CLS vs HLS

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angua
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CLS vs HLS

Postby angua » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:26 pm

1/2 tuition scholarship vs no merit aid, Cambridge vs NYC
Would it be idiotic to pass on HLS? Anybody have anecdotes on quality of life? I'm guessing Cambridge is a little more of a friendly/manageable place than NYC especially with respect to rent and finding places to live.

dddhhh
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby dddhhh » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:27 pm

What type of work are you interested in doing after LS?

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angua
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby angua » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:54 pm

I am really unsure of what I want to do ultimately, so at this point wherever will give me the best options and flexibility is going to be a big deal. I'm not in love with public interest but I'm not die-hard BigLaw either. I effing love NYC and want to end up there but I imagine going to HLS would not preclude that by any means.

I'm also trying to factor in quality of life. Living in NYC is hard and I'm guessing (correct me though if I am wrong) that housing is not quite as stingy and difficult in the Cambridge area as it is in Manhattan. Cost of living might be slightly lower there too.

Another really big deal is the grading systems. I like the HLS one better. It would be nerve-wracking to do the legal writing course at CLS for a letter grade.

I still haven't heard back from YLS, so if I manage to get in there, I have to add that into this decision. Honestly, I do not understand (and would love clarification) why HLS gets so much hate when compared to YLS. I'm actually attracted to the larger size of HLS, and I really do not think that if you're a Harvard grad and you're not last in the class you are going to have a significantly harder time getting good work. Am I missing some big obvious thing?

eaa1537
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby eaa1537 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:55 pm

taagggg.... this thread is relevant to my interests

flcath
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby flcath » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:01 pm

angua wrote:I am really unsure of what I want to do ultimately, so at this point wherever will give me the best options and flexibility is going to be a big deal. I'm not in love with public interest but I'm not die-hard BigLaw either. I effing love NYC and want to end up there but I imagine going to HLS would not preclude that by any means.

I'm also trying to factor in quality of life. Living in NYC is hard and I'm guessing (correct me though if I am wrong) that housing is not quite as stingy and difficult in the Cambridge area as it is in Manhattan. Cost of living might be slightly lower there too.

Another really big deal is the grading systems. I like the HLS one better. It would be nerve-wracking to do the legal writing course at CLS for a letter grade.

I still haven't heard back from YLS, so if I manage to get in there, I have to add that into this decision. Honestly, I do not understand (and would love clarification) why HLS gets so much hate when compared to YLS. I'm actually attracted to the larger size of HLS, and I really do not think that if you're a Harvard grad and you're not last in the class you are going to have a significantly harder time getting good work. Am I missing some big obvious thing?

I have nothing to offer to this besides the fact that legal academic hiring does recognize the Y>H>C distinction (or at least there's sufficient self-selection to manifest itself in the stats).

http://leiterrankings.com/new/2011_LawTeachers.shtml

I mean, that's pretty fucking significant.

Good luck though.

lakerfanimal
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby lakerfanimal » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:08 pm

angua wrote:I am really unsure of what I want to do ultimately, so at this point wherever will give me the best options and flexibility is going to be a big deal. I'm not in love with public interest but I'm not die-hard BigLaw either. I effing love NYC and want to end up there but I imagine going to HLS would not preclude that by any means.

I'm also trying to factor in quality of life. Living in NYC is hard and I'm guessing (correct me though if I am wrong) that housing is not quite as stingy and difficult in the Cambridge area as it is in Manhattan. Cost of living might be slightly lower there too.

Another really big deal is the grading systems. I like the HLS one better. It would be nerve-wracking to do the legal writing course at CLS for a letter grade.

I still haven't heard back from YLS, so if I manage to get in there, I have to add that into this decision. Honestly, I do not understand (and would love clarification) why HLS gets so much hate when compared to YLS. I'm actually attracted to the larger size of HLS, and I really do not think that if you're a Harvard grad and you're not last in the class you are going to have a significantly harder time getting good work. Am I missing some big obvious thing?


This is just my impression, but I may be wrong. It seems like Harvard isn't overwhelmingly better for Public Interest or BigLaw (but is better), but clerkship wise and academia wise it's significantly better. QOL seems pretty subjective so who's to say what's better.

I think part of why YLS might make you more marketable is that you become a rarer commodity (there's a much smaller amount of Yale grads). There may be other reasons to, but I can't give any other concrete reasons I know of.

Good luck deciding!

