WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

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Grizz
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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby Grizz » Wed Mar 09, 2011 3:12 am

romothesavior wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Vandy got murdered in the most recent statistics. They placed something like 36%?

Uh, how is that getting murdered? Once you add in clerkships, they're looking at 40%+ NLJ 250 placement. Throw in prestigious PI and government, you're looking at half the class with a darn good legal gig lined up. Sure, it's no T14, but that is a pretty good number for a non-T14 ITE.

I'd say if you really want to avoid debt, WUSTL. But make no mistake about it, Vandy is the much better school for placement. I'd scratch Cornell, but I'm debt-averse and hate NYC.


Also this. I calculated that a full half or more of Vandy's 2010 class got NLJ250, Article III, BIDFED, or other prestigious PI/govt. This doesn't count that scads of solid midsize firms.

Without the benefit of govt. loans as an international, I'd be hesitant to pay full price for Cornell, I know that much.

findafish
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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby findafish » Wed Mar 09, 2011 1:07 pm

Thanks for the replies.
Now things are getting complicated.
Maybe I should make a poll~~~~~

FiveSermon
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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby FiveSermon » Fri Mar 11, 2011 9:53 pm

rad law wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Because the year before that they placed over 47%. A 10% drop is pretty harsh.

But you can't look at these things in a snap-shot. A month ago, everyone was saying how great Vandy was and how they had weathered the ITE storm. Now they're getting murdered?


Schools in the south got murdered. Look at Duke and Vandy. Duked dropped well over 10% also.


People bid before ITE and received summer offers before the scale of ITE was apparent. The numbers reflect southern no-offers, not lack of placement power. The NLJ250 #s this year are fairly useless.


Well southern no offers but no northern no offers? If anything it shows how weak and vulnerable the markets where Vandy and Duke place primarily are compared to more NYC oriented schools which IS something that is useful to take into account.

Class of 2010 should have done better than class of 2011. If that's any indication then Duke/Vandy are in for a wild ride.

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Grizz
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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby Grizz » Fri Mar 11, 2011 10:23 pm

FiveSermon wrote:Well southern no offers but no northern no offers? If anything it shows how weak and vulnerable the markets where Vandy and Duke place primarily are compared to more NYC oriented schools which IS something that is useful to take into account.

Class of 2010 should have done better than class of 2011. If that's any indication then Duke/Vandy are in for a wild ride.


In the main NLJ thread Desert Fox posted a link to offer rates of a bunch of markets. The Southern markets were universally worse. Atlanta was the second worst at 42% offers, behind Ohio (41% offers).

The problem with 2010 and 2011 data is that people didn't have much information, if at all, about where to bid. Especially in 2010. You bid before ITE and got your offer before ITE, and all of a sudden, boom - no offered. The second largest market for Vandy grads is NYC. People from Vandy can get jobs in NYC. But when you place your bids on ATL in summer 2008, pre ITE, and get your only offers in ATL before the scale of ITE became apparent, then got no-offered, you're gonna get weird data in the aggregate that doesn't accurately reflect job-getting ability from these schools.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby FiveSermon » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:08 am

rad law wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Well southern no offers but no northern no offers? If anything it shows how weak and vulnerable the markets where Vandy and Duke place primarily are compared to more NYC oriented schools which IS something that is useful to take into account.

Class of 2010 should have done better than class of 2011. If that's any indication then Duke/Vandy are in for a wild ride.


In the main NLJ thread Desert Fox posted a link to offer rates of a bunch of markets. The Southern markets were universally worse. Atlanta was the second worst at 42% offers, behind Ohio (41% offers).

The problem with 2010 and 2011 data is that people didn't have much information, if at all, about where to bid. Especially in 2010. You bid before ITE and got your offer before ITE, and all of a sudden, boom - no offered. The second largest market for Vandy grads is NYC. People from Vandy can get jobs in NYC. But when you place your bids on ATL in summer 2008, pre ITE, and get your only offers in ATL before the scale of ITE became apparent, then got no-offered, you're gonna get weird data in the aggregate that doesn't accurately reflect job-getting ability from these schools.


Wasn't most of 2008 ITE? And anyways doesn't this show how horrible southern markets are which is important once you consider that these are the primary markets for most southern schools.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby Rawlsian » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:17 am

If you want NYC biglaw, and debt doesn't matter to you, then Cornell might make sense. Otherwise, this is a no-brainer for Vandy. You're talking about a 100k swing for peer schools.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:22 am

I find it so funny that people are ripping Vandy as being destroyed ITE when just a year ago, Vandy was the "sexy" school for surviving the ITE monster.

TLS... the only thing more fickle than my ex-girlfriend.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby FiveSermon » Sat Mar 12, 2011 1:35 am

romothesavior wrote:I find it so funny that people are ripping Vandy as being destroyed ITE when just a year ago, Vandy was the "sexy" school for surviving the ITE monster.

TLS... the only thing more fickle than my ex-girlfriend.


Lol? Yeah one of the biggest financial disasters in modern history happens and we see some of it's early effects and we are being fickle. Yeah. Fickle.

