serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

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FuManChusco
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby FuManChusco » Fri Mar 04, 2011 5:25 pm

I think you should go to Atlanta's John Marshall. The Atlanta economy is bustling right now and you will easily be able to get a great job. Probably a 200k+ salary since there is a very high demand for attorneys in the state of Georgia. Taking out 150k-200k worth of debt won't be a big problem as you'll be able to pay it off in a few years. If you graduate in the top 5% as you predict, and this is likely considering your high gpa, then you will probably be able to transfer to Yale. This is a much easier process than retaking the lsat so I think you're making the right decision by moving forward with your life. Any other questions?

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Barbie
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby Barbie » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:48 pm

feminista wrote:The 6 I have been accepted into request initial seat deposits by early April. So I dont think I have time to hear back from my "waits." My GPA (Philosophy Major) was a 3.9. However, my LSAT was only a 150 (major anxiety). So this is what I ended up with. Any suggestions on which one to choose? California vs. Northeast. I appreciate any feedback.



I don't think anyone who can't answer a simple and direct question is going to end up being a good lawyer :D

Guys, she asked a very direct and specific question: which to choose out of the schools she listed. She did not ask what YOU would do, she did not ask whether she should retake the LSAT, and she did not ask for your assessment of her. She asked for, at most, a name of a school from the list above and the reason why you chose it.

If you don't have an answer for her, then why post in the thread? Maybe one or two of you can harp "retake" if you feel it necessary, but those of you who flock to a thread just to reiterate what others are already saying could probably find better use of your opinions elsewhere.
Last edited by Barbie on Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:49 pm

feminista wrote:I already took it twice. Retaking is not an option either. I dont mind not attending 1, 2, or even a 3 tier school. Especially since I am fairly confident to graduate at the top 5% at a 3/4th tier. I just really need some advice on the options that i do have. thank you <3

OP: I'll give you a serious answer in the off chance that you are being legit. TLS is a website with thousands of users, and, with surprising frequency, some individuals will come onto this website to get kicks by asking questions of the community in a way that they know will get people riled up. They successfully do this is by arguing vehemently against specific points of "common wisdom" that the TLS community has embraced, yet still sees repeated frequently from those in the non-TLS community of law school applicants. Generally speaking, TLS is a collectively well-educated (albeit, groupthink-esque) source of information on law school admissions. When enough of these points are bucked up against by a single person, TLS tends to believe that the poster is just messing with them, or "flaming" them. More often than not, they are right.

In your case, the statement I quoted above puts forth several of the TLS "no-no's" that the community considers fatal lines of rationale for law school applications.

1.) Retaking is not an option:
Put most simply, retaking is an option, merely one that you're refusing to consider. The reason this rubs many people the wrong way, however, is that a few simple points on your LSAT can net you thousands of dollars in scholarship money at the same schools, or put you into schools where the employment outcomes are significantly better. Somebody above mentioned that you will be stuck working for $40k per year with one of these degrees, but the reality is that this is an extremely generous outlook. The legal industry just can't sustain the number of graduates being put out, and the economy has made it so that a very substantial portion of the classes graduating from these schools will be unemployed. While it is your money to invest as you see fit, the relatively minimal effort it would take to retake the LSAT and get yourself into a better school makes it a no-brainer from a financial perspective. Even if the debt doesn't seem daunting now, have the maturity to recognize that it will by the time 3L year rolls around and you're searching for a job.

Others, like myself, dislike this argument for yet another reason: If you don't have the willpower and can't make the effort to retake the LSAT, you won't have what it takes for law school. I'm not going to go too deep into this (and I've said it before), but the LSAT is an absolute joke compared to the pressures of law school. If anxiety is an issue, know that it is only a fatal one if you refuse to confront the problem and assume that you'll be fine in law school - you won't. Talk to a doctor now and get it under control, retackle the LSAT with your 3rd retake, and go to a school your GPA deserves to be at (or one of these schools for free). I know you don't want to hear it, but you'll thank me later. If the anxiety is your honest reason for not wanting to take the LSAT again rather than simple laziness, there is absolutely hope for you - but only if you're willing to address the issue.

