Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

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FuManChusco
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby FuManChusco » Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:31 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
Attorney wrote:
YourCaptain wrote:I guess if I make fun of the school it's because of it being overrated w/r/t employment

I think if we've learned anything in this thread, it's that even if there is a small spread between WU's USN ranking and its placement, the overrated schools w/r/t employment are actually some of its peers right behind it in the rankings. Such as UNC, Indiana, Iowa, Minnesota, and Wisconsin.

Maybe what makes WUSTL a bigger target for the TLS masses is that it has a ranking that is barely into the "teens" instead of 20s. Or that it is a small wealthy private school instead of a Big Ten public. Who knows! But the employment prospects versus its ranking and geographic location are pretty good.


If you ignore than BU/BC trounce it biglaw-wise, then its ranked accordingly.


You never stop do you?

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby rman1201 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:42 pm

whys does wustl get everyone so upset? yall mad?

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Blindmelon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:42 pm

FuManChusco wrote:If you ignore than BU/BC trounce it biglaw-wise, then its ranked accordingly.


You never stop do you?[/quote]

I just really don't like Attorney, a lot. Its just fun to troll him a little.

As I said before, 18-30ish are peers and its all based on region.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Attorney » Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:07 pm

Blindmelon wrote:I just really don't like Attorney, a lot.

LOL, u mad bro?

It's funny how you think you're trolling me when peeps in the other thread were to the point of scolding me for trolling you so hard when I didn't even intend to.

You: try really hard at trolling, but fail.
Me: try not to troll, but still your feelings get hurt.

I've got absolutely nothing against you bro, you're just collateral damage because you are obsessed with US News rankings for some sad reason.

Also, if you really want to troll someone it would help if you would respond to the points made once in a while.

Blindmelon wrote:As I said before, 18-30ish are peers and its all based on region.

Actually almost right. Probably more like 19-25. There is a differentiation between Illinois and Minnesota, for example, but not between WUSTL and Illinois. For my money, 25-30 schools like Iowa and Indiana are not quite the equivalent of T25s like Notre Dame. And this is from someone who is very seriously considering taking the $$$$ at Indiana.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Blindmelon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 1:45 pm

The internet is serious business guys.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby anti-phronimos » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:46 pm

Attorney wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:As I said before, 18-30ish are peers and its all based on region.

Actually almost right. Probably more like 19-25. There is a differentiation between Illinois and Minnesota, for example, but not between WUSTL and Illinois. For my money, 25-30 schools like Iowa and Indiana are not quite the equivalent of T25s like Notre Dame. And this is from someone who is very seriously considering taking the $$$$ at Indiana.


What criterion are you using to distinguish between these schools? To me, it seems the best explanatory piece of information we have concerning the differences in placement for that range is region. Maybe explain your reasoning?


WUSTL is a fine school, but I can understand some hesitation about the school considering:
1. It's likely that the market WUSTL can easily dominate [st. louis] is undesirable for most students who attend. On the other hand, if you are gunning for st. louis or the midwest in general [but not chicago], then you're doing well for yourself by going there.
2. Concerning chicago, I think most TLSers can agree that its market got slammed worse than NYC and DC, and if you're at WUSTL getting pumped for competition in chicago from UC, HYS, NW, Mich, remaining T14>everyone else, then I wish you luck.
3. Gaming the rankings, in my view, is totally fine. WUSTL obviously has the money, so it should spend it on student scholarships and better facilities, faculty, whatever. However, and I could be wrong, but it looks like WUSTL has the highest jump in rankings in the T1 [1994-48th to now-19]. I would be a little cautious about whether such a jump really entails substantive change for students in terms of job prospects outside of st. louis.

I'm considering WUSTL and from st. louis, so these concerns have been bouncing around for awhile.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby seriously???? » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:04 pm

Attorney wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:As I said before, 18-30ish are peers and its all based on region.

