CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

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CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

CCN/PBMV at sticker
58
82%
U. of Illinois for free
13
18%
 
Total votes: 71

somewhere
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CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby somewhere » Wed Feb 23, 2011 2:57 pm

I sense from other discussions that most people on TLS will jump at CCNPBMV, but I've been told several times in offline conversations (with law students & recent grads, a few currently at CCNPBMV) that 200k in debt is crazy these days and free is free, and I'd be nuts to turn down a full ride at a just-not-quite top-20 school.

Sticker could mean near-sticker, but suppose 150k+ debt. Maybe 200k+.

So I'm especially interested in your reasoning, above just poll data. Why would you choose one over the other?

If you're interested in PI?

Federal clerkships?

Biglaw?

If you're not sure what you want yet?

If you want to live in Chicago? If you don't?

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ndirish2010
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:06 pm

If you want to live in Chicago and you want a federal clerkship or biglaw, I don't see how Chicago is not worth it. Sure, you can get those things from Illinois, but it will only be about the top fifth or quarter of the class. At Chicago, 2/3 or more will be competitive for them.

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src42
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby src42 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:09 pm

If it were me, I'd do all of CCNPBMV at sticker before Illinois with full ride. Even if you're at the top of your class at Illinois, you're pretty limited as far as location. In the long run, you're gonna want a top school on your resume.

Seriously, there's no reason to pick Illinois over U Chicago.

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bk1
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:12 pm

If you have high goals then it is clearly not the strong regional school. I think that the T12 are good enough investments to justify at sticker though going to a regional school for free is certainly less risky.

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ajcollege
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby ajcollege » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:12 pm

It really hinges on how happy you'll be spending the rest of your life looking up to UChicago and Northwestern grads, as you'll be most likely stuck in the Midwest.

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ndirish2010
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby ndirish2010 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:19 pm

src42 wrote:If it were me, I'd do all of CCNPBMV at sticker before Illinois with full