2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

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Stringer6
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby Stringer6 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:54 am

Sorry dude, but I think you're wrong. I'm a little older and I remember when Penn wasn't in the top 10. When they first broke into the top 10 everyone made fun of them for manipulating data. However, that ranking yielded them better numbers and it sorta fed on itself. Now take a look at penn's big law placement. Everyone here says "if you want nyc big law, penn is among the best schools for it." That definitely was not always the case. Perception, driven by ranking manipulation, allowed them to up their medians. At the same time their big law placement improved and rep improved as well.


did you even consider what Above the Law or JDU would think of this before you wrote it?

get it to x
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby get it to x » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:55 am

The fact that anyone would use USNWR to drive their decision makes no sense. All it takes is one scandal or something else for a school's ranking to plummet. Go to the best school that you can get into that is most advantageous to you economically and professionally and not worry about what its ranking is going to be this year, next year, or 10 years down the line. If you're good at your craft, you'll find success anywhere you go.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:56 am

Barbie wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Barbie wrote:I think the rankings can matter for schools in the same area. Such as UF or FSU or even UGA and Emory. If UGA passed Emory in the rankings, I feel like that would be a BIG deal! Same if FSU passed UF. They are schools that essentially compete for the exact same markets, and students will naturally prefer the one of higher ranking much of the time-- which could lead to more competitive #s and higher rankings in the future.

I love you Barbie, but you are flat out wrong. The fact that one school gets really good at manipulating data doesn't mean they are better in any way, shape, or form. WUSTL has been 19 in USNWR for years now, and I would NEVER say we are better than BU, BC, UIUC, or GW. The rankings don't "represent trends" and they aren't "self-fulfilling" or any of that other stuff that people say. They are a rough guide when you're first studying law schools, but for students who actually do their homework on placement and job prospects, they become a total non-issue (or they should). This is no way to decide how to start a legal career. UF is better than FSU, even if some stupid magazine says otherwise. And even if the USNWR rankings meant something over the long-term, that is no reason to pick a school based on a one year fluctuation in the rankings.

Once you get into law school, you will never ever worry about little stuff like this again. USNWR is a joke.


I didn't really mean for one year. I meant that if UGA did, for example, pass Emory for one year... its chances are increased of staying that way (because it would then be cheaper AND better ranked, at the least). But, if UGA were to stay ahead of Emory for some years, I think employment prospects could lean to favor UGA.

Anyway, I obviously didn't choose a school based on rankings :)


That's simple and easy logic. I guarantee you if GULC was ranked #4 for a decade no way in the world would they get the same level of applicants they get now. They'd get 173-178s applying there. Thus recruiters would start to look more to them. I'm not sure why the WUSTL student is having such a hard time with this. No one is saying the rankings are the end all be all but they can represent trends. By the way I'm a 0L but I have worked in a law firm the past three years and if you think lawyers don't care about where their law school is ranked I'll laugh at you. One of my attorney wants the dean at Vandy fired because she thinks that they should be ranked higher.

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thecilent
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby thecilent » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:56 am

Yeah, Romo, I think you are dismissing the rankings too quickly. There is def stock in these rankings all over the legal field - simple as that.

Maybe people shouldn't take it as far as we do here on TLS, but you have to expect 0Ls who frequent TLS will care about this.

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thecilent
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby thecilent » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:56 am

Stringer6 wrote:
Sorry dude, but I think you're wrong. I'm a little older and I remember when Penn wasn't in the top 10. When they first broke into the top 10 everyone made fun of them for manipulating data. However, that ranking yielded them better numbers and it sorta fed on itself. Now take a look at penn's big law placement. Everyone here says "if you want nyc big law, penn is among the best schools for it." That definitely was not always the case. Perception, driven by ranking manipulation, allowed them to up their medians. At the same time their big law placement improved and rep improved as well.


did you even consider what Above the Law or JDU would think of this before you wrote it?

Dude just stop.

