Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w/ $20k)

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nylawyer488
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Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w/ $20k)

Postby nylawyer488 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:35 pm

Of these schools, which is the best choice?

Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w $20k)

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Justathought
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Re: Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (20k)

Postby Justathought » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:39 pm

nylawyer488 wrote:Of these schools, which is the best choice?

Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w $20k)


I'm voting Seton Hall, assuming sticker at three of the schools and 20k at Pace. Better NLJ250 placement than the other options, and a nice building very close to Manhattan. Without knowing more about your interests and preferences that's all I can go on.

RW65
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Re: Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w/ $20k)

Postby RW65 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:40 pm

nylawyer488 wrote:Of these schools, which is the best choice?

Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w $20k)


I know it is said everyday on these boards, but none. Maybe Pace, if you're living at home and have only minor expenses.

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Justathought
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Re: Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w/ $20k)

Postby Justathought » Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:46 pm

RW65 wrote:
nylawyer488 wrote:Of these schools, which is the best choice?

Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w $20k)


I know it is said everyday on these boards, but none. Maybe Pace, if you're living at home and have only minor expenses.


Hey, even living at home Pace will rack up at least 90k in debt. Employment prospects out of Pace are just unreal, might as well just bite the bullet and go for the extra 60k in debt. What difference does the amount of debt mean, if there is no ability to pay any of it?

I think the first three choices at least give him a fighting chance of securing a job, at which point IBR kicks in and he can make payments, meager as they may be. I'm not sure a J.D. from Pace puts him in any sort of position to secure legal employment.

nylawyer488
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Re: Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w/ $20k)

Postby nylawyer488 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:00 pm

Well, I'd like to work in or around New York when I graduate. Seton Hall and St. John's are the highest ranked of the four, but those rankings do change every year. Pace is the closest to my home, less than 15 minute drive. Whereas with the other three schools I'd really have to live there and I'm not sure about the areas surrounding Hofstra, St. John's and Seton Hall, while I am very familiar with the White Plains area of Pace. The money is definitely a big factor too, but the rankings seem to be so important to so many people (and firms as well).

I'm wondering if the slight differences between the rankings of these schools would actually dramtically alter my odds at a good paying job out of school (not necessarily big law)

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Peekay80
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Re: Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w/ $20k)

Postby Peekay80 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:12 pm

I couldn't pay sticker at any of these. Can you get a job in the NYC area from all of these schools? Sure, it happens. To say you'll get the greatest job ever would be a gross exaggeration. I have a friend, top 10% at Fordham, who ended up doing lower level legal work (IE doc review, malpractice, etc). But, then again, what is your idea of a good job? Only you can make that decision. if you are up for any job, then Pace might be your answer since you'd be able to reduce your cost of living significantly.

I got into St Johns and really liked the feel of the school over the others you mentioned. Hofstra felt too limited to Long Island. Have you considered Rutgers-Newark? If you are going to go regional this would be a difficult one to overlook given the tuition benefits.

I'm not sure about Seton Hall, but I'd do more research on their employment stats that just NLJ250 from a few years ago. A lot of those clerkships they send students to are not the prestigious Federal/District Court ones that are so enticing to a 0L.

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Wholigan
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Re: Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w/ $20k)

Postby Wholigan » Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:27 pm

nylawyer488 wrote:Well, I'd like to work in or around New York when I graduate. Seton Hall and St. John's are the highest ranked of the four, but those rankings do change every year. Pace is the closest to my home, less than 15 minute drive. Whereas with the other three schools I'd really have to live there and I'm not sure about the areas surrounding Hofstra, St. John's and Seton Hall, while I am very familiar with the White Plains area of Pace. The money is definitely a big factor too, but the rankings seem to be so important to so many people (and firms as well).

I'm wondering if the slight differences between the rankings of these schools would actually dramtically alter my odds at a good paying job out of school (not necessarily big law)


I don't know if you are talking about the other three to the exclusion of Pace, but it doesn't seem like you are. You do know that Pace is a TTTT and that is not a slight difference in ranking from a TT, nor it is likely to change anytime soon, right? Not saying that things are rosy T1 or TT grads, like Peekay points out....

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Robespierre
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Re: Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w/ $20k)

Postby Robespierre » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:09 pm

Wholigan wrote:
I don't know if you are talking about the other three to the exclusion of Pace, but it doesn't seem like you are. You do know that Pace is a TTTT and that is not a slight difference in ranking from a TT, nor it is likely to change anytime soon, right? Not saying that things are rosy T1 or TT grads, like Peekay points out....


Disagree with this. In this envrionment, graduates of ALL these non-elite schools are extreme long shots for meaningful legal jobs right out of school, unless they are at the very top of their class (which they can't count on being) or have their own connections (in which case choice of school isn't crucial anyway). The differences are indeed "slight"; a 4% chance of a good job is only slightly better than a 2% chance, even though it's double.

