2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

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FiveSermon
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:52 pm

Kswizzie wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
ImpatientlyWaiting wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Utterly useless? Right...


Yes. If it's going to suggest that Yale gives you the 15th-best shot at BigLaw, and that Cornell gives you a better shot than 12 of the other T14, then it is completely and utterly useless without proper context. The rankings just don't have practical value if you don't know about the self-selection biases of each school.


People know the context. Everyone knows students from schools like Yale and Stanford can do whatever they want. Who the hell even looks at NLJ250 if they get admitted to Yale? If you can't get biglaw from Yale you were probably bottom 1% with bad interview skills.


Even factoring in such biases Cornell absolutely crushed like a mother F... I wouldn't say that its better than 12 of the T14 but we can probably say (given historical clerkship, gov't, PI placement) that 2/3rds of that graduating class walked away with the kind of jobs available to only the very top students at schools outside the T30 or so...

That's pretty freakin good if you can be a well-below average student at a school and still land a nice job


I think the NLJ placement charts just show that within the t14 most schools differ year by year by 5-10%. The exceptions would of course be HYS which do better than others every year and maybe CCN. But the difference between MVP and G C NU seem to be wildly inconsistent. GTOWN just sucks.

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jcunni5
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby jcunni5 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:56 pm

Cornell kind of gives me hope, I feel like if they can place that well most other T14's can as well with proper bidding, mailing, etc.

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Kswizzie
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby Kswizzie » Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:57 pm

jcunni5 wrote:Cornell kind of gives me hope, I feel like if they can place that well most other T14's can as well with proper bidding, mailing, etc.


Super subtle anti-Cornell trolling?

FiveSermon
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:58 pm

Kswizzie wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:Cornell kind of gives me hope, I feel like if they can place that well most other T14's can as well with proper bidding, mailing, etc.


Super subtle anti-Cornell trolling?


That's what I thought. If Cornell can do it then it's obvious the other (and superior t14's) can do it as well. :o

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BruceWayne
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby BruceWayne » Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:03 pm

jcunni5 wrote:Cornell kind of gives me hope, I feel like if they can place that well most other T14's can as well with proper bidding, mailing, etc.


That's actually a pretty good way to look at it. When you look at the offer rate per region information that someone posted earlier it seems pretty clear that where you are interested in working impacts your chances of getting a job pretty strongly. That kind of sucks though; people could end up being forced to choose between somewhere they hate living--but having employment--and targeting where they really want to live, but risking a greater chance of being jobless. And the thing is that NYC is a really tough place to live if it doesn't jive with you. :( Not to mention the COL essentially neutralizes biglaw pay. Basically working 12 hour days in NYC biglaw (and being on call 24/7) at what amounts to 56K in many other parts of the country.

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jcunni5
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby jcunni5 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:06 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
Kswizzie wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:Cornell kind of gives me hope, I feel like if they can place that well most other T14's can as well with proper bidding, mailing, etc.


Super subtle anti-Cornell trolling?


That's what I thought. If Cornell can do it then it's obvious the other (and superior t14's) can do it as well. :o


yea i guess it kinda comes off condescending, I don't mean that Cornell is worse than other T14's just that it's not really better either (besides it's small class which helps)

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jenesaislaw
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby jenesaislaw » Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:42 pm

I was shocked and impressed with Cornell's placement.

Also, it is true that this does not tell the whole story, but this information is certainly not useless. It does require some context, but so does all other available information.

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beachbum
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby beachbum » Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:46 pm

jcunni5 wrote:Cornell kind of gives me hope, I feel like if they can place that well most other T14's can as well with proper bidding, mailing, etc.


+1

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KMaine
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby KMaine » Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:58 pm

jenesaislaw wrote:I was shocked and impressed with Cornell's placement.

Also, it is true that this does not tell the whole story, but this information is certainly not useless. It does require some context, but so does all other available information.


