Is Cardozo with $$$ good in this economy? Forum

[ballpop]

Because I am a local and would have no problem living in N Jersey or and outer borough, I should be able to keep debt around 65k (plus accrual) for all three years, assuming I get something that pays/a stipend in the summers.

Is it worth it? I am thinking that with a chance at BigLaw if I hit the jackpot, do law review etc, a great alternative dispute resolution program, wanting to work in NYC/North Jersey, it wouldn't be a bad idea (I am also multilingual and this might be an advatage when looking for jobs with a certificate in ADR). It also seems to have an above average LRAP for a marginal T1/T2 if I go the PI route, and decent placement in that.

Other options right now are Fordham with little to no money, Temple and Seton Hall with full scholarships, American (we will see in March about money, but they are stingy), Iowa with $$. Still waiting on BC (and probably will go with even a small scholarship as the difference in CoL and tuition between in an Cardozo makes it about 12k cheaper a year for me at sticker).

Been marginally if decently employed, but it is tough getting out of the temp cycle.

Yes or no?

[ballpop]

Oh yea---importantly, only a top 80% stipulation

Got a similar deal from BLS

[bk1]

You won't necessarily get a paying summer gig your first year.

Is Cardozo for around 50-60k debt good? Well if you want to be a lawyer in the NYC area then it is fine by my standards. Don't assume you will be doing any of the prestigious options as it is unlikely.

If you are looking to make decent money then I wouldn't say it is good, but if you just want to be a lawyer it is definitely a better decision than Fordham at or close to sticker.

[El_Gallo]

1. Do you want to live in the region? Check

2. Can you graduate with a moderate amount of debt? Check

Sure, why not?

[ballpop]

You won't necessarily get a paying summer gig your first year.

Is Cardozo for around 50-60k debt good? Well if you want to be a lawyer in the NYC area then it is fine by my standards. Don't assume you will be doing any of the prestigious options as it is unlikely.

If you are looking to make decent money then I wouldn't say it is good, but if you just want to be a lawyer it is definitely a better decision than Fordham at or close to sticker.

What is decent money to you?

[bk1]

What is decent money to you?

Something like 50k+ (post-tax, post-loan repayments on a 10 year plan) which I feel is decidedly unlikely coming from Cardozo.

[Wholigan]

What would your total debt be at Temple or Seton Hall? $65k seems like a low number for Cardozo without a full ride and NYC COL. If you don't have a preference between outer boroughs and NJ, I'd at least consider SHU.

[ballpop]

What would your total debt be at Temple or Seton Hall? $65k seems like a low number for Cardozo without a full ride and NYC COL. If you don't have a preference between outer boroughs and NJ, I'd at least consider SHU.

It is a very near full ride---and the fact that Cardozo is in the village puts in on the PATH trains, the L, the 23, AC, JMZ I think...which means my CoL would be identical to SHU unless I decided to live in Newark, which I probably wouldn't either way.

At Seton Hall or Temple it would be around 50k debt.

[ballpop]

What is decent money to you?

Something like 50k+ (post-tax, post-loan repayments on a 10 year plan) which I feel is decidedly unlikely coming from Cardozo.

So like 80-90k? I'd say it is not unusual but not unlikely right out of Cardozo, but my loan repayment will probably be closer to 9k or so a year and I think 65k-75k jobs at smaller firms in NYC are pretty common so I am within striking distance of that---not to mention the more experience I get the more pay I will probably get.

[bk1]

So like 80-90k? I'd say it is not unusual but not unlikely right out of Cardozo, but my loan repayment will probably be closer to 9k or so a year and I think 65k-75k jobs at smaller firms in NYC are pretty common so I am within striking distance of that---not to mention the more experience I get the more pay I will probably get.

You are seriously overestimating what kind of pay fresh grads get at small firms.

[Rule11]

What is decent money to you?

Something like 50k+ (post-tax, post-loan repayments on a 10 year plan) which I feel is decidedly unlikely coming from Cardozo.

So like 80-90k? I'd say it is not unusual but not unlikely right out of Cardozo, but my loan repayment will probably be closer to 9k or so a year and I think 65k-75k jobs at smaller firms in NYC are pretty common so I am within striking distance of that---not to mention the more experience I get the more pay I will probably get.