Actually almost right. Probably more like 19-25. There is a differentiation between Illinois and Minnesota, for example, but not between WUSTL and Illinois. For my money, 25-30 schools like Iowa and Indiana are not quite the equivalent of T25s like Notre Dame. And this is from someone who is very seriously considering taking the $$$$ at Indiana.



I'm sorry dude,but to say that IUB is not quite as good as ND is a major understatement. Aside from making the statement that ND is better than WUSTL, they are both relatively good schools. I demand people to show me proof that IUB is nothing more than a respected TTT. Seriously, I have seen no good stats about IUB to date, and I am getting sick to my stomach how everyone that is psyched about the IUB schollies know absolutely nothing about its employment prospects. Ranked 14 on vault rankings, ranked 25 in USNRW, so obviously it has to be a great school? However, there is no data to reflect this. Of course, I will be ignored on this issue, because everyone psyched about IUB is oblivious to this issue, but as an east coaster worried about being stuck in a three person law firm in a tiny town in Indiana, I'm asking questions, and I am not getting answers.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Attorney » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:20 pm

seriously???? wrote:
Attorney wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:As I said before, 18-30ish are peers and its all based on region.

Actually almost right. Probably more like 19-25. There is a differentiation between Illinois and Minnesota, for example, but not between WUSTL and Illinois. For my money, 25-30 schools like Iowa and Indiana are not quite the equivalent of T25s like Notre Dame. And this is from someone who is very seriously considering taking the $$$$ at Indiana.



I'm sorry dude,but to say that IUB is not quite as good as ND is a major understatement. Aside from making the statement that ND is better than WUSTL, they are both relatively good schools. I demand people to show me proof that IUB is nothing more than a respected TTT. Seriously, I have seen no good stats about IUB to date, and I am getting sick to my stomach how everyone that is psyched about the IUB schollies know absolutely nothing about its employment prospects. Ranked 14 on vault rankings, ranked 25 in USNRW, so obviously it has to be a great school? However, there is no data to reflect this. Of course, I will be ignored on this issue, because everyone psyched about IUB is oblivious to this issue, but as an east coaster worried about being stuck in a three person law firm in a tiny town in Indiana, I'm asking questions, and I am not getting answers.


You should have directed that to the person I was responding to. "18-30ish are peers and its all based on region". I was simply stating that WUSTL and Minnesota (or Illinois and Indiana) are not really peers when it comes to the top 30 schools that happen to be located in the midwest. So we agree, even as you may be taking this shared view to more of an extreme.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Attorney » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:28 pm

anti-phronimos wrote:
Attorney wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:As I said before, 18-30ish are peers and its all based on region.

Actually almost right. Probably more like 19-25. There is a differentiation between Illinois and Minnesota, for example, but not between WUSTL and Illinois. For my money, 25-30 schools like Iowa and Indiana are not quite the equivalent of T25s like Notre Dame. And this is from someone who is very seriously considering taking the $$$$ at Indiana.


What criterion are you using to distinguish between these schools? To me, it seems the best explanatory piece of information we have concerning the differences in placement for that range is region. Maybe explain your reasoning?


WUSTL is a fine school, but I can understand some hesitation about the school considering:
1. It's likely that the market WUSTL can easily dominate [st. louis] is undesirable for most students who attend. On the other hand, if you are gunning for st. louis or the midwest in general [but not chicago], then you're doing well for yourself by going there.
2. Concerning chicago, I think most TLSers can agree that its market got slammed worse than NYC and DC, and if you're at WUSTL getting pumped for competition in chicago from UC, HYS, NW, Mich, remaining T14>everyone else, then I wish you luck.
3. Gaming the rankings, in my view, is totally fine. WUSTL obviously has the money, so it should spend it on student scholarships and better facilities, faculty, whatever. However, and I could be wrong, but it looks like WUSTL has the highest jump in rankings in the T1 [1994-48th to now-19]. I would be a little cautious about whether such a jump really entails substantive change for students in terms of job prospects outside of st. louis.