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Stringer6
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby Stringer6 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:57 am

And apparently I'm not alone, because ATL had a story not long ago that made fun of how many students pick law schools based on rankings.


the majority of the comments on ATL make fun of the authors of the posts, particularly mystal.

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danquayle
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby danquayle » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:58 am

romothesavior wrote:
Pricer wrote:Barbie made my point here. If UGA were to pass Emory, or to at least tie Emory, I think that it would have an effect on career prospects. That would also move it much closer to Vanderbilt, which is another large opponent in the Atlanta market.

Except there are a whole host of examples of schools that have better/worse rankings that have had not affected their job prospects relative to their peers.

nonprofit-prophet wrote:Sorry dude, but I think you're wrong. I'm a little older and I remember when Penn wasn't in the top 10. When they first broke into the top 10 everyone made fun of them for manipulating data. However, that ranking yielded them better numbers and it sorta fed on itself. Now take a look at penn's big law placement. Everyone here says "if you want nyc big law, penn is among the best schools for it." That definitely was not always the case. Perception, driven by ranking manipulation, allowed them to up their medians. At the same time their big law placement improved and rep improved as well.

Penn has always been a T14, so it probably isn't your best example. There are many examples of schools shooting up the rankings and it having little effect on job prospects.

And like I said, even if this is true, a one year shift in rankings shouldn't make one bit of difference to individual applicants. There are so many other metrics that matter so much more.


WOW WHERE DID YOU GET THAT T-14 CONCEPT FROM! THAT'S REALLY CLEVER AND SOUNDS ACCURATE.

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Stringer6
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby Stringer6 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:59 am

Dude just stop.


sorry. i forgot how serious this was.

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thecilent
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby thecilent » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:00 pm

Stringer6 wrote:
Dude just stop.


sorry. i forgot how serious this was.

It's otay you're forgiven.

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RockyIII
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby RockyIII » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:00 pm

Like I said, the rankings will most likely change by the time current 0Ls graduate. So to choose a school based on how it is ranked tomorrow seems silly. I agree that the rankings are "self-fulfilling" to some extent, but the rankings still change every year...

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thecilent
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby thecilent » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:01 pm

RockyIII wrote:Like I said, the rankings will most likely change by the time current 0Ls graduate. So to choose a school based on how it is ranked tomorrow seems silly. I agree that the rankings are "self-fulfilling" to some extent, but the rankings still change every year...

Yeah, well, we can only go on the most recent year, so what are you even talking about.

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glitched
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby glitched » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:02 pm

seeing how this is where the rankings will first be leaked or scanned or whatever, tag. lol although there will probably be about 10 threads each with identical links.

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DubPoker
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby DubPoker » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:02 pm

get it to x wrote:The fact that anyone would use USNWR to drive their decision makes no sense. All it takes is one scandal or something else for a school's ranking to plummet. Go to the best school that you can get into that is most advantageous to you economically and professionally and not worry about what its ranking is going to be this year, next year, or 10 years down the line. If you're good at your craft, you'll find success anywhere you go.


??? the fact that a scandal hurts a schools USNWR ranking is actually justification in my book. While the students usually are the victims, it does make sense to look down on a program for the usual scandal transgressions.

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romothesavior
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby romothesavior » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:04 pm

thecilent wrote:Yeah, Romo, I think you are dismissing the rankings too quickly. There is def stock in these rankings all over the legal field - simple as that.

Maybe people shouldn't take it as far as we do here on TLS, but you have to expect 0Ls who frequent TLS will care about this.

I do expect 0Ls to care about it, but they shouldn't, or at least not nearly as much as they do.

Also, I don't think the stock the legal profession places in the rankings is as strong as you think it is. The NLJ 250 data does not line up well with the rankings (it is a bit more accurate in the T14, but outside of that, it varies a good deal). I'd be pretty shocked if hiring partners followed the year-to-year fluctuations of law schools.

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romothesavior
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby romothesavior » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:06 pm

Okay you guys have convinced me.