I am not really sure why this surprises anybody. As someone mentioned elsewhere, Cornell usually outplaces its USNWR ranking in terms of placement (one of the reasons I chose to come to the school). Last year was a real outlier for Cornell. NYC focus, small class size, and small number of clerks compared to SOME (not all) higher ranked school makes the number high as it traditionally has been.

FiveSermon
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:00 pm

beachbum wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:Cornell kind of gives me hope, I feel like if they can place that well most other T14's can as well with proper bidding, mailing, etc.


+1


I'm sure Duke placed over 20% lower because they didn't bid or mail properly. That's some hard stuff to learn to do you know. How to mail properly. Cornell is #1 in that category for sure.

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Kswizzie
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby Kswizzie » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:02 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
beachbum wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:Cornell kind of gives me hope, I feel like if they can place that well most other T14's can as well with proper bidding, mailing, etc.


+1


I'm sure Duke placed over 20% lower because they didn't bid or mail properly. That's some hard stuff to learn to do you know. How to mail properly. Cornell is #1 in that category for sure.


I wonder what would have to happen for Cornell to get some love from the TLS crowd... probably move down to NYC... change its name to "Columbia 2: Columbia Strikes Back"

FiveSermon
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:04 pm

Kswizzie wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
beachbum wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:Cornell kind of gives me hope, I feel like if they can place that well most other T14's can as well with proper bidding, mailing, etc.


+1


I'm sure Duke placed over 20% lower because they didn't bid or mail properly. That's some hard stuff to learn to do you know. How to mail properly. Cornell is #1 in that category for sure.


I wonder what would have to happen for Cornell to get some love from the TLS crowd... probably move down to NYC... change its name to "Columbia 2: Columbia Strikes Back"


Cornell could bloody place #1 into biglaw and TLS would still attribute it to "proper mailing" :roll: :roll:

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beachbum
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby beachbum » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:33 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
beachbum wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:Cornell kind of gives me hope, I feel like if they can place that well most other T14's can as well with proper bidding, mailing, etc.


+1


I'm sure Duke placed over 20% lower because they didn't bid or mail properly. That's some hard stuff to learn to do you know. How to mail properly. Cornell is #1 in that category for sure.


No, but the small class sizes (of both schools) probably counts for a lot. A few more (or less) grads who go into PI/gov, clerkships, or midlaw could affect BigLaw placement percentage quite a bit for either school. Bidding strategy might also have something to do with it.

But in the end, Cornell is a great school. And Duke is a great school. And if this (+ next year's stats) represents rock bottom, then I still feel I'm making the right choice in attending Duke.

But in the meantime, I'll try to hone up on my mailing skillz.

keg411
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby keg411 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:34 pm

KMaine wrote:
jenesaislaw wrote:I was shocked and impressed with Cornell's placement.

Also, it is true that this does not tell the whole story, but this information is certainly not useless. It does require some context, but so does all other available information.


I am not really sure why this surprises anybody. As someone mentioned elsewhere, Cornell usually outplaces its USNWR ranking in terms of placement (one of the reasons I chose to come to the school). Last year was a real outlier for Cornell. NYC focus, small class size, and small number of clerks compared to SOME (not all) higher ranked school makes the number high as it traditionally has been.


This. But glad to see Cornell finally get the <3 it deserves :D.

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jcunni5
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby jcunni5 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:20 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
beachbum wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:Cornell kind of gives me hope, I feel like if they can place that well most other T14's can as well with proper bidding, mailing, etc.


+1


I'm sure Duke placed over 20% lower because they didn't bid or mail properly. That's some hard stuff to learn to do you know. How to mail properly. Cornell is #1 in that category for sure.


not sure if you realize dude but Cornell got Raped last year, even Vandy kicked its ass.... don't you think Career services put up the red alert to bid realistically and vigorously pursue options outside of OCI ? and that almost certainly contributed to its huge jump in numbers

also if you think Duke actually has 20% less placement power than Cornell LOL

FiveSermon
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:26 pm

jcunni5 wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
beachbum wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:Cornell kind of gives me hope, I feel like if they can place that well most other T14's can as well with proper bidding, mailing, etc.


