Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

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Sandro
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Sandro » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:41 am

even with half tuition at UMN oos i think you are still looking at 120k :shock:

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ndirish2010
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby ndirish2010 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:07 pm

romothesavior wrote:
Sandro wrote:I think a lot of you need to step back and realize how much of a difference we are talking about here. If school A places say, 20% into NLJ250 and school B places 10% - is that really such a huge jump ? Is that something you would pay ~120k more for a shot at ? A 10% difference at the top of the class?

I thought conventional TLS wisdom was go to a school you feel comfortable ending up at median. Median at a school that places 20% is probably going to get shut out the same way median at a school that places 10%. Difference is you now have ~120k+ debt at WUSTL vs one of its less prestigious "T30" brothers.

I think I basically agree with this, although I will say that a school placing 10-15% vs. 20-25% probably means the difference between NLJ 250 and non-NLJ 250 for me at this stage. I can tell you very bluntly that being the top 10% and being in the top 25% is a very different situation, and the latter takes a lot more/smarts skill.

But is it worth 120k? No, probably not. I don't recommend WUSTL at sticker, and I wouldn't recommend BU/BC/UMN/ND or any of the other schools mentioned ITT at sticker.


+1. There is a difference between 10% and 25%. You shouldn't go anywhere that places less than 35-40% at sticker.

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rman1201
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby rman1201 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:09 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Sandro wrote:I think a lot of you need to step back and realize how much of a difference we are talking about here. If school A places say, 20% into NLJ250 and school B places 10% - is that really such a huge jump ? Is that something you would pay ~120k more for a shot at ? A 10% difference at the top of the class?

I thought conventional TLS wisdom was go to a school you feel comfortable ending up at median. Median at a school that places 20% is probably going to get shut out the same way median at a school that places 10%. Difference is you now have ~120k+ debt at WUSTL vs one of its less prestigious "T30" brothers.

I think I basically agree with this, although I will say that a school placing 10-15% vs. 20-25% probably means the difference between NLJ 250 and non-NLJ 250 for me at this stage. I can tell you very bluntly that being the top 10% and being in the top 25% is a very different situation, and the latter takes a lot more/smarts skill.

But is it worth 120k? No, probably not. I don't recommend WUSTL at sticker, and I wouldn't recommend BU/BC/UMN/ND or any of the other schools mentioned ITT at sticker.


+1. There is a difference between 10% and 25%. You shouldn't go anywhere that places less than 35-40% at sticker.


What about a hypothetical school that placed around 34.6% in 09?

flcath
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby flcath » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:11 pm

ndirish2010 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
Sandro wrote:I think a lot of you need to step back and realize how much of a difference we are talking about here. If school A places say, 20% into NLJ250 and school B places 10% - is that really such a huge jump ? Is that something you would pay ~120k more for a shot at ? A 10% difference at the top of the class?

I thought conventional TLS wisdom was go to a school you feel comfortable ending up at median. Median at a school that places 20% is probably going to get shut out the same way median at a school that places 10%. Difference is you now have ~120k+ debt at WUSTL vs one of its less prestigious "T30" brothers.

I think I basically agree with this, although I will say that a school placing 10-15% vs. 20-25% probably means the difference between NLJ 250 and non-NLJ 250 for me at this stage. I can tell you very bluntly that being the top 10% and being in the top 25% is a very different situation, and the latter takes a lot more/smarts skill.

But is it worth 120k? No, probably not. I don't recommend WUSTL at sticker, and I wouldn't recommend BU/BC/UMN/ND or any of the other schools mentioned ITT at sticker.


+1. There is a difference between 10% and 25%. You shouldn't go anywhere that places less than 35-40% at sticker.

I think this is a fairly good general rule.

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Hannibal
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Hannibal » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:27 pm

flcath wrote:
ndirish2010 wrote:
+1. There is a difference between 10% and 25%. You shouldn't go anywhere that places less than 35-40% at sticker.

I think this is a fairly good general rule.


What.

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FuManChusco
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby FuManChusco » Mon Feb 28, 2011 12:45 pm

Sandro wrote:I think a lot of you need to step back and realize how much of a difference we are talking about here. If school A places say, 20% into NLJ250 and school B places 10% - is that really such a huge jump ? Is that something you would pay ~120k more for a shot at ? A 10% difference at the top of the class?

I thought conventional TLS wisdom was go to a school you feel comfortable ending up at median. Median at a school that places 20% is probably going to get shut out the same way median at a school that places 10%. Difference is you now have ~120k+ debt at WUSTL vs one of its less prestigious "T30" brothers.


While I agree, WUSTL tends to throw scholly $$$ around more than anyone so this scenario seems unlikely.

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fl0w
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby fl0w » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:13 pm

hey guys. uhh.. i go to wustl (1L). buddy pointed this thread out to me in class and i was all like zomg wtf!?

So my opinion on our career services... could be better. Why? There are so many people here who do NOT want to be in St. Louis. It's been mentioned before in this thread that WUSTL peoples come from all over the place, and they want to go back.