I'm considering WUSTL and from st. louis, so these concerns have been bouncing around for awhile.


I'm mainly using placement to differentiate them, since they're all midwestern schools placing into many of the same markets. I wouldn't put any weight at all into circa 1994 rankings. That was back when a certain Ivy League school regularly had 40-50% acceptance rates to its undergrad programs (Penn being the one, with an undergrad acceptance rate of something like 48% in 1992 or so... today it is probably 1/3 of that figure).

The Ivy League has become far more selective than it used to be, making other schools such as U of Chicago and even WUSTL also far more selective as sort of a domino effect. In the 1950s, WUSTL was a mostly regional school even for undergrad with 60%+ acceptance rates. Today it has 28,000+ applications for 1,500 spots in undergrad. An additional factor to the wind at its back caused by far more people being shut out of the Ivies, WUSTL has used its mega-endowment well and bought its way into the "big leagues". Things will never go back to 1994 numbers for any schools, but especially the ones that have really changed quite a bit like Penn undergrad and WUSTL law.

Also, if you're really worried about it, leave out the USN rankings entirely and just look at Big Law (or whatever) placement rankings. It should be obvious to you that WUSTL was not #48 in placement, ever. (Likely, as you suggest, because it's kind of a big deal in St. Lou.)

I do agree that people who could never see themselves working in St. Louis ITE, should never consider WUSTL. As many have said, outside of the T14 (and even including say Georgetown), all lawl schools place regionally.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby seriously???? » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:35 pm

i got rejected at Illinois, so lknow little of the school, but it might be a stretch to consider illinois as a peer of IUB.

but again, we are ignoring the IUB question. As someone that is considering taking the near full ride, what statistics are out there that makes IUB worthy of being ranked in the 70's in terms of rankings? maybe US news adds the good jobs that IU-Indy grads get to IUB's stats

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Attorney » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:42 pm

seriously???? wrote:i got rejected at Illinois, so lknow little of the school, but it might be a stretch to consider illinois as a peer of IUB.

but again, we are ignoring the IUB question. As someone that is considering taking the near full ride, what statistics are out there that makes IUB worthy of being ranked in the 70's in terms of rankings? maybe US news adds the good jobs that IU-Indy grads get to IUB's stats

As a reminder, I have done nothing but argue that Illinois > Indiana. Blindmelon was the person saying that all in the USN T30 are basically equal other than geographic differences.

NLJ 250 placement puts Indiana outside of the T50. IU-Indy too. As far as statistics to comfort you about IU versus IU-Indy, so far I've found this link, which shows when the economy was good, 4% of Indiana students summered with Vault 25 firms (the most prestigious in the land) compared to 6% of WUSTL students. IU-Indy did not make the list (not a single student placed into the V25 that year). Take it a step further to the V100 and you have almost 9% WUSTL, 6% Indiana, and <1% IU-Indy.

Of course, whether you go to IU or WUSTL or IU-Indy, odds are that you're never working for a V25 firm. Neither am I. :P

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby PomasThynchon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:26 pm

anti-phronimos wrote:
Attorney wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:As I said before, 18-30ish are peers and its all based on region.

Actually almost right. Probably more like 19-25. There is a differentiation between Illinois and Minnesota, for example, but not between WUSTL and Illinois. For my money, 25-30 schools like Iowa and Indiana are not quite the equivalent of T25s like Notre Dame. And this is from someone who is very seriously considering taking the $$$$ at Indiana.


What criterion are you using to distinguish between these schools? To me, it seems the best explanatory piece of information we have concerning the differences in placement for that range is region. Maybe explain your reasoning?