ImpatientlyWaiting
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby ImpatientlyWaiting » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:13 pm

angua wrote:I am really unsure of what I want to do ultimately, so at this point wherever will give me the best options and flexibility is going to be a big deal. I'm not in love with public interest but I'm not die-hard BigLaw either. I effing love NYC and want to end up there but I imagine going to HLS would not preclude that by any means.

I'm also trying to factor in quality of life. Living in NYC is hard and I'm guessing (correct me though if I am wrong) that housing is not quite as stingy and difficult in the Cambridge area as it is in Manhattan. Cost of living might be slightly lower there too.

Another really big deal is the grading systems. I like the HLS one better. It would be nerve-wracking to do the legal writing course at CLS for a letter grade.

I still haven't heard back from YLS, so if I manage to get in there, I have to add that into this decision. Honestly, I do not understand (and would love clarification) why HLS gets so much hate when compared to YLS. I'm actually attracted to the larger size of HLS, and I really do not think that if you're a Harvard grad and you're not last in the class you are going to have a significantly harder time getting good work. Am I missing some big obvious thing?


Agreed, especially since Harvard students report that they have no problem getting attention from professors. Yale definitely has a very real advantage when it comes to clerkships and academia, but I think other differences are massively overstated.

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angua
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby angua » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:14 pm

lakerfanimal wrote:
angua wrote:I am really unsure of what I want to do ultimately, so at this point wherever will give me the best options and flexibility is going to be a big deal. I'm not in love with public interest but I'm not die-hard BigLaw either. I effing love NYC and want to end up there but I imagine going to HLS would not preclude that by any means.

I'm also trying to factor in quality of life. Living in NYC is hard and I'm guessing (correct me though if I am wrong) that housing is not quite as stingy and difficult in the Cambridge area as it is in Manhattan. Cost of living might be slightly lower there too.

Another really big deal is the grading systems. I like the HLS one better. It would be nerve-wracking to do the legal writing course at CLS for a letter grade.

I still haven't heard back from YLS, so if I manage to get in there, I have to add that into this decision. Honestly, I do not understand (and would love clarification) why HLS gets so much hate when compared to YLS. I'm actually attracted to the larger size of HLS, and I really do not think that if you're a Harvard grad and you're not last in the class you are going to have a significantly harder time getting good work. Am I missing some big obvious thing?


This is just my impression, but I may be wrong. It seems like Harvard isn't overwhelmingly better for Public Interest or BigLaw (but is better), but clerkship wise and academia wise it's significantly better. QOL seems pretty subjective so who's to say what's better.

I think part of why YLS might make you more marketable is that you become a rarer commodity (there's a much smaller amount of Yale grads). There may be other reasons to, but I can't give any other concrete reasons I know of.

Good luck deciding!


Thanks :)

Re: legal academia, I have nearly 0 interest in doing that, so it wouldn't help with the Y/H decision.

HLS is better for clerkships is what you were saying?

ma456
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby ma456 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:14 pm

angua wrote:Another really big deal is the grading systems. I like the HLS one better. It would be nerve-wracking to do the legal writing course at CLS for a letter grade.


I thought the legal writing course at CLS was ungraded? Or is at least HP/P/LP/F and doesn't count towards GPA?

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BruceWayne
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:15 pm

lakerfanimal wrote:
angua wrote:I am really unsure of what I want to do ultimately, so at this point wherever will give me the best options and flexibility is going to be a big deal. I'm not in love with public interest but I'm not die-hard BigLaw either. I effing love NYC and want to end up there but I imagine going to HLS would not preclude that by any means.

I'm also trying to factor in quality of life. Living in NYC is hard and I'm guessing (correct me though if I am wrong) that housing is not quite as stingy and difficult in the Cambridge area as it is in Manhattan. Cost of living might be slightly lower there too.

Another really big deal is the grading systems. I like the HLS one better. It would be nerve-wracking to do the legal writing course at CLS for a letter grade.

I still haven't heard back from YLS, so if I manage to get in there, I have to add that into this decision. Honestly, I do not understand (and would love clarification) why HLS gets so much hate when compared to YLS. I'm actually attracted to the larger size of HLS, and I really do not think that if you're a Harvard grad and you're not last in the class you are going to have a significantly harder time getting good work. Am I missing some big obvious thing?


This is just my impression, but I may be wrong. It seems like Harvard isn't overwhelmingly better for Public Interest or BigLaw (but is better), but clerkship wise and academia wise it's significantly better. QOL seems pretty subjective so who's to say what's better.