Guess what. That hurts us in our OCI because the vast majority of our OCI is St. Louis jobs. And St. Louis recruiters view WUSTL law students as a flight risk. They KNOW we are trying to get out. So they don't bother. The school tells us to carefully craft personal statements to explain why we love St. Louis and want to make it our home to balance out the fact that we are from a different city.

That being said, I'm not in the top 10% (hell not even top third) and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I had 5 years of work experience in technology consulting coming in and my attitude was that if the law thing didn't work out, I could go back to my old career. I'm lucky enough to be able to think like that because WUSTL was SO GENEROUS with the scholly that they gave me ($$$$).

If you come to wustl from out of town and you want to go somewhere not in st. louis, you need to make it happen yourself. Nobody is going to hand you a job. Do the work. Personally, I've been lucky enough to land a summer externship clerking for the 9th Circuit (N.D. Cal in San Fran) with three kids from Berkley. And yes, I got shut out of OCI on at the school, I found this job on my own.

For a guy to come out of CHI, go to wustl on fat scholly, not place in top 1/3 of class, then get a summer job for a district judge in San Fran means a few things.

1) I'm lucky (read "black")
2) i hustle (read "errry day i'm wustlin'")
3) i didn't let any of these numbers tell me what i could or could not accomplish

I'll add that I think my situation is "atypical" but it should give hope to some people. And it wouldn't be possible of the judge bought into this "wustl hate" that everyone seems to jump on here. Sure wustl isn't a "national" school like some of the T14 schools, but nobody looks at it and says "oh, that school blowz, can't hire him."

Lessons? WUSTL is a good school. If you know what you want to do, come in with a plan to make that job search a success. Career Services will help in your plan, but YOU NEED A PLAN... they won't just make one for you. "God (if you believe in such a thing) helps those who help themselves").

People spend far too much time on numbers. Spend that time hustlin' (or rather, wustlin').

Bumi
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Bumi » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:44 pm

fl0w wrote:hey guys. uhh.. i go to wustl (1L). buddy pointed this thread out to me in class and i was all like zomg wtf!?

So my opinion on our career services... could be better. Why? There are so many people here who do NOT want to be in St. Louis. It's been mentioned before in this thread that WUSTL peoples come from all over the place, and they want to go back.

Guess what. That hurts us in our OCI because the vast majority of our OCI is St. Louis jobs. And St. Louis recruiters view WUSTL law students as a flight risk. They KNOW we are trying to get out. So they don't bother. The school tells us to carefully craft personal statements to explain why we love St. Louis and want to make it our home to balance out the fact that we are from a different city.

That being said, I'm not in the top 10% (hell not even top third) and I'm not ashamed to admit it. I had 5 years of work experience in technology consulting coming in and my attitude was that if the law thing didn't work out, I could go back to my old career. I'm lucky enough to be able to think like that because WUSTL was SO GENEROUS with the scholly that they gave me ($$$$).

If you come to wustl from out of town and you want to go somewhere not in st. louis, you need to make it happen yourself. Nobody is going to hand you a job. Do the work. Personally, I've been lucky enough to land a summer externship clerking for the 9th Circuit (N.D. Cal in San Fran) with three kids from Berkley. And yes, I got shut out of OCI on at the school, I found this job on my own.

For a guy to come out of CHI, go to wustl on fat scholly, not place in top 1/3 of class, then get a summer job for a district judge in San Fran means a few things.

1) I'm lucky (read "black")
2) i hustle (read "errry day i'm wustlin'")
3) i didn't let any of these numbers tell me what i could or could not accomplish

I'll add that I think my situation is "atypical" but it should give hope to some people. And it wouldn't be possible of the judge bought into this "wustl hate" that everyone seems to jump on here. Sure wustl isn't a "national" school like some of the T14 schools, but nobody looks at it and says "oh, that school blowz, can't hire him."

Lessons? WUSTL is a good school. If you know what you want to do, come in with a plan to make that job search a success. Career Services will help in your plan, but YOU NEED A PLAN... they won't just make one for you. "God (if you believe in such a thing) helps those who help themselves").

People spend far too much time on numbers. Spend that time hustlin' (or rather, wustlin').


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon

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fl0w
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby fl0w » Mon Feb 28, 2011 4:58 pm

Bumi wrote:
fl0w wrote:bunch of crap i said


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Just-world_phenomenon


uhh... not sure your reference is germane. if you think it is, you've misunderstood what I was trying to say. I'm actually quite the cynic. I don't believe the world is a just place at all. This is why I think people need to stop standing around with their hands out or worrying about numbers that they can't always control. All people can control is what they do, so get out and bust your ass to get it.

If I had sat on my butt and just hoped that OCI was going to work out, I would have been pretty disappointed.

My stance is that, by default, the universe will shit on you. So bring a shit-proof umbrella.