WUSTL is a fine school, but I can understand some hesitation about the school considering:
1. It's likely that the market WUSTL can easily dominate [st. louis] is undesirable for most students who attend. On the other hand, if you are gunning for st. louis or the midwest in general [but not chicago], then you're doing well for yourself by going there.
2. Concerning chicago, I think most TLSers can agree that its market got slammed worse than NYC and DC, and if you're at WUSTL getting pumped for competition in chicago from UC, HYS, NW, Mich, remaining T14>everyone else, then I wish you luck.
3. Gaming the rankings, in my view, is totally fine. WUSTL obviously has the money, so it should spend it on student scholarships and better facilities, faculty, whatever. However, and I could be wrong, but it looks like WUSTL has the highest jump in rankings in the T1 [1994-48th to now-19]. I would be a little cautious about whether such a jump really entails substantive change for students in terms of job prospects outside of st. louis.

I'm considering WUSTL and from st. louis, so these concerns have been bouncing around for awhile.


To be fair, between 1994 and now is very nearly 20 years. BU moved almost as much in a slightly shorter span of time.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Feb 27, 2011 5:29 pm

This thread makes me shake my head in disgust. Really, arguing which 19-50 schools are peers??

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Attorney » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:09 pm

tkgrrett wrote:This thread makes me shake my head in disgust. Really, arguing which 19-50 schools are peers??

People even argue about which T14 schools are peers, big time. Let's see, there is HYS. There is CCN. And there is MVP. Then there's the rest of 'em. Or how about the T18? T14 + Vandy, Texas, and the two LA schools. Why should 19-50 be any different? Why should 51-100 be any different? Small differences matter when a choice involves lots of $$$ and moving to strange cities.

If that makes you shake your head in disgust, you really don't belong on TLS.

(Which now that I mention it, most people don't belong on TLS! Law students would be better off studying, while 0Ls would be better off having the last sex of our lives.)

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby anti-phronimos » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:28 pm

Attorney wrote:
anti-phronimos wrote:
Attorney wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:As I said before, 18-30ish are peers and its all based on region.

Actually almost right. Probably more like 19-25. There is a differentiation between Illinois and Minnesota, for example, but not between WUSTL and Illinois. For my money, 25-30 schools like Iowa and Indiana are not quite the equivalent of T25s like Notre Dame. And this is from someone who is very seriously considering taking the $$$$ at Indiana.


What criterion are you using to distinguish between these schools? To me, it seems the best explanatory piece of information we have concerning the differences in placement for that range is region. Maybe explain your reasoning?


WUSTL is a fine school, but I can understand some hesitation about the school considering:
1. It's likely that the market WUSTL can easily dominate [st. louis] is undesirable for most students who attend. On the other hand, if you are gunning for st. louis or the midwest in general [but not chicago], then you're doing well for yourself by going there.
2. Concerning chicago, I think most TLSers can agree that its market got slammed worse than NYC and DC, and if you're at WUSTL getting pumped for competition in chicago from UC, HYS, NW, Mich, remaining T14>everyone else, then I wish you luck.
3. Gaming the rankings, in my view, is totally fine. WUSTL obviously has the money, so it should spend it on student scholarships and better facilities, faculty, whatever. However, and I could be wrong, but it looks like WUSTL has the highest jump in rankings in the T1 [1994-48th to now-19]. I would be a little cautious about whether such a jump really entails substantive change for students in terms of job prospects outside of st. louis.

I'm considering WUSTL and from st. louis, so these concerns have been bouncing around for awhile.


I'm mainly using placement to differentiate them, since they're all midwestern schools placing into many of the same markets. I wouldn't put any weight at all into circa 1994 rankings. That was back when a certain Ivy League school regularly had 40-50% acceptance rates to its undergrad programs (Penn being the one, with an undergrad acceptance rate of something like 48% in 1992 or so... today it is probably 1/3 of that figure).

The Ivy League has become far more selective than it used to be, making other schools such as U of Chicago and even WUSTL also far more selective as sort of a domino effect. In the 1950s, WUSTL was a mostly regional school even for undergrad with 60%+ acceptance rates. Today it has 28,000+ applications for 1,500 spots in undergrad. An additional factor to the wind at its back caused by far more people being shut out of the Ivies, WUSTL has used its mega-endowment well and bought its way into the "big leagues". Things will never go back to 1994 numbers for any schools, but especially the ones that have really changed quite a bit like Penn undergrad and WUSTL law.