2.) Confident you'll graduate top 5%:
You won't, and I'm willing to bet on it. Do you want to know why? Let me answer that with another question: How many of the students at any given law school do you think go into the process convinced that they'll be in the bottom 10% of their class? How many of these students do you think have done well in school, but just didn't put the emphasis on the LSAT that they should have and equally will be testing above what they believe to be "their real ability"? How many students go to these schools knowing that they will have terrible employment outcomes, yet are convinced that they'll be the ones to transfer to what they perceive to be a "respectable" school? If you answer anywhere less than 100% (fine, maybe 95%, since some have jobs lined up with their parents' firm), you're kidding yourself. I have met some of the smartest people I've known in my entire life, with GPAs that shine and accomplishments that you wouldn't believe, but they're in the bottom 10% of my school. Law school grading is absolutely nothing like what you've experienced, except for this: somebody has to be at the bottom. If you want to make a $150-200k gamble on a 5% chance of transferring (to a school where you'll most likely need to be top 10% again to get a decent job), fine. It's your money.

On the other hand, you could also spend a few months preparing for a test where a 4 point increase in your score may cut the cost of attendance in half, or more. As ridiculous as it may seem, law school (and legal hiring) is so prestige based that it is dangerous for people to go to law school without putting themselves in the best position possible prior to school. The second you enroll in any particular school, your career's ceiling is determined in a lot of respects. There will always be those lucky few who break the rule (and things were different for law school graduates from 10+ years ago), but those are the increasingly few exceptions.

feminista wrote:THANK YOU TR FAN!

I dont usually have test anxiety. I was just in a bad place at the time. And I want to start law school this fall so i cannot retake it a 3rd time. Any thoughts about transferring to a "better school" after 1L if i do in fact rock that first year?

3.) I'll just transfer:
Yes, transferring to a better school is possible if you land a high enough class percentage. See the post directly above for why that is unlikely. Further, as I mentioned, your transfer from such a low school will likely be to another T2/3 school where the top of the class is still required for a decent job. The general rule on TLS is to never attend a school where you would not be happy graduating from at median. Though the rule changes somewhat when schools bring LRAP programs into the mix, it is generally a good rule to follow.

I'm not going to keep trudging through the various points and questions in your posts, but in the off chance that you're legitimately seeking advice, I hope this explanation helps. I know it's not pretty to hear - nobody likes to be told that they have hard work ahead of them. The best frame of mind that you can have is that the time you put into studying for the LSAT may be the single best and easiest investment you'll ever make for your future. But you're the only one who can make that choice. Best of luck, OP.

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bk1
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby bk1 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:49 pm

Barbie wrote:I don't think anyone who can't answer a simple and direct question is going to end up being a good lawyer :D

Guys, she asked a very direct and specific question: which to choose out of the schools she listed. She did not ask what YOU would do, she did not ask whether she should retake the LSAT, and she did not ask for your assessment of her. She asked for, at most, a name of the schools above and the reason why you chose it.

If you don't have an answer for her, then why post in the thread? Maybe one or two of you can harp "retake" if you feel it necessary, but those of you who flock to a thread just to reiterate what others are already saying could probably find better use of your opinions elsewhere.


No need to white knight here Barbie.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:50 pm

Barbie wrote:
feminista wrote:The 6 I have been accepted into request initial seat deposits by early April. So I dont think I have time to hear back from my "waits." My GPA (Philosophy Major) was a 3.9. However, my LSAT was only a 150 (major anxiety). So this is what I ended up with. Any suggestions on which one to choose? California vs. Northeast. I appreciate any feedback.



I don't think anyone who can't answer a simple and direct question is going to end up being a good lawyer :D

Simple answer: false choice.

