeling that it is very difficult for St. John's to be competitive in the saturated NY market, so my concern is whether a SJU diploma will be as competitive in the NJ market compared to SH, or even in the government realm for that matter. The rankings have both schools neck and neck, although SJ's rise shot up drastically in the last year.

All things equal, each is probably a good choice. But, does my NJ/FEDGOV focus lend itself to SH? Even while leaving 30-40k on the table? Is Brooklyn still better than all of them?

I'm anxious to here what you all may think, especially some St. John's 1 or 2L's out there.

Thanks a lot guys


SHU - 35,000 per; top 50% stip. If below 50%, non-redeemable
SJU - Full Tution, top 40% stip. Below reduces to 80%, 60%, etc.
Hofstra - " "
Brooklyn - Waiting but assuming 15,000-25,000 per



I am from NJ and weighing essentially the same offers as you (less Hofstra - didn't apply).

I am leaning BLS due to location (I now live in NYC) and some other personal factors, but I was really impressed by SHU as well. I liked the programs, the facility, the professors I met and so on.

I live in Queens right now, and I have to say that STJ's location is the biggest factor in the school being a distant third for me despite offering the best deal. I'd rather have slightly larger loans, as most of my debt is coming from living expenses anyway, while living somewhere that isn't an hour or more from Manhattan/home in NJ, has a subway stop within a few minute walk, etc. Just the trip to visit campus was such a pain that I felt like I'd be on a island the whole time.

That said, that may not be the deciding issue for you.

btr77
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby btr77 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:00 pm

To Robespierre: I have been living in D.C. for the last few years and as such lost my in state residency for Rutgers. I still contemplated it, but to be honest just couldn't bring myself to apply as an out of state. As far as my living situation, I am not planning on living at home. I've rented here with my fiancee while working and intend to do the same back home. I have saved enough so that living expenses won't really be a problem for the first year or two. I plan on living close enough to transportation to allow an "easy" commute to NYC. All in all though, I think my COL in NJ will be lower in terms of rent and day to day expenses.

to TJS: thanks for the insight. I assumed getting to Queen's wouldn't be a breeze, though I would consider living in that vicinity should I go there. If you think its a pain WHILE living there I can only imagine how rough it is. Do you know anything about the Law school program at all? Also, and maybe it is simply location, but what is selling you on Brooklyn at this point? At least for me it will certainly be my most expensive option as far as tuition/living. Is it that much better of a program? I, like you, am more than willing to shell out the extra if it meant putting myself in a better situation, but I am having such a hard time figuring that out.

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Robespierre
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby Robespierre » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:02 pm

I just typed a long response which then disappeared into thin air. Here's the short version: Since none of the schools will leave you in good shape to get a good job in this tough market, you need to limit your costs and minimize debt. You've made good strides towards limiting costs by saving up for living expenses; now finish it off by getting the best tuition deal. That looks like SJU, because their scholly is bigger than SHU's and that SHU all-or-nothing contingency is TERRIBLE.

SJU is no picnic; highhanded administration, nondescript location, sixth-best in its city. But I'd give it the slight nod due to $$$. Best outcome would be a cushy scholly at Brooklyn.

jmhar3
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby jmhar3 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:25 pm

btr77, I am in the same situation as you, with almost the same stats. SJU and BLS, at least from my research, are basically the same. Unless saving 20 minutes commuting to manhattan/jersey is worth the difference in tuition/living expenses, I'd say go to SJU.

Also SJU, according to 2005 data, places better into the NLJ 250 than BLS. See http://www.law.com/pdf/nlj/20080414empl ... trends.pdf

I cannot find data for 2010 for SJU. According to Brooklyn Law's website they should be #34 on NLJ 250 Placement, I presume that SJU is not that much different. Also SJU placed 2 graduates at Cravath in 2010, whereas Brooklyn has not done that in a while. Both schools have approx the same alumni in the NYC area at great firms.

The thing is, to get a job coming from either of these schools, you have to be in top 20% or 10%. And you probably have approximately an equal chance of doing so at each school. So I suggest minimize debt as much as possible, in case you don't make bank after law school, and attend SJU.

Another thing to consider, it seems BLS has given out most of its big scholarships, e.g. Prince, according to another TLS forum. I haven't heard about my scholarship amount yet. Worse, the financial aid option under web advisor is not coming up. So I have little hope that BLS's scholarship offer will be comparable to SJU.

btr77
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby btr77 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:45 pm

Thanks everyone. My only issue is that I am not really trying to pursue the NYC market, and I'm wondering what sort of pull Brooklyn or SJU has in NJ. JMHAR3 touched on this a little, but my main question is wondering how any of these schools stack up against Seton Hall in the NJ market. I'll buy that all would more or less give me equal footing in pursuing a fedgov position, but should I decide to go NJ law, even with still probably owing 40k, the cost, convenience, and networking advantages of Seton Hall still seems to push it to the top. Am I crazy to think that way? Or more simply, (fully realizing I'll need to be top 20-10%), I feel as if it will be easier to land a NJ job out of SH than it would be to land a NY or NJ job out of Brooklyn or STJ. Is that way off base?