Also, if you're really worried about it, leave out the USN rankings entirely and just look at Big Law (or whatever) placement rankings. It should be obvious to you that WUSTL was not #48 in placement, ever. (Likely, as you suggest, because it's kind of a big deal in St. Lou.)

I do agree that people who could never see themselves working in St. Louis ITE, should never consider WUSTL. As many have said, outside of the T14 (and even including say Georgetown), all lawl schools place regionally.


I guess I should clarify my reference to WUSTL's big jump in the rankings--in response to the general question, "why do people rip on WUSTL?" I think a lot can be blamed, whether valid or not, on the uncertainty concerning WUSTL's ability to place students outside of St. Louis ITE, i.e., does that #19 mean wustl, the school and not the connections of any particular student, can get you out of st. louis?

When I was working at a local coffee shop, we had SLU and WUSTL law students come in frequently and I got to know a few of them over the years. The SLU students knew they were st. louis bound for life, but all those WUSTLers were going to chicago, california, seattle, new york city, dc, and all the other places these kids had left behind when they decided to attend WUSTL. I think the people ripping on WUSTL are more aligned with the notion that WUSTL is primarily a regional school with little power in chicago ITE, and it has, for some reason, gained traction as a school that is immune to that distinction, perhaps for its diverse student body, but not based on the school's strength outside the region.

What are those students who didn't land biglaw doing now? I'm not sure, but they probably went back home to their respective markets, hence the appearance of wide placement power. Who knows. None of what I've just said is conclusive against WUSTL in any way, but it potentially outlines some uneasiness about its supposed strength.

@ Attorney: If you're biglaw or bust, then NLJ250 placement as the criterion for judging peer schools makes sense. But if you're going to include anything else: clerkships, PI, Gov, locality preference, etc., then you're going to have trouble making a case for such fine-line distinctions being anything more than arbitrary.

tkgrrett wrote:This thread makes me shake my head in disgust. Really, arguing which 19-50 schools are peers??


Me too, mostly...maybe not shaking in digust, but perhaps in confusion.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby romothesavior » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:29 pm

Haven't signed on all weekend, but I had a feeling this thread would still be going on.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Attorney » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:51 pm

anti-phronimos wrote:I guess I should clarify my reference to WUSTL's big jump in the rankings--in response to the general question, "why do people rip on WUSTL?" I think a lot can be blamed, whether valid or not, on the uncertainty concerning WUSTL's ability to place students outside of St. Louis ITE, i.e., does that #19 mean wustl, the school and not the connections of any particular student, can get you out of st. louis?

When I was working at a local coffee shop, we had SLU and WUSTL law students come in frequently and I got to know a few of them over the years. The SLU students knew they were st. louis bound for life, but all those WUSTLers were going to chicago, california, seattle, new york city, dc, and all the other places these kids had left behind when they decided to attend WUSTL. I think the people ripping on WUSTL are more aligned with the notion that WUSTL is primarily a regional school with little power in chicago ITE, and it has, for some reason, gained traction as a school that is immune to that distinction, perhaps for its diverse student body, but not based on the school's strength outside the region.

What are those students who didn't land biglaw doing now? I'm not sure, but they probably went back home to their respective markets, hence the appearance of wide placement power. Who knows. None of what I've just said is conclusive against WUSTL in any way, but it potentially outlines some uneasiness about its supposed strength.

@ Attorney: If you're biglaw or bust, then NLJ250 placement as the criterion for judging peer schools makes sense. But if you're going to include anything else: clerkships, PI, Gov, locality preference, etc., then you're going to have trouble making a case for such fine-line distinctions being anything more than arbitrary.

tkgrrett wrote:This thread makes me shake my head in disgust. Really, arguing which 19-50 schools are peers??