We should just run around with blindfolds on and look at pre ITE stats instead.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby drylo » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:30 am

FiveSermon wrote:
rad law wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Well southern no offers but no northern no offers? If anything it shows how weak and vulnerable the markets where Vandy and Duke place primarily are compared to more NYC oriented schools which IS something that is useful to take into account.

Class of 2010 should have done better than class of 2011. If that's any indication then Duke/Vandy are in for a wild ride.


In the main NLJ thread Desert Fox posted a link to offer rates of a bunch of markets. The Southern markets were universally worse. Atlanta was the second worst at 42% offers, behind Ohio (41% offers).

The problem with 2010 and 2011 data is that people didn't have much information, if at all, about where to bid. Especially in 2010. You bid before ITE and got your offer before ITE, and all of a sudden, boom - no offered. The second largest market for Vandy grads is NYC. People from Vandy can get jobs in NYC. But when you place your bids on ATL in summer 2008, pre ITE, and get your only offers in ATL before the scale of ITE became apparent, then got no-offered, you're gonna get weird data in the aggregate that doesn't accurately reflect job-getting ability from these schools.


Wasn't most of 2008 ITE? And anyways doesn't this show how horrible southern markets are which is important once you consider that these are the primary markets for most southern schools.


Dude, you are missing the point. Vandy doesn't place so many people into Southern markets because that is the only place that Vandy has cachet. Vandy places so many people into Southern markets because a lot of Southerners (who want to stay down south) go to Vandy. Vandy can (and does) place people into NY/DC/elsewhere. If you are dead set on practicing in NY, then why does it even matter to you how the Southern markets are doing?
Last edited by drylo on Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:52 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby FiveSermon » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:32 am

Because Vandy ain't national bro. When your primary market suffers more people resort to your secondary markets. Vandy's primary market was apparently destroyed so that means more people applying to secondary market from the same school which can only mean more competition for less spots.

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drylo
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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby drylo » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:35 am

FiveSermon wrote:Because Vandy ain't national bro. When your primary market suffers more people resort to your secondary markets. Vandy's primary market was apparently destroyed so that means more people applying to secondary market from the same school which can only mean more competition for less spots.


You just don't get it.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby FiveSermon » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:42 am

Yeah, Vandy doesn't place most of it's grads into the south because of self placement. That's like saying Cornell places most into NYC because of self placement but that they have a "cache" with DC. Vandy might have decent placing power for NYC but it's nowhere near what you see from NYC oriented schools.

This ain't cuz people didn't bid right bro. Most OCI's took place after the crash anyways. Stop attributing it to people bidding to southern firms instead of aiming for NYC.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby drylo » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:49 am

FiveSermon wrote:Yeah, Vandy doesn't place most of it's grads into the south because of self placement. That's like saying Cornell places most into NYC because of self placement but that they have a "cache" with DC. Vandy might have decent placing power for NYC but it's nowhere near what you see from NYC oriented schools.

This ain't cuz people didn't bid right bro. Most OCI's took place after the crash anyways. Stop attributing it to people bidding to southern firms instead of aiming for NYC.


You have no idea what you are talking about. Just go to Cornell and stop yapping about Vandy unless you are going to actually try to understand Vanderbilt students.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby FiveSermon » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:00 am

I'm not going to Cornell bro. Thinking about it but probably won't. But you go to Vandy. So what does that say?

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby drylo » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:04 am

FiveSermon wrote:I'm not going to Cornell bro. Thinking about it but probably won't. But you go to Vandy. So what does that say?


That I know what I am talking about.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby FiveSermon » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:07 am

drylo wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:I'm not going to Cornell bro. Thinking about it but probably won't. But you go to Vandy. So what does that say?


That I know what I am talking about.

Image

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby drylo » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:11 am

FiveSermon wrote:
drylo wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:I'm not going to Cornell bro. Thinking about it but probably won't. But you go to Vandy. So what does that say?


That I know what I am talking about.

Image


Alright. Enough of this. You know it's good when a 0L thinks he knows more about law schools in general, and my law school in particular, than I do. Keep on keeping on, chief.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby FiveSermon » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:13 am

drylo wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
drylo wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:I'm not going to Cornell bro. Thinking about it but probably won't. But you go to Vandy. So what does that say?


That I know what I am talking about.

Image


Alright. Enough of this. You know it's good when a 0L thinks he knows more about law schools in general, and my law school in particular, than I do. Keep on keeping on, chief.

Image

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby Grizz » Sat Mar 12, 2011 6:00 am

FiveSermon wrote:Yeah, Vandy doesn't place most of it's grads into the south because of self placement. That's like saying Cornell places most into NYC because of self placement but that they have a "cache" with DC. Vandy might have decent placing power for NYC but it's nowhere near what you see from NYC oriented schools.

This ain't cuz people didn't bid right bro. Most OCI's took place after the crash anyways. Stop attributing it to people bidding to southern firms instead of aiming for NYC.


Now I know you have no idea what you're talking about.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby Rawlsian » Sat Mar 12, 2011 11:44 am

FiveSermon wrote:Yeah, Vandy doesn't place most of it's grads into the south because of self placement. That's like saying Cornell places most into NYC because of self placement but that they have a "cache" with DC. Vandy might have decent placing power for NYC but it's nowhere near what you see from NYC oriented schools.