Man, I really hope WUSTL moves up to 17 or 18 so we can get some more recruiters at OCI! If we don't move up, I might have to transfer to a "school on the rise."

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thecilent
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby thecilent » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:07 pm

romothesavior wrote:Okay you guys have convinced me.

Man, I really hope WUSTL moves up to 17 or 18 so we can get some more recruiters at OCI! If we don't move up, I might have to transfer to a "school on the rise."

See now you're getting it :lol:

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RockyIII
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby RockyIII » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:07 pm

thecilent wrote:
RockyIII wrote:Like I said, the rankings will most likely change by the time current 0Ls graduate. So to choose a school based on how it is ranked tomorrow seems silly. I agree that the rankings are "self-fulfilling" to some extent, but the rankings still change every year...


Yeah, well, we can only go on the most recent year, so what are you even talking about.


Example: Last year ASU passed U of A in the rankings. So hypothetically a student chooses ASU over U of A based on this. However, maybe tomorrow we find out that now U of A is higher (not unreasonable). All I'm saying is it seems silly to chose a school based solely on the rankings.

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mez06
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby mez06 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:08 pm

Someone's not on their job. Where the f*ck are the rankings? Are there no worthy admission office trolls out there? Publishing brats destined for law school? I'm saddened that such a day has come. Join me as we say farewell to TLS. Everything that it once was, is no more. Dead.

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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:08 pm

romothesavior wrote:
thecilent wrote:Yeah, Romo, I think you are dismissing the rankings too quickly. There is def stock in these rankings all over the legal field - simple as that.

Maybe people shouldn't take it as far as we do here on TLS, but you have to expect 0Ls who frequent TLS will care about this.

I do expect 0Ls to care about it, but they shouldn't, or at least not nearly as much as they do.

Also, I don't think the stock the legal profession places in the rankings is as strong as you think it is. The NLJ 250 data does not line up well with the rankings (it is a bit more accurate in the T14, but outside of that, it varies a good deal). I'd be pretty shocked if hiring partners followed the year-to-year fluctuations of law schools.


You're right about year to year. But over time things change. If school A is a TTT. but jumps up to 84 this years makes a steady climb to 71 in 4 yrs then has another big jump the next 2 yrs to 55. Then 4yrs later is 39. No way in the world you're going to tell me that both applicants and job prospects will not be different than they were 10yrs ago.

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thecilent
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby thecilent » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:08 pm

RockyIII wrote:
thecilent wrote:
RockyIII wrote:Like I said, the rankings will most likely change by the time current 0Ls graduate. So to choose a school based on how it is ranked tomorrow seems silly. I agree that the rankings are "self-fulfilling" to some extent, but the rankings still change every year...


Yeah, well, we can only go on the most recent year, so what are you even talking about.


Example: Last year ASU passed U of A in the rankings. So hypothetically a student chooses ASU over U of A based on this. However, maybe tomorrow we find out that now U of A is higher (not unreasonable). All I'm saying is it seems silly to chose a school based solely on the rankings.

'based soley' - yes I agree. But it should be a factor.

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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby rbarcelo9 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:09 pm

Tag. Chicago at sticker would be much easier for me if they just jump to #1. C'mon USNews!

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beachbum
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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby beachbum » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:09 pm

I say fuck that, if Duke drops past 11 I'm moving to Guam.

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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:10 pm

mez06 wrote:Someone's not on their job. Where the f*ck are the rankings? Are there no worthy admission office trolls out there? Publishing brats destined for law school? I'm saddened that such a day has come. Join me as we say farewell to TLS. Everything that it once was, is no more. Dead.


This is really sad. I assumed we'd have the rankings in FEB, everything I heard about TLS is a lie, a lie I say :cry:

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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby Wholigan » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:11 pm

Pricer wrote:
Wholigan wrote:Srsly? You wouldn't go to UGA at #28, but you would go at #20? Do you actually think it would change your career prospects or that UGA will become a national school because it suddenly moves up in the rankings?


danquayle wrote:Rankings only matter insomuch as they demonstrate trends, trends which are usually indicative of some more fundamental changes happening at the law school. Indiana rising to 23# from 36 one year doesn't mean much. If Indiana stays at around 25 for a decade it matters a lot, and probably means that they're, in some respect, succeeding in their goal of buying reputation.