Me too, mostly...maybe not shaking in digust, but perhaps in confusion.


It's highly unlikely that people on TLS, most of whom were learning how to say "Daddy" in 1994, would rip on WUSTL because of those antiquated rankings. Again, it's a lot like someone ripping on UPenn for undergrad because they were worried that Penn was not very selective in the early 1990s. As for getting out of St. Louis, I've seen little to tell me that it's a different story than getting out of Illinois for Illini students, getting out of Atlanta for Emory students, etc.

I'd love if anyone could provide numbers between these schools for "clerkships, PI, Gov, locality preference, etc." Unlike the differences between Yale and Columbia though, it's also unlikely that say WUSTL students are all going into PI while Illinois students are all "Big Law or bust" in comparison. But again, if anyone can show us that Big Law placement is not a good proxy for overall placement for these schools, I'd love to see that and it's a fair point to be considered.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:08 pm

Attorney wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:This thread makes me shake my head in disgust. Really, arguing which 19-50 schools are peers??

People even argue about which T14 schools are peers, big time. Let's see, there is HYS. There is CCN. And there is MVP. Then there's the rest of 'em. Or how about the T18? T14 + Vandy, Texas, and the two LA schools. Why should 19-50 be any different? Why should 51-100 be any different? Small differences matter when a choice involves lots of $$$ and moving to strange cities.

If that makes you shake your head in disgust, you really don't belong on TLS.

(Which now that I mention it, most people don't belong on TLS! Law students would be better off studying, while 0Ls would be better off having the last sex of our lives.)


This is really dumb because all the damn schools you guys are arguing about are peers. You know what the spread between wustl and ND is this year?? 6 students(meaning wustl jumps ahead if they had 6 more placed and ND had 6 less). There is no difference.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Lawquacious » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:11 pm

Attorney wrote:I do agree that people who could never see themselves working in St. Louis ITE, should never consider WUSTL. As many have said, outside of the T14 (and even including say Georgetown), all lawl schools place regionally.



Maybe I am misunderstanding what you were trying to say in the above section, but if you are suggesting that Georgetown is more regional than other T14 schools (or at least most mid- to lower- T14, since HYS will have the best reach and mobility of T14) then I think you are way off. In talking with attorneys (and a judge) most of the way across the country I have found that Georgetown has equivalent or greater name recognition and placement power than a number of higher T14 schools, even though it is true that other T14s tend to place better in terms of class percentages into BigLaw (yet much of that BigLaw placement is in the region close to the schools). I admit I'm a fan of GULC (and maybe you were intentionally trolling in any case, or perhaps I misinterpreted what you meant as I initially indicated was possible), but a statement that Georgetown is more regional than other T14s is just plain wrong as far as I can tell.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Attorney » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:21 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
Attorney wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:This thread makes me shake my head in disgust. Really, arguing which 19-50 schools are peers??

People even argue about which T14 schools are peers, big time. Let's see, there is HYS. There is CCN. And there is MVP. Then there's the rest of 'em. Or how about the T18? T14 + Vandy, Texas, and the two LA schools. Why should 19-50 be any different? Why should 51-100 be any different? Small differences matter when a choice involves lots of $$$ and moving to strange cities.

If that makes you shake your head in disgust, you really don't belong on TLS.

(Which now that I mention it, most people don't belong on TLS! Law students would be better off studying, while 0Ls would be better off having the last sex of our lives.)


This is really dumb because all the damn schools you guys are arguing about are peers. You know what the spread between wustl and ND is this year?? 6 students(meaning wustl jumps ahead if they had 6 more placed and ND had 6 less). There is no difference.

Dude, pay attention! I grouped ND and WUSTL together, just not ND and Indiana or ND and Minnesota. kthx

If you have a point, it's that this is almost as stupid as CCN vs MVP... but it's certainly not MORE stupid. There is far less daylight between NYU and Michigan than there is between WUSTL and Indiana.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Attorney » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:44 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
Attorney wrote:I do agree that people who could never see themselves working in St. Louis ITE, should never consider WUSTL. As many have said, outside of the T14 (and even including say Georgetown), all lawl schools place regionally.