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Barbie
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby Barbie » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:51 pm

bk1 wrote:
Barbie wrote:I don't think anyone who can't answer a simple and direct question is going to end up being a good lawyer :D

Guys, she asked a very direct and specific question: which to choose out of the schools she listed. She did not ask what YOU would do, she did not ask whether she should retake the LSAT, and she did not ask for your assessment of her. She asked for, at most, a name of the schools above and the reason why you chose it.

If you don't have an answer for her, then why post in the thread? Maybe one or two of you can harp "retake" if you feel it necessary, but those of you who flock to a thread just to reiterate what others are already saying could probably find better use of your opinions elsewhere.


No need to white knight here Barbie.


Not white-knighting :) I just seriously don't understand the point. She made it clear she is going to pick ONE of them, why not be a sport and actually help her decide? Just because she didn't get an LSAT score as high as some people on here, she doesn't have the right to get a serious assessment of the schools she has been accepted to as compared to one another?

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bk1
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby bk1 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:53 pm

Barbie wrote:Not white-knighting :) I just seriously don't understand the point. She made it clear she is going to pick ONE of them, why not be a sport and actually help her decide? Just because she didn't get an LSAT score as high as some people on here, she doesn't have the right to get a serious assessment of the schools she has been accepted to as compared to one another?


So if I needed an opinion on whether I should kill myself by hanging or by jumping off a building I could count on you to help me pick one?

It's not that she didn't get a high LSAT, it's that she hasn't used all of her available tries and it is highly likely that she didn't fully prepare for the first two.

Not that any of this matters since OP isn't coming back. I do commend earls for the effort though.

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Barbie
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby Barbie » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:56 pm

bk1 wrote:
Barbie wrote:Not white-knighting :) I just seriously don't understand the point. She made it clear she is going to pick ONE of them, why not be a sport and actually help her decide? Just because she didn't get an LSAT score as high as some people on here, she doesn't have the right to get a serious assessment of the schools she has been accepted to as compared to one another?


So if I needed an opinion on whether I should kill myself by hanging or by jumping off a building I could count on you to help me pick one?

It's not that she didn't get a high LSAT, it's that she hasn't even tried to do it over and it is highly likely that she didn't fully prepare for the first one.


Actually, I KNOW her, and she really did put 100% into the LSAT. We were both studying at the same time and she seriously put 10000x more effort into it than I did. She took a class, TWICE, and did god knows how many practice tests. I also know how hard it was for her to even put herself through such vigor a second time around. Some people seriously just don't do well on the LSAT, regardless of what they put into it. Which is why I think it would be really nice if someone could help her decide regardless of her options.

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Patriot1208
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby Patriot1208 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 6:57 pm

bk1 wrote:
Barbie wrote:Not white-knighting :) I just seriously don't understand the point. She made it clear she is going to pick ONE of them, why not be a sport and actually help her decide? Just because she didn't get an LSAT score as high as some people on here, she doesn't have the right to get a serious assessment of the schools she has been accepted to as compared to one another?


So if I needed an opinion on whether I should kill myself by hanging or by jumping off a building I could count on you to help me pick one?

It's not that she didn't get a high LSAT, it's that she hasn't used all of her available tries and it is highly likely that she didn't fully prepare for the first two.

Not that any of this matters since OP isn't coming back. I do commend earls for the effort though.
Also, the advice to go to the school that gives the least debt had been given multiple times

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bk1
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby bk1 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:01 pm

Barbie wrote:Actually, I KNOW her, and she really did put 100% into the LSAT. We were both studying at the same time and she seriously put 10000x more effort into it than I did. She took a class, TWICE, and did god knows how many practice tests. I also know how hard it was for her to even put herself through such vigor a second time around. Some people seriously just don't do well on the LSAT, regardless of what they put into it. Which is why I think it would be really nice if someone could help her decide regardless of her options.