+1


I'm sure Duke placed over 20% lower because they didn't bid or mail properly. That's some hard stuff to learn to do you know. How to mail properly. Cornell is #1 in that category for sure.


not sure if you realize dude but Cornell got Raped last year, even Vandy kicked its ass.... don't you think Career services put up the red alert to bid realistically and vigorously pursue options outside of OCI ? and that almost certainly contributed to its huge jump in numbers

also if you think Duke actually has 20% less placement power than Cornell LOL


I'm not sure if you realize but if 6% outplacement of Vandy of Cornell is kicking ass then 20% is like nuclear holocaust.

Also getting jobs at NLJ250 firms is bidding realistically? Settling for biglaw is bidding realistically? That's a good one.

And I never said Cornell has 20% more placement power hurr durr rc fail. I said they placed 20% less which is not likely to be explained by simply mailing properly or bidding properly. It's more like NYC market and some greater factors we can't explain.

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jcunni5
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby jcunni5 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:38 pm

I
'm not sure if you realize but if 6% outplacement of Vandy of Cornell is kicking ass then 20% is like nuclear holocaust.

Also getting jobs at NLJ250 firms is bidding realistically? Settling for biglaw is bidding realistically? That's a good one.

And I never said Cornell has 20% more placement power hurr durr rc fail. I said they placed 20% less which is not likely to be explained by simply mailing properly or bidding properly. It's more like NYC market and some greater factors we can't explain.
[/quote]

I'm not a duke troll.. don't really care but the point was Cornell was Duke last year so acting like it's no surprise that it is placing this well is a bit disingenuous

Yes NLJ 250 /=/ V30, many of the lower NLJ firms don't make six figures and wouldn't be considered prestigious for a T14 grad.... also bidding = OCI = basically almost all big law employers so lower NLJ 250 = realistic for the bidding process

with the small classes of duke and cornell 20 people could swing it 10% so yeah bidding/mailing/networking could make up for a lot of the difference

hth

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violinst
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby violinst » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:44 pm

jcunni5 wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
beachbum wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:Cornell kind of gives me hope, I feel like if they can place that well most other T14's can as well with proper bidding, mailing, etc.


+1


I'm sure Duke placed over 20% lower because they didn't bid or mail properly. That's some hard stuff to learn to do you know. How to mail properly. Cornell is #1 in that category for sure.


not sure if you realize dude but Cornell got Raped last year, even Vandy kicked its ass.... don't you think Career services put up the red alert to bid realistically and vigorously pursue options outside of OCI ? and that almost certainly contributed to its huge jump in numbers

also if you think Duke actually has 20% less placement power than Cornell LOL


It still did 42%. Getting a 58% offer rate ITE is more impressive and persuasive.

FiveSermon
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:47 pm

jcunni5 wrote:I
'm not sure if you realize but if 6% outplacement of Vandy of Cornell is kicking ass then 20% is like nuclear holocaust.

Also getting jobs at NLJ250 firms is bidding realistically? Settling for biglaw is bidding realistically? That's a good one.

And I never said Cornell has 20% more placement power hurr durr rc fail. I said they placed 20% less which is not likely to be explained by simply mailing properly or bidding properly. It's more like NYC market and some greater factors we can't explain.


I'm not a duke troll.. don't really care but the point was Cornell was Duke last year so acting like it's no surprise that it is placing this well is a bit disingenuous

Yes NLJ 250 /=/ V30, many of the lower NLJ firms don't make six figures and wouldn't be considered prestigious for a T14 grad.... also bidding = OCI = basically almost all big law employers so lower NLJ 250 = realistic for the bidding process

with the small classes of duke and cornell 20 people could swing it 10% so yeah bidding/mailing/networking could make up for a lot of the difference

hth[/quote]

Someone on one of the NLJ threads posted that something like 90%+ of all Cornell NLJ 250 placements were V100 or higher.