Maybe I am misunderstanding what you were trying to say in the above section, but if you are suggesting that Georgetown is more regional than other T14 schools (or at least most mid- to lower- T14, since HYS will have the best reach and mobility of T14) then I think you are way off. In talking with attorneys (and a judge) most of the way across the country I have found that Georgetown has equivalent or greater name recognition and placement power than a number of higher T14 schools, even though it is true that other T14s tend to place better in terms of class percentages into BigLaw (yet much of that BigLaw placement is in the region close to the schools). I admit I'm a fan of GULC (and maybe you were intentionally trolling in any case, or perhaps I misinterpreted what you meant as I initially indicated was possible), but a statement that Georgetown is more regional than other T14s is just plain wrong as far as I can tell.

Georgetown Law Center is great. (One of the smartest gents I know went there with a comparable offer from UVA.) It's just that, super-majorities from there goes into DC and NYC, and there isn't much of an alumni network on say the left coast, or in Texas, or really anywhere but BosWash. Strange for such a large school with so many alums. Self-selection can explain it, but they are apparently hyper-concentrated in just two cities even when compared to all the other T14s.

This is all second-hand info though, so if you are considering GULC then I say go for it but if you are only looking at Cali or something like that for employment prospects, research that info to double-check before you turn down UCLA or whatever.

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Attorney
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Attorney » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:54 pm

romothesavior wrote:Haven't signed on all weekend, but I had a feeling this thread would still be going on.

Welcome back, romo! I'll turn this place back over to you and/or other people who actually, like, attend WUSTL and stuff. Hopefully that will end the endless ranking delineations, which apparently is my doing.

:!:

Bumi
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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Bumi » Mon Feb 28, 2011 1:26 am

Attorney wrote:I'd love if anyone could provide numbers between these schools for "clerkships, PI, Gov, locality preference, etc."


I don't know how to do the other ones, but clerkship isn't too hard. Here's a clerkship ranking roundup.

You'd probably want to average out over a few years to really get a good picture, though, because these are extremely small numbers.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby Sandro » Mon Feb 28, 2011 10:48 am

I think a lot of you need to step back and realize how much of a difference we are talking about here. If school A places say, 20% into NLJ250 and school B places 10% - is that really such a huge jump ? Is that something you would pay ~120k more for a shot at ? A 10% difference at the top of the class?

I thought conventional TLS wisdom was go to a school you feel comfortable ending up at median. Median at a school that places 20% is probably going to get shut out the same way median at a school that places 10%. Difference is you now have ~120k+ debt at WUSTL vs one of its less prestigious "T30" brothers.

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Re: Why do people here make WUSTL out to be worse than...

Postby romothesavior » Mon Feb 28, 2011 11:30 am

Sandro wrote:I think a lot of you need to step back and realize how much of a difference we are talking about here. If school A places say, 20% into NLJ250 and school B places 10% - is that really such a huge jump ? Is that something you would pay ~120k more for a shot at ? A 10% difference at the top of the class?

I thought conventional TLS wisdom was go to a school you feel comfortable ending up at median. Median at a school that places 20% is probably going to get shut out the same way median at a school that places 10%. Difference is you now have ~120k+ debt at WUSTL vs one of its less prestigious "T30" brothers.

I think I basically agree with this, although I will say that a school placing 10-15% vs. 20-25% probably means the difference between NLJ 250 and non-NLJ 250 for me at this stage. I can tell you very bluntly that being the top 10% and being in the top 25% is a very different situation, and the latter takes a lot more/smarts skill.

But is it worth 120k? No, probably not. I don't recommend WUSTL at sticker, and I wouldn't recommend BU/BC/UMN/ND or any of the other schools mentioned ITT at sticker.




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