Alternatively, Fordham dropping into the 30s for one year doesn't matter. But if Fordham consistently stays in the 30s, or drops further down over time, it might hint at something deeper: perhaps a fundamental shift in the NY legal market wherein jobs are not plentiful enough to sufficiently place Fordham grads at the rate and quality they used to place.

Looking back at historical trends, you can see clearly that some schools have trended higher and some schools have trender lower. UC-Hastings has trended lower, which makes sense given the increasingly competitive California market and waning public support. Meanwhile a school like WUSTL has trended higher, which again also makes sense given WUSTL made a hard and obvious drive to improve its law school ranking over the last few decades.

It's not a terrible idea to use rankings as part of your decision making process, provided you take them in context. It's not crazy to pick a school you think might be "on the upswing" versus a school on down slide, provided you fully accept that you're engaging in pure speculation. Likewise, you might use a ten year look at US News to pick a less volatile school that has a more guaranteed return. That's precisely what people do with the T-14.


I didn't say that I wouldn't go. I said that I am currently having a hard time deciding. Cost of attendance vs. career prospects and prestige is something I am weighing very carefully. I am somewhat debt averse, but I want to be able to secure a good job with my JD. If UGA moved up to #20 in the rankings, it would show an upward trend, as the school jumped to #28 from #35 last year. I am not basing my decision solely on the rankings. I have put hours upon hours into researching these two schools and a couple of others I was considering. UGA moving up 15 spots in two years (my hypothetical) is a pretty big deal.

Barbie wrote:I think the rankings can matter for schools in the same area. Such as UF or FSU or even UGA and Emory. If UGA passed Emory in the rankings, I feel like that would be a BIG deal! Same if FSU passed UF. They are schools that essentially compete for the exact same markets, and students will naturally prefer the one of higher ranking much of the time-- which could lead to more competitive #s and higher rankings in the future.


Barbie made my point here. If UGA were to pass Emory, or to at least tie Emory, I think that it would have an effect on career prospects. That would also move it much closer to Vanderbilt, which is another large opponent in the Atlanta market.


To be honest, I think this scenario is where the rankings matter the least. Maybe if a firm is considering someone from a school they rarely hire from, they check out USNWR to see how that school stacks up compared to schools they do hire from frequently. But if you are interviewing in NYC, the firms are filled with people from NYU and CLS, and they already have their viewpoints of the two schools, which are not going to suddenly change if NYU leapfrogs CLS for a year or two. In a T2 context, the same goes for Temple and Villanova. They are always close to each other, all the firms in Philly have people from both, and I guarantee you no local firms are making hiring decisions based on which is marginally higher in a given year. I bet the same exact thing is true in GA and FL with UF/FSU/UGA/Emory. Other than that, the only reasons attorneys care so much about their alma maters is their own vanity and bragging rights. Wanting the dean fired due to rankings is no different than wanting the football coach fired after a big bowl loss.

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Re: 2012 U.S. News Rankings (March 15th... It's official)

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:12 pm

rbarcelo9 wrote:Tag. Chicago at sticker would be much easier for me if they just jump to #1. C'mon USNews!


would consider this a little more:

Chicago ranks second on the "Top 15 Schools From Which the Most 'Prestigious' Law Firms Hire New Lawyers"; second for "Faculty quality based on American Academy of Arts and Sciences Membership"; third for "Supreme Court Clerkship Placement"; and fifth for "Student Quality".[8] The Law School is also notable for having the third highest gross and third highest per capita placement of alumni as U.S. Supreme Court clerkships (16% for the years 2000-2008)[9], with approximately 15-25% of each graduating class going on to a state or federal clerkship




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