Also, in terms of the all or nothing SHU, and in no way trying to be coy, if I can't crack the top 50% at SH I have no business being in law school at all and would more than likely withdraw.


Just for the hell of it, I also have acceptances at Temple, American, Villanova with no resounding financial offers, waitlists at Mason and Fordham, and waiting to hear on Cardozo. Don't know if any of these are any better.

tjs86
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby tjs86 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:57 pm

btr77 wrote:Thanks everyone. My only issue is that I am not really trying to pursue the NYC market, and I'm wondering what sort of pull Brooklyn or SJU has in NJ. JMHAR3 touched on this a little, but my main question is wondering how any of these schools stack up against Seton Hall in the NJ market. I'll buy that all would more or less give me equal footing in pursuing a fedgov position, but should I decide to go NJ law, even with still probably owing 40k, the cost, convenience, and networking advantages of Seton Hall still seems to push it to the top. Am I crazy to think that way? Or more simply, (fully realizing I'll need to be top 20-10%), I feel as if it will be easier to land a NJ job out of SH than it would be to land a NY or NJ job out of Brooklyn or STJ. Is that way off base?

Also, in terms of the all or nothing SHU, and in no way trying to be coy, if I can't crack the top 50% at SH I have no business being in law school at all and would more than likely withdraw.


Just for the hell of it, I also have acceptances at Temple, American, Villanova with no resounding financial offers, waitlists at Mason and Fordham, and waiting to hear on Cardozo. Don't know if any of these are any better.



I would also choose the easiest financial decision, but living with a fiancee/spouse/significant other is a roadblock for living in the STJ area (without paying for a car) for me. BLS and SHU offer better opportunities when making decisions for more than one person.

Bottom line: go with the bottom line, unless other factors outweigh the price issue. I don't think anyone on this, or any other, site can really give you anything better than rough odds on job prospects, so I don't think I can really give you firm guidance beyond that.

btr77
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby btr77 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:00 pm

JMHAR, what was the other forum regarding Brooklyn scholarships?

jmhar3
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby jmhar3 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:19 pm

It was from the Brooklyn Law 2011 Cycle forum. http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... &start=475

btr77
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby btr77 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:24 pm

Thanks

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Justathought
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby Justathought » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:36 pm

Its probably too late to apply now, but so you know, Rutgers offers instate tuition to any student who - 1. Signs a 12 month lease in NJ before the start of classes. 2. Lives in on-campus housing. 3. Lives with a relative and gets some sort of letter stating that fact.

Rule11
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby Rule11 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:45 pm

btr77 wrote: I have no real intention of pursuing NYC biglaw, unless of course my grades are there, and would be content in pursuing a top NJ firm, clerkship, or continuing my work in the government.


If you're certain you want to go to law school, go to SJU and drop out if you lose the scholarship. The three options you list that would make you content will be available to you only if you're in the top 15% or so of your class at those schools (and far from guaranteed, even then). Nobody (really, NOBODY) is guaranteed top 15% at any school in any situation, so you're rolling the dice.

By the way, I'm sure you'll say (or at least think to yourself) that your current job will make it possible for you to just waltz back into federal government work as an attorney, but that is rarely the case for people I know who have tried it.

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Robespierre
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby Robespierre » Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:11 pm

btr77 wrote:Thanks everyone. My only issue is that I am not really trying to pursue the NYC market, and I'm wondering what sort of pull Brooklyn or SJU has in NJ. JMHAR3 touched on this a little, but my main question is wondering how any of these schools stack up against Seton Hall in the NJ market.


Oops sorry, didn't realize NJ was your clear first choice of a place to work. I have no data or personal knowledge, but seems like SHU would clearly place better there than SJU or Brooklyn.

So I guess that's your best option, especially since you'd be comfortable there as a Jersey guy. But again, that all-or-nothing stip is UGLY.

champ33
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby champ33 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:39 pm

As the above poster said you made a mistake by not applying to Rutgers. Everyone gets in-state tuition for all three years, as long as you move to NJ before the semester starts. In addition it's from all I've experienced a more reputable and connected school in NJ and NY than SHU, although I guess that can be debated. I'm also in with full tuition to SJU and waiting for Brooklyn's offer... for me, if Brooklyn matches I will be going there, if not it's going to be close between SJU, Rutgers and BLS.

btr77
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Re: St. John's Info Needed Please (SHU/BROOKLYN/HOFSTRA)

Postby btr77 » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:39 am

Good advice all, I appreciate it. That's too bad about Rutgers, I wish I would have done a little more homework. Though, even with the stipulation, after scholarship SH is still going to be cheaper even if not by much. Still, this is really going to be a tough decision, just hope I make the right one. That St. John's offer is just SO hard to ignore, but I'm just scared of getting trapped in that NYC market and not having an easy transition to NJ. Oh well, good luck to everyone.




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