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Hannibal
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Hannibal » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:01 pm

Yeah I definitely agree with fl0w here. This situation, where people bank on OCI, is either based on laziness for not researching actual job placements or just overall laziness/overconfidence.

Or maybe I just enacted the Just World thing.

keg411
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby keg411 » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:21 pm

fl0w, the same could be said about a ton of schools; WUSTL isn't alone in that if you want to go outside of the school's region it will take a lot of leg work. That's why 90% of law schools are regional and the tiers should really matter a lot less than the region one wants to work in.

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fl0w
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby fl0w » Mon Feb 28, 2011 5:30 pm

keg411 wrote:fl0w, the same could be said about a ton of schools; WUSTL isn't alone in that if you want to go outside of the school's region it will take a lot of leg work. That's why 90% of law schools are regional and the tiers should really matter a lot less than the region one wants to work in.


you're right, it can be said about a lot of schools. but it's a WUSTL thread, so I said it about WUSTL.

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romothesavior
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby romothesavior » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:29 pm

fl0w wrote:That hurts us in our OCI because the vast majority of our OCI is St. Louis jobs.

I agree with most of what fl0w just said, but this particular statement is not right. The majority of 1L OCI jobs are in STL, but that is not necessarily true of our 2L OCI. 2L OCI will feature far more firms from Chicago, as well as a smattering of firms from Indianapolis, New York, DC, Milwaukee, Kansas City, etc. (through a combination of on-campus interviewing, resume collects, and off-campus interviewing programs). But there are only so many firms in St. Louis, and there is no chance that they dominate OCI. After all, our primary market is Chicago.

With that said, I agree with fl0w that no one should come here without realizing that winding up outside of the Midwest is tough without solid connections, good grades, and a lot of legwork. WUSTL is a strong regional school with some national reach, not the other way around, and no one should come here thinking it is going to open up geographic doors just on account of your enrollment here. You have to open those doors yourself. This ain't a T14 and it ain't a national powerhouse, and anyone who thinks it is should think long and hard before coming here.

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fl0w
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby fl0w » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:34 pm

romothesavior wrote:
fl0w wrote:That hurts us in our OCI because the vast majority of our OCI is St. Louis jobs.

I agree with most of what fl0w just said, but this particular statement is not right. The majority of 1L OCI jobs are in STL


fl0w wrote:That hurts us in our OCI because the vast majority of our OCI is St. Louis jobs.


that is what i meant by "our," but you caught my ambiguity.

Now I just need to find a way for the school to give me a stipend for my externship since it's unpaid. I find it pretty crap that externships are excluded from the summer stipend.

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romothesavior
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby romothesavior » Mon Feb 28, 2011 6:46 pm

fl0w wrote:Now I just need to find a way for the school to give me a stipend for my externship since it's unpaid. I find it pretty crap that externships are excluded from the summer stipend.

Yeah, I'm not sure I understand the distinction either. I just think they don't view judicial interns as contributing to the public interest. I dunno how other schools handle it.

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JCougar
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby JCougar » Tue Mar 01, 2011 5:22 am

romothesavior wrote:
fl0w wrote:That hurts us in our OCI because the vast majority of our OCI is St. Louis jobs.

I agree with most of what fl0w just said, but this particular statement is not right. The majority of 1L OCI jobs are in STL, but that is not necessarily true of our 2L OCI. 2L OCI will feature far more firms from Chicago, as well as a smattering of firms from Indianapolis, New York, DC, Milwaukee, Kansas City, etc. (through a combination of on-campus interviewing, resume collects, and off-campus interviewing programs). But there are only so many firms in St. Louis, and there is no chance that they dominate OCI. After all, our primary market is Chicago.

With that said, I agree with fl0w that no one should come here without realizing that winding up outside of the Midwest is tough without solid connections, good grades, and a lot of legwork. WUSTL is a strong regional school with some national reach, not the other way around, and no one should come here thinking it is going to open up geographic doors just on account of your enrollment here. You have to open those doors yourself. This ain't a T14 and it ain't a national powerhouse, and anyone who thinks it is should think long and hard before coming here.


Also California. We had 18 firm offices from CA recruiting at 2009 OCI, one of the worst OCIs in the last decade (more offices than Illinois). I'm sick of people downplaying the nationality of this school's job prospects. You may have to be in the top third to get interviews ITE, but if you are, you have a chance to work anywhere in the country.

We also had:

DC: 14 offices
Florida: 6 offices
Atlanta: 3 offices
Illinois: 17 offices
Kentucky: 5 offices
Boston: 4 offices
NYC: 11 offices
Ohio: 8 offices
Texas: 10 offices
Milwaukee: 6 offices

As well as a bunch of other states having 1-2 offices. Clearly, according to the firms that show up at OCI, it's a national school. It doesn't have an overwhelming number from any region, and you're not going to get many OCI interviews at median, but if you come here and do well, you have plenty of options.

And these numbers are from the absolute bottom of OCI (2009). It's only going to get better from here.

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