I think part of why YLS might make you more marketable is that you become a rarer commodity (there's a much smaller amount of Yale grads). There may be other reasons to, but I can't give any other concrete reasons I know of.

It is. Harvard is significantly better for getting a firm job in any location outside of NYC than CLS is (especially DC). It's also significantly better for PI work (particularly DOJ). But since the OP is interested in NYC he should probably take the half ride to CLS.

Good luck deciding!


It is wrong. HLS is defintely better for biglaw at any firm outside of NYC (especially in DC) and it's definitely better for PI (especially DOJ) but since OP said he wants to work/live in NYC, it makes sense for him to take the half ride to CLS.
Last edited by BruceWayne on Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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angua
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby angua » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:24 pm

At this point, despite Columbia being very attractive, I'm still leaning Harvard-ward unless I can somehow get insane additional amounts of scholarship money from CLS. If at some point I get weary of the hugeness of NYC, a Harvard degree would open more doors for me in more places, wouldn't it? Or am I blowing up minor differences between the two schools?

Also -- what's the deal with grading? Is HLS on a strict curve anymore? (For that matter is CLS? I thought it was but I'm getting my details all mixed up.)

Also also important: How hard is it to get on Law Review at these schools, respectively? That is a critical factor.



Man, this is a rough decision. I totally want to punch myself in the face though for whining about a problem that I am ridiculously lucky to have. I think I need to buy bottles of Dom Perignon for all my recommendation writers.

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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby Lawquacious » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:27 pm



:shock: So pretty much go to Yale if you want to be a (substantive) prof.

Edit: sorry OP- don't mean to be unhelpful, just saw these stats for the first time and was surprised how far out front Yale is. But Harvard looks to be way ahead of Columbia in this regard as far as comparison goes between the two (not sure I can qualitatively evaluate the actual or exact significance of these stats at this point in any case..).

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angua
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby angua » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:41 pm

Lawquacious wrote:


:shock: So pretty much go to Yale if you want to be a (substantive) prof.

Edit: sorry OP- don't mean to be unhelpful, just saw these stats for the first time and was surprised how far out front Yale is. But Harvard looks to be way ahead of Columbia in this regard as far as comparison goes between the two (not sure I can qualitatively evaluate the actual or exact significance of these stats at this point in any case..).


No worries. That is truly redonk though. Good thing I'm not dying to be a law prof?

lakerfanimal
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby lakerfanimal » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:42 pm

BruceWayne wrote:
lakerfanimal wrote:
angua wrote:I am really unsure of what I want to do ultimately, so at this point wherever will give me the best options and flexibility is going to be a big deal. I'm not in love with public interest but I'm not die-hard BigLaw either. I effing love NYC and want to end up there but I imagine going to HLS would not preclude that by any means.

I'm also trying to factor in quality of life. Living in NYC is hard and I'm guessing (correct me though if I am wrong) that housing is not quite as stingy and difficult in the Cambridge area as it is in Manhattan. Cost of living might be slightly lower there too.

Another really big deal is the grading systems. I like the HLS one better. It would be nerve-wracking to do the legal writing course at CLS for a letter grade.

I still haven't heard back from YLS, so if I manage to get in there, I have to add that into this decision. Honestly, I do not understand (and would love clarification) why HLS gets so much hate when compared to YLS. I'm actually attracted to the larger size of HLS, and I really do not think that if you're a Harvard grad and you're not last in the class you are going to have a significantly harder time getting good work. Am I missing some big obvious thing?


This is just my impression, but I may be wrong. It seems like Harvard isn't overwhelmingly better for Public Interest or BigLaw (but is better), but clerkship wise and academia wise it's significantly better. QOL seems pretty subjective so who's to say what's better.

I think part of why YLS might make you more marketable is that you become a rarer commodity (there's a much smaller amount of Yale grads). There may be other reasons to, but I can't give any other concrete reasons I know of.

It is. Harvard is significantly better for getting a firm job in any location outside of NYC than CLS is (especially DC). It's also significantly better for PI work (particularly DOJ). But since the OP is interested in NYC he should probably take the half ride to CLS.

Good luck deciding!


It is wrong. HLS is defintely better for biglaw at any firm outside of NYC (especially in DC) and it's definitely better for PI (especially DOJ) but since OP said he wants to work/live in NYC, it makes sense for him to take the half ride to CLS.