So if I were the OP I'd go to Pace. It saves him 60K or more in COL since he can live at home and another 60K via the scholarship. That's huge.

The bad hiring environment makes this type of choice easier than it'd be otherwise: Take the money. When you have to line up for un- or under-employment with others, you might as well do it with less debt.

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Wholigan
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Re: Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w/ $20k)

Postby Wholigan » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:32 pm

Robespierre wrote:
Wholigan wrote:
I don't know if you are talking about the other three to the exclusion of Pace, but it doesn't seem like you are. You do know that Pace is a TTTT and that is not a slight difference in ranking from a TT, nor it is likely to change anytime soon, right? Not saying that things are rosy T1 or TT grads, like Peekay points out....


Disagree with this. In this envrionment, graduates of ALL these non-elite schools are extreme long shots for meaningful legal jobs right out of school, unless they are at the very top of their class (which they can't count on being) or have their own connections (in which case choice of school isn't crucial anyway). The differences are indeed "slight"; a 4% chance of a good job is only slightly better than a 2% chance, even though it's double.

So if I were the OP I'd go to Pace. It saves him 60K or more in COL since he can live at home and another 60K via the scholarship. That's huge.

The bad hiring environment makes this type of choice easier than it'd be otherwise: Take the money. When you have to line up for un- or under-employment with others, you might as well do it with less debt.


I didn't tell him not to go to Pace - there is no way I would pay sticker at any of those schools. I just informed him that there is not a "slight" difference in the rankings, which I will stand by. In it's heyday Pace placed maybe 3% into NLJ250, while St. John's and Seton Hall have placed > 10%. It's still a small fraction, but tripling your chances is not slight. Are Vandy/Texas only "slightly" better than Seton Hall, since they place 30% as opposed to 10%? I would bet the T2 schools will also give him along the lines of a 2-3x better chance of placing into midlaw or a decent government position as well.

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ndirish2010
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Re: Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w/ $20k)

Postby ndirish2010 » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:09 pm

None.

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Robespierre
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Re: Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w/ $20k)

Postby Robespierre » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:36 pm

Wholigan wrote:
Robespierre wrote:
Wholigan wrote:
I didn't tell him not to go to Pace - there is no way I would pay sticker at any of those schools. I just informed him that there is not a "slight" difference in the rankings, which I will stand by. In it's heyday Pace placed maybe 3% into NLJ250, while St. John's and Seton Hall have placed > 10%. It's still a small fraction, but tripling your chances is not slight. Are Vandy/Texas only "slightly" better than Seton Hall, since they place 30% as opposed to 10%? I would bet the T2 schools will also give him along the lines of a 2-3x better chance of placing into midlaw or a decent government position as well.


We're not in the "heyday" anymore. And tripling your chances IS slight if it's 1% vs. 3%.

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Wholigan
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Re: Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w/ $20k)

Postby Wholigan » Tue Mar 08, 2011 3:55 pm

Robespierre wrote:
Wholigan wrote:
Robespierre wrote:
Wholigan wrote:
I didn't tell him not to go to Pace - there is no way I would pay sticker at any of those schools. I just informed him that there is not a "slight" difference in the rankings, which I will stand by. In it's heyday Pace placed maybe 3% into NLJ250, while St. John's and Seton Hall have placed > 10%. It's still a small fraction, but tripling your chances is not slight. Are Vandy/Texas only "slightly" better than Seton Hall, since they place 30% as opposed to 10%? I would bet the T2 schools will also give him along the lines of a 2-3x better chance of placing into midlaw or a decent government position as well.


We're not in the "heyday" anymore. And tripling your chances IS slight if it's 1% vs. 3%.


I have trouble believing the number is 3%. In this well-known report:

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... OLS_REPORT

Rutgers-Newark has 10.85% NLJ250 placement, and Seton Hall has always been considered a peer school. While Rutgers is the next-to-last school listed, what rationale do you have for thinking that Seton Hall is significanly lower? Or St. Johns for that matter?

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Robespierre
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Re: Hofstra, St. John's, Seton Hall, or Pace (w/ $20k)

Postby Robespierre » Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:33 pm

The 2010 figures are for people who did 2L OCI in Aug.-Sept. 2008 when the rescission hadn't fully hit. While admittedly it's speculation, I bet Rutgers' 10.8 is now down to 7 or 8. And SHU and SJU aren't even on the list, so they are presumably lower still, maybe at 5 or 6. While I probably overstated the case at 3% (apologies), here's my point: I don't think the difference between a 1-2% chance at a good job and a 5-6% chance is worth the 100K or so that OP could save by going to Pace (20K/yr scholly plus three years living expenses).

That's the issue, anyway ... good luck OP.




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