Which is what I did on the first page:

bk1 wrote:3. If you are committed to going to a bad school then go to the cheapest possible one with the easiest scholarship requirements in the area you want to work.

concurrent fork
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby concurrent fork » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:16 pm

feminista wrote:I dont mind not attending 1, 2, or even a 3 tier school. Especially since I am fairly confident to graduate at the top 5% at a 3/4th tier.

Fred_McGriff wrote:Like fattened cows to the slaughter...

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joemoviebuff
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby joemoviebuff » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:18 pm

I also advised her to go to the school in the least saturated market.

What did you pick, Barbie?

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Barbie
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby Barbie » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:20 pm

joemoviebuff wrote:I also advised her to go to the school in the least saturated market.

What did you pick, Barbie?


UF. I really loved ASD and didn't feel like moving out of the region was a good idea in terms of sacrificing all my connections and my being comfortable here. Also, my husbands a HUGE gator fan ;). I still feel a little empty from not choosing Illinois though :(

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joemoviebuff
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby joemoviebuff » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:21 pm

Barbie wrote:
joemoviebuff wrote:I also advised her to go to the school in the least saturated market.

What did you pick, Barbie?


UF. I really loved ASD and didn't feel like moving out of the region was a good idea in terms of sacrificing all my connections and my being comfortable here. Also, my husbands a HUGE gator fan ;). I still feel a little empty from not choosing Illinois though :(


Uh...I meant what advice did you give your friend... :oops:

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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby rose711 » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:33 pm

Barbie wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Barbie wrote:Not white-knighting :) I just seriously don't understand the point. She made it clear she is going to pick ONE of them, why not be a sport and actually help her decide? Just because she didn't get an LSAT score as high as some people on here, she doesn't have the right to get a serious assessment of the schools she has been accepted to as compared to one another?


So if I needed an opinion on whether I should kill myself by hanging or by jumping off a building I could count on you to help me pick one?

It's not that she didn't get a high LSAT, it's that she hasn't even tried to do it over and it is highly likely that she didn't fully prepare for the first one.


Actually, I KNOW her, and she really did put 100% into the LSAT. We were both studying at the same time and she seriously put 10000x more effort into it than I did. She took a class, TWICE, and did god knows how many practice tests. I also know how hard it was for her to even put herself through such vigor a second time around. Some people seriously just don't do well on the LSAT, regardless of what they put into it. Which is why I think it would be really nice if someone could help her decide regardless of her options.


This would have been good information for her to post from the beginning. She made it sound as if her only problem with the LSAT score was her anxiety. If it was clear this score was the best she could do, then I don't know if everyone would have suggested retaking.

Still from her options...I don't know what to tell her other than to check out (1) what will be the cheapest as mentioned and (2) see which schools might have clinics she could find helpful for her stated career goals. I think she needs to start volunteering and getting involved in politics right away at the local level, state level or whatever level she can find, and, also, she needs to volunteer with organizations --not college clubs but real organizations --in whatever field she wants to go into, because connections (with the least amount of possible debt) are going to be her best chance at getting where she wants to go.

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Barbie
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby Barbie » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:49 pm

joemoviebuff wrote:
Barbie wrote:Uh...I meant what advice did you give your friend... :oops:


Ooo. I have no experience with any of those schools so I just said I would visit and see how much you <3 each place.

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Blindmelon
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby Blindmelon » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:03 pm

Getting a legal job from any of those schools is like trying to work at a 5 star restaurant after graduating from Hamburger University (see http://www.aboutmcdonalds.com/mcd/caree ... rsity.html).

Law school is stressful enough, don't pile on the massive clusterfuck that will be your job-search upon graduating.

EDIT: This is a mean/jerky post. But seriously, be confident in yourself. You deserve more than what these schools can offer (maybe).

Chouchous
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby Chouchous » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:46 pm

The reality is that the schools you've been accepted at do not have very good job prospects to put it mildly. So you have to seriously consider taking on a lot of debt.

The only school that could possibly get you to where you want to be career-wise is American, so my only advise would be to ride the waitlist to the very end and see what happens. I know that many people on here would argue that American isn't worth sticker and I personally would never attend American at sticker but given your situation it is the only choice that's somewhat justifiable.