And if anything it shows that Duke and Cornell place similarly in biglaw firms. For the class of 2008 Cornell outplaced Duke by like 1%? Class of 2009 was Duke outplacing Cornell by 7%? Class of 2010 Cornell outplaced by 20%. Every year Cornell placed at least 40%+ while Duke slipped below 40% in 2010.

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jcunni5
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby jcunni5 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:08 pm

Someone on one of the NLJ threads posted that something like 90%+ of all Cornell NLJ 250 placements were V100 or higher.

And if anything it shows that Duke and Cornell place similarly in biglaw firms. For the class of 2008 Cornell outplaced Duke by like 1%? Class of 2009 was Duke outplacing Cornell by 7%? Class of 2010 Cornell outplaced by 20%. Every year Cornell placed at least 40%+ while Duke slipped below 40% in 2010.


That is impressive but still lower V100 in NYC are not super selective especially for a NYC feeder

As to the 2nd part that's my point Duke = Cornell, they're peer schools, they've always had similar placement besides this year so theres got to be some other factors coming into, obviously a large part is kinda luck b/c the poor numbers this year are the result of No Offers so some people just picked the wrong firm or had a bad work ethic or whatever

It still did 42%. Getting a 58% offer rate ITE is more impressive and persuasive.


it got 42% but last years numbers were better with the majority of the T14 over 50% so 42% last year is probably worse relatively than 38% this year.... but yeah 58% is amazing, i'm not trying to take that away from Cornell, but by the same token it's not likely that it is pure placement power that is driving the number being Columbia, Penn, NYU have usually always been > Cornell except this year

FiveSermon
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:15 pm

jcunni5 wrote:
Someone on one of the NLJ threads posted that something like 90%+ of all Cornell NLJ 250 placements were V100 or higher.

And if anything it shows that Duke and Cornell place similarly in biglaw firms. For the class of 2008 Cornell outplaced Duke by like 1%? Class of 2009 was Duke outplacing Cornell by 7%? Class of 2010 Cornell outplaced by 20%. Every year Cornell placed at least 40%+ while Duke slipped below 40% in 2010.


That is impressive but still lower V100 in NYC are not super selective especially for a NYC feeder

As to the 2nd part that's my point Duke = Cornell, they're peer schools, they've always had similar placement besides this year so theres got to be some other factors coming into, obviously a large part is kinda luck b/c the poor numbers this year are the result of No Offers so some people just picked the wrong firm or had a bad work ethic or whatever

It still did 42%. Getting a 58% offer rate ITE is more impressive and persuasive.


it got 42% but last years numbers were better with the majority of the T14 over 50% so 42% last year is probably worse relatively than 38% this year.... but yeah 58% is amazing, i'm not trying to take that away from Cornell, but by the same token it's not likely that it is pure placement power that is driving the number being Columbia, Penn, NYU have usually always been > Cornell except this year


Well I think most schools barring HYS think placing within V100 is good enough. I think you make it a stretch when you say that Cornell grads had to lower their bar and settle for V100 firms. All V100 start out with 6 figure salaries.

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beachbum
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby beachbum » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:20 pm

I wish we could all just agree that Duke and Cornell (and MVPN) are peers, and GULC is a festering TTT. We don't have to argue over every minute detail, guys.

FiveSermon
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:21 pm

beachbum wrote:I wish we could all just agree that Duke and Cornell (and MVPN) are peers, and GULC is a festering TTT. We don't have to argue over every minute detail, guys.


Where is B??

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Patriot1208
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby Patriot1208 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:22 pm

beachbum wrote:I wish we could all just agree that Duke and Cornell (and MVPN) are peers, and GULC is a festering TTT. We don't have to argue over every minute detail, guys.


Whichever one I go to is definitely better than the others. Also, we can likewise agree that berk sucks.

FiveSermon
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Re: 2011 NLJ BigLaw Placement Rankings

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:24 pm

Why does B get so much hate? Their placements seem in line with other non HYS t14 schools. Is it because they have a low LSAT median?




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