For your situation Cardozo is not a terrible choice, but this post suggests to me that you might have unrealistic expectations. You should be prepared for the possibility that the only jobs available to you will be in the 30-40k range, and that even those will be difficult to get. Of course better outcomes are possible from Cardozo, but unless you're pretty close to the top of the class, those outcomes are unlikely to be your outcome. And do not count on being at the top of your class.

Also, you need to prepare yourself NOW to drop out immediately if you lose your scholarship, the year of sunk costs be damned.

[ballpop]

So like 80-90k? I'd say it is not unusual but not unlikely right out of Cardozo, but my loan repayment will probably be closer to 9k or so a year and I think 65k-75k jobs at smaller firms in NYC are pretty common so I am within striking distance of that---not to mention the more experience I get the more pay I will probably get.

You are seriously overestimating what kind of pay fresh grads get at small firms.

I know for a fact that when you are talking NYC offices of 40-80 lawyer firms in NYC (entire firm across states) starting salaries are around 75k and I have seen as high as 125k

For what it is worth, the employment stats of Cardozo (I know but it is just an indicator) say that in 2-10 person firms, the reported median in 60k and the average is higher than that by a few g's---and outside of biglaw this is where most grads seem to go

So a bit of an overstatement but 60 minus ~30% in taxes (probably far too high estimate really) =~42k-9k is 33k. I can live on 2800 a month as a single guy in NYC pretty easily (I'd say 2300 is about as low as I could go living decently)

And this is assuming I am not in the ~10-15% in biglaw, and is seems approximately the same percentage in midlaw (who seem to make about 80-120k) and then on top of this, if I really enjoy PI work, they just got a 5 million dollar endowment for LRAP

And even if I go to Fordham or BC, it seems like my chances go from 20% at biglaw to 30-35% at Fordham/BC...

Does this make any sense at all?

[ballpop]

For your situation Cardozo is not a terrible choice, but this post suggests to me that you might have unrealistic expectations. You should be prepared for the possibility that the only jobs available to you will be in the 30-40k range, and that even those will be difficult to get. Of course better outcomes are possible from Cardozo, but unless you're pretty close to the top of the class, those outcomes are unlikely to be your outcome. And do not count on being at the top of your class.

Also, you need to prepare yourself NOW to drop out immediately if you lose your scholarship, the year of sunk costs be damned.

Really? I know that only ~70-75% report salary info in employment stats, but outside of the special situations of clerkships and PI, median salaries in every sector and size of firm are far higher than this...

[bk1]

I know for a fact that when you are talking NYC offices of 40-80 lawyer firms in NYC (entire firm across states) starting salaries are around 75k and I have seen as high as 125k

For what it is worth, the employment stats of Cardozo (I know but it is just an indicator) say that in 2-10 person firms, the reported median in 60k and the average is higher than that by a few g's---and outside of biglaw this is where most grads seem to go

So a bit of an overstatement but 60 minus ~30% in taxes (probably far too high estimate really) =~42k-9k is 33k. I can live on 2800 a month as a single guy in NYC pretty easily (I'd say 2300 is about as low as I could go living decently)

And this is assuming I am not in the ~10-15% in biglaw, and is seems approximately the same percentage in midlaw (who seem to make about 80-120k) and then on top of this, if I really enjoy PI work, they just got a 5 million dollar endowment for LRAP

And even if I go to Fordham or BC, it seems like my chances go from 20% at biglaw to 30-35% at Fordham/BC...

Does this make any sense at all?

I would say a 20% chance at biglaw is an overestimate for Cardozo ITE. If you are looking at an almost full ride to Cardozo, LRAP really isn't important to the conversation.

You realize that those stats fudge the truth, right? Not everybody reports salary data and it is far more likely that those on the lower end are the ones who fail to report. This ignores the fact that in 2008 only 2/3 of Cardozo grads actually reported their salary and things are far worse now. So yes, I'd say that getting 60k from a small firm is not the reality for Cardozo grads.

ETA: IIRC, salaries in the sub-50k range are more common than salaries in the 50-120k range.

[ballpop]

I would say a 20% chance at biglaw is an overestimate for Cardozo ITE. If you are looking at an almost full ride to Cardozo, LRAP really isn't important to the conversation.