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Hank Chill
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby Hank Chill » Fri Mar 04, 2011 9:53 pm

feminista wrote:I already took it twice. Retaking is not an option either. I dont mind not attending 1, 2, or even a 3 tier school. Especially since I am fairly confident to graduate at the top 5% at a 3/4th tier. I just really need some advice on the options that i do have. thank you <3


It's a flame guise.

Danteshek
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby Danteshek » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:18 pm

Blindmelon wrote:Getting a legal job from any of those schools is like trying to work at a 5 star restaurant after graduating from Hamburger University.


McDonald's is not a restaurant. It is a processed food distribution company.

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TR Fan
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby TR Fan » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:35 pm

FlightoftheEarls,

Kudos for your thoughtful and comprehensive post earlier. Regardless of whether the original poster is legitimate, I'm sure there are readers out there who face similar dilemmas and will benefit from your sound advice.

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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby mettasutta » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:44 pm

OP: Even though I join the echo chamber of "retake!" ITT, if you're not willing to do so, have you considered CUNY? Even though it is a tier 4 school, its tuition is dirt-cheap, and it has a excellent rep for public service law, which you expressed interest in practicing. I'd imagine you'd get a scholarship with your amazing GPA. You still have time--the app deadline is March 16.
Last edited by mettasutta on Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby Alex-Trof » Fri Mar 04, 2011 10:59 pm

FlightoftheEarls wrote:
feminista wrote:I already took it twice. Retaking is not an option either. I dont mind not attending 1, 2, or even a 3 tier school. Especially since I am fairly confident to graduate at the top 5% at a 3/4th tier. I just really need some advice on the options that i do have. thank you <3

OP: I'll give you a serious answer in the off chance that you are being legit. TLS is a website with thousands of users, and, with surprising frequency, some individuals will come onto this website to get kicks by asking questions of the community in a way that they know will get people riled up. They successfully do this is by arguing vehemently against specific points of "common wisdom" that the TLS community has embraced, yet still sees repeated frequently from those in the non-TLS community of law school applicants. Generally speaking, TLS is a collectively well-educated (albeit, groupthink-esque) source of information on law school admissions. When enough of these points are bucked up against by a single person, TLS tends to believe that the poster is just messing with them, or "flaming" them. More often than not, they are right.

In your case, the statement I quoted above puts forth several of the TLS "no-no's" that the community considers fatal lines of rationale for law school applications.

1.) Retaking is not an option:
Put most simply, retaking is an option, merely one that you're refusing to consider. The reason this rubs many people the wrong way, however, is that a few simple points on your LSAT can net you thousands of dollars in scholarship money at the same schools, or put you into schools where the employment outcomes are significantly better. Somebody above mentioned that you will be stuck working for $40k per year with one of these degrees, but the reality is that this is an extremely generous outlook. The legal industry just can't sustain the number of graduates being put out, and the economy has made it so that a very substantial portion of the classes graduating from these schools will be unemployed. While it is your money to invest as you see fit, the relatively minimal effort it would take to retake the LSAT and get yourself into a better school makes it a no-brainer from a financial perspective. Even if the debt doesn't seem daunting now, have the maturity to recognize that it will by the time 3L year rolls around and you're searching for a job.

Others, like myself, dislike this argument for yet another reason: If you don't have the willpower and can't make the effort to retake the LSAT, you won't have what it takes for law school. I'm not going to go too deep into this (and I've said it before), but the LSAT is an absolute joke compared to the pressures of law school. If anxiety is an issue, know that it is only a fatal one if you refuse to confront the problem and assume that you'll be fine in law school - you won't. Talk to a doctor now and get it under control, retackle the LSAT with your 3rd retake, and go to a school your GPA deserves to be at (or one of these schools for free). I know you don't want to hear it, but you'll thank me later. If the anxiety is your honest reason for not wanting to take the LSAT again rather than simple laziness, there is absolutely hope for you - but only if you're willing to address the issue.