No I agree it is better, but I wasn't sure how much better it was (and I wasn't thinking about government jobs, so my bad on that). From what you know, is it fair to say the difference between Yale and Harvard is larger than Harvard and Columbia (with respect to biglaw and public interest), or would that be inaccurate? Thanks!

And Angua, from what I know, yeah Harvard is definitely better for clerkships. I think that unless you hate Boston for some reason, you should go to Harvard.

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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby JG Hall » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:20 pm

ma456 wrote:
angua wrote:Another really big deal is the grading systems. I like the HLS one better. It would be nerve-wracking to do the legal writing course at CLS for a letter grade.


I thought the legal writing course at CLS was ungraded? Or is at least HP/P/LP/F and doesn't count towards GPA?

HP/P/LP/F, but I've never heard of the last two occurring.

Also, how is living in New York hard?

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20160810
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby 20160810 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 10:04 pm

JG Hall wrote:
ma456 wrote:
angua wrote:Another really big deal is the grading systems. I like the HLS one better. It would be nerve-wracking to do the legal writing course at CLS for a letter grade.


I thought the legal writing course at CLS was ungraded? Or is at least HP/P/LP/F and doesn't count towards GPA?

HP/P/LP/F, but I've never heard of the last two occurring.

Also, how is living in New York hard?

Living in NYC is probably cooler than living in any other US city, but it's definitely also more expensive and more of a hassle.

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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:10 pm

SBL wrote:Living in NYC is probably cooler than living in any other US city, but it's definitely insanely expensive and more of a hassle.


lakerfanimal wrote:No I agree it is better, but I wasn't sure how much better it was (and I wasn't thinking about government jobs, so my bad on that). From what you know, is it fair to say the difference between Yale and Harvard is larger than Harvard and Columbia (with respect to biglaw and public interest), or would that be inaccurate? Thanks!

And Angua, from what I know, yeah Harvard is definitely better for clerkships. I think that unless you hate Boston for some reason, you should go to Harvard.


From everything I've seen the YLS HLS difference probably has more to do with YLS saving a lot of their student body from job troubles by not using a forced curve. Outside of clerkships and academia you don't see a difference in HLS and YLS. Whereas there is a big difference between HLS and CLS for DC firm jobs, PI work (especially DOJ), and firm jobs outside of NYC. For example HLS murders CLS at the really selective DC firms: Williams and Connolly, Covington, WilmerHale etc.

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angua
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby angua » Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:15 am

BruceWayne wrote:
lakerfanimal wrote:
And Angua, from what I know, yeah Harvard is definitely better for clerkships. I think that unless you hate Boston for some reason, you should go to Harvard.


From everything I've seen the YLS HLS difference probably has more to do with YLS saving a lot of their student body from job troubles by not using a forced curve. Outside of clerkships and academia you don't see a difference in HLS and YLS. Whereas there is a big difference between HLS and CLS for DC firm jobs, PI work (especially DOJ), and firm jobs outside of NYC. For example HLS murders CLS at the really selective DC firms: Williams and Connolly, Covington, WilmerHale etc.



Thank y'all, this is super helpful :)

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Attorney
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Re: CLS vs HLS

Postby Attorney » Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:44 pm

BruceWayne wrote:firm jobs outside of NYC. For example HLS murders CLS at the really selective DC firms: Williams and Connolly, Covington, WilmerHale etc.

Good point. Of course in NYC, Columbia bows to no one. Since many of the Vault 25 firms are in NYC, this makes their overall "most selective firms" placement look kind of amazing. If angua wants NYC, Columbia and all that $$$ is the choice. For anywhere else, it's HLS.

Vault 25 placement: http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html
"Leiter 15" placement: http://www.leiterrankings.com/jobs/2008job_biglaw.shtml

TL;DR?
V25 ('06): #1 Columbia 63.2%, #2 Harvard 57.3%.
"L15" ('08): #1 Columbia 1.53, #3 Harvard 1.13.

Note that both numbers include those ultra-selective DC firms like Covington and Williams and Connolly. Columbia still comes out ahead overall because of its dominance in NYC. Of course, a lot of this may be H's self-selection toward clerkships, toward PI, and away from New York City.

So angua, could you see yourself taking a job in DC or Boston (or San Fran, or Denver, or Chicago, or Miami, or .....)? Could you see yourself in public interest work? Or are you a New York (Big Law) kinda person through and through? For the first two it is Harvard all the way, for the latter it's definitely Columbia and ca$h! :D




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