You realize that those stats fudge the truth, right? Not everybody reports salary data and it is far more likely that those on the lower end are the ones who fail to report. This ignores the fact that in 2008 only 2/3 of Cardozo grads actually reported their salary and things are far worse now. So yes, I'd say that getting 60k from a small firm is not the reality for Cardozo grads.

ETA: IIRC, salaries in the sub-50k range are more common than salaries in the 50-120k range.

I hate it when people say it is "fudging the truth" especially with Cardozo---EVERYTHING in there to see

http://www.cardozo.yu.edu/MemberContent ... ntid=10310

97% reporting employment info, of which 93% are employed at six months, so ~90% employed assuming everyone who didn't report is unemployed. 63% at firms (so ~57% overall) of which 90% report salary (far lower overall, 79 percent, I will come to this later) so STILL over 50% reporting at law firms alone---which seem to be bimodally distributed at 60k and 160k, with about 15% in between.

Now assuming 79% reporting, and 90% reporting in law firms, which represent ~60% of the employed graduates...about 55% of the rest are reporting...and outside of PI and clerkships, are making 50-70k.

This all comes to my basic idea of the school---DO NOT graduate in the bottom 25%, but if you graduate around median you should be fine (50-65k) and in the top 25% you have a clear shot at big money or settling for 60-80k jobs.

Good or bad analysis?

[bk1]

Good or bad analysis?

Only 75% of their class is reporting salary info. I would tend to assume those not reporting salary data are almost exclusively on the low end of the salary range and thus the medians/means are way inflated. Not to mention that this is for the class of 2009 who did OCI in 2007 (prior to the crash) and thus paints a much more optimistic picture than the way it is for current grads.

I'm not saying Cardozo is purposefully trying to obscure the truth, I am saying that the fact that 1 in 4 of their grads doesn't report salary info means that you cannot trust their medians or their means.

[ballpop]

Really TLS---a tie? You suck!

[keg411]

I didn't vote in the poll, but it's better than your other options if you want to go to law school. At least you seem to have the right idea (go to school where you live, keep debt as low as possible, etc.). I do think you're overestimating your first year salary and should take that into consideration.

I also would NOT take SHU whatever you do. Cut that off your list, and then visit Cardozo and Temple, see which one you actually prefer and then make your decision. Just understand that there is a good chance that you will be unemployed at graduation from any of these schools.

[ballpop]

I didn't vote in the poll, but it's better than your other options if you want to go to law school. At least you seem to have the right idea (go to school where you live, keep debt as low as possible, etc.). I do think you're overestimating your first year salary and should take that into consideration.

I also would NOT take SHU whatever you do. Cut that off your list, and then visit Cardozo and Temple, see which one you actually prefer and then make your decision. Just understand that there is a good chance that you will be unemployed at graduation from any of these schools.

What is a "good chance"?

Obviously it is hard to tell, but crunching the numbers it looks like about 20-30% from Cardozo....

[Robespierre]

Good school, great area, big scholarship, reasonable debt, noble profession, what's not to like?

Don't overreact to the present down economic climate. A JD will earn you a lot of money in the long run; enough to make back your investment several times over.

[afc1910]

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[bk1]

You're wrong. 60-75k is exactly what fresh grads at smaller firms get in NY. Even out on Long Island. Even working for the government. I get slightly over 50k working as a paralegal. And I have a useless liberal arts bacheror's from a CUNY school.

Also, when you start at a small firm at 65k, there is a lot of opportunity for growth. It's not just the starting salary that matters. OP will be repaying his loans for at least 10 years after graduation. I doubt that if he starts at 65k his first year he will stay there until he's retired.

So you're saying that a Cardozo grad is pretty much guaranteed to be making over 60k starting (I am assuming the vast majority of them get firm jobs)? I really find this hard to believe thought I'd like other opinions on it and really hope that is actually true.

[maglialoro]

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[bk1]

Data from National Law Journal is less likely to be exaggerated than data from Cardozo website i think. Here is data from 2009 .

http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

According to this, 20% is not an exaggerated number.

May I point you to what I said:

I would say a 20% chance at biglaw is an overestimate for Cardozo in this economy.

The class of 2009 is not ITE.

[maglialoro]

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