2.) Confident you'll graduate top 5%:
You won't, and I'm willing to bet on it. Do you want to know why? Let me answer that with another question: How many of the students at any given law school do you think go into the process convinced that they'll be in the bottom 10% of their class? How many of these students do you think have done well in school, but just didn't put the emphasis on the LSAT that they should have and equally will be testing above what they believe to be "their real ability"? How many students go to these schools knowing that they will have terrible employment outcomes, yet are convinced that they'll be the ones to transfer to what they perceive to be a "respectable" school? If you answer anywhere less than 100% (fine, maybe 95%, since some have jobs lined up with their parents' firm), you're kidding yourself. I have met some of the smartest people I've known in my entire life, with GPAs that shine and accomplishments that you wouldn't believe, but they're in the bottom 10% of my school. Law school grading is absolutely nothing like what you've experienced, except for this: somebody has to be at the bottom. If you want to make a $150-200k gamble on a 5% chance of transferring (to a school where you'll most likely need to be top 10% again to get a decent job), fine. It's your money.

On the other hand, you could also spend a few months preparing for a test where a 4 point increase in your score may cut the cost of attendance in half, or more. As ridiculous as it may seem, law school (and legal hiring) is so prestige based that it is dangerous for people to go to law school without putting themselves in the best position possible prior to school. The second you enroll in any particular school, your career's ceiling is determined in a lot of respects. There will always be those lucky few who break the rule (and things were different for law school graduates from 10+ years ago), but those are the increasingly few exceptions.

feminista wrote:THANK YOU TR FAN!

I dont usually have test anxiety. I was just in a bad place at the time. And I want to start law school this fall so i cannot retake it a 3rd time. Any thoughts about transferring to a "better school" after 1L if i do in fact rock that first year?

3.) I'll just transfer:
Yes, transferring to a better school is possible if you land a high enough class percentage. See the post directly above for why that is unlikely. Further, as I mentioned, your transfer from such a low school will likely be to another T2/3 school where the top of the class is still required for a decent job. The general rule on TLS is to never attend a school where you would not be happy graduating from at median. Though the rule changes somewhat when schools bring LRAP programs into the mix, it is generally a good rule to follow.

I'm not going to keep trudging through the various points and questions in your posts, but in the off chance that you're legitimately seeking advice, I hope this explanation helps. I know it's not pretty to hear - nobody likes to be told that they have hard work ahead of them. The best frame of mind that you can have is that the time you put into studying for the LSAT may be the single best and easiest investment you'll ever make for your future. But you're the only one who can make that choice. Best of luck, OP.


Great comment! Can we tag it on the top in a separate thread?

mettasutta
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Re: serious help please :) california vs. the northeast

Postby mettasutta » Fri Mar 04, 2011 11:02 pm

Barbie wrote:
bk1 wrote:
Barbie wrote:Not white-knighting :) I just seriously don't understand the point. She made it clear she is going to pick ONE of them, why not be a sport and actually help her decide? Just because she didn't get an LSAT score as high as some people on here, she doesn't have the right to get a serious assessment of the schools she has been accepted to as compared to one another?


So if I needed an opinion on whether I should kill myself by hanging or by jumping off a building I could count on you to help me pick one?

It's not that she didn't get a high LSAT, it's that she hasn't even tried to do it over and it is highly likely that she didn't fully prepare for the first one.


Actually, I KNOW her, and she really did put 100% into the LSAT. We were both studying at the same time and she seriously put 10000x more effort into it than I did. She took a class, TWICE, and did god knows how many practice tests. I also know how hard it was for her to even put herself through such vigor a second time around. Some people seriously just don't do well on the LSAT, regardless of what they put into it. Which is why I think it would be really nice if someone could help her decide regardless of her options.


Barbie, if you support OP in going into $150k-$200k of debt for dismal job prospects, you are not being a good friend.




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