This ain't cuz people didn't bid right bro. Most OCI's took place after the crash anyways. Stop attributing it to people bidding to southern firms instead of aiming for NYC.


From reading this and the above posts, I think you have some basic misunderstandings about the 2008 placements (Vandy and Cornell), and about school reach in general (primary markets, ect). I'll address reach first.

It's hard to know which school places better in each region, but the number of firms from a region at each school's OCI can serve as a rough proxy for a school's placement power in that region. Above, I mentioned OP should consider Cornell if she/he wants NYC biglaw, not because of the NLJ go-to numbers, but because Cornell typically has 50-60 NLJ NYC firms at its OCI while Vandy only has around 20. However the schools are even, or the numbers are inverted, for every other city and region in the country.

I do think students select either Cornell or Vandy based where they want to work. The South East is generally Vandy's primary destination, but fewer than 50% of each graduating class (including 2010) stay in the SE; and the majority of employers at Vandy's OCI (2L) are from outside of the SE. Conversely, around 70% of Cornell grads head to NYC and a majority of the firms at Cornell's OCI are from NYC. All of this information is publicly available; so it makes sense to abstract that people choose these schools based on these desired outcomes, especially since a large chunk of students at both schools likely had both the Cornell or Vandy option.

In 2008, the offer rate in NYC, where most Cornell students went for SA, was dramatically higher than nearly every other city. Nearly 65% of Vandy students did their SA in the South or Midwest--regions that had offer rates below 50%. When the students bid during the summer, they didn't know what would happen in Sept and Oct, and they certainly didn't know the offer rates would decline in certain regions as markedly as they did.

Of course, even if Vandy students wanted to compensate for the low offer rates outside of NYC by bidding on NYC, they would have less access to NYC firms through OCI than Cornell. But I don't think that fact means that Cornell and Vandy are not peer schools. Both schools are still placing similarly in SA gigs--50% of the Vandy's class of 2010 had NLJ250 SA positions. Also keep in mind that that around 14% of Vandy's 2010 class are doing article III clerkships.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby pleasetryagain » Sat Mar 12, 2011 12:01 pm

rad law wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Yeah, Vandy doesn't place most of it's grads into the south because of self placement. That's like saying Cornell places most into NYC because of self placement but that they have a "cache" with DC. Vandy might have decent placing power for NYC but it's nowhere near what you see from NYC oriented schools.

This ain't cuz people didn't bid right bro. Most OCI's took place after the crash anyways. Stop attributing it to people bidding to southern firms instead of aiming for NYC.


Now I know you have no idea what you're talking about.


Listen man, he read some stuff on TLS posted by other 0Ls and the fact that he can ignorantly regurgitate it at will shows he DOES in fact know what he is talking about. Isn't it obvious that EVERYONE who goes to law school wants to work in NYC and would never ever bid on southern firms except grudgingly as a last resort.

But seriously, everyone itt should stop humoring this guys ignorance.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby TheFactor » Sat Mar 12, 2011 3:59 pm

FiveSermon wrote:Because Vandy ain't national bro. When your primary market suffers more people resort to your secondary markets. Vandy's primary market was apparently destroyed so that means more people applying to secondary market from the same school which can only mean more competition for less spots.

lol

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby Nogameisfair » Sat Mar 12, 2011 4:10 pm

findafish wrote:International, wonder which one is the best for me. Want to go big law, don't want to be in too much debt (if it is not worth it).


This seems like it makes Vandy the obvious answer here... I don't get all this flap about the NLJ numbers. One recruiting season doesn't mean that the world has changed drastically. Unless Cornell comes back with around 20k a year, I wouldn't even think about it.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby romothesavior » Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:49 am

Fivesermon is out to lunch. I still remember last year at this time everyone was saying Vandy was such a great school because the southern markets weathered the ITE storm better than others. Now one bad year and everyone thinks Vandy is a TTT. You can't view these numbers in a vacuum, and I have a feeling things could be shaken up a bit again in the next few years. That's how it goes, especially ITE.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, and unless you are absolutely set on NYC, I think Vandy and Cornell will present pretty similar prospects to students.

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Re: WUSTL(135K)vs Vandy(84K)vsCornell(sticker) ?

Postby Moxie » Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:04 am

romothesavior wrote:Fivesermon is out to lunch. I still remember last year at this time everyone was saying Vandy was such a great school because the southern markets weathered the ITE storm better than others. Now one bad year and everyone thinks Vandy is a TTT. You can't view these numbers in a vacuum, and I have a feeling things could be shaken up a bit again in the next few years. That's how it goes, especially ITE.

The truth is somewhere in the middle, and unless you are absolutely set on NYC, I think Vandy and Cornell will present pretty similar prospects to students.


+1. Another example of how TLS relies too much on isolated stats.

OP, I gotta vote Vandy since you'll be in about half as much debt coming out, with only slightly lessened Biglaw prospects. I think if you want to maximize Biglaw chances (including NY), than go Cornell, but I don't think this risk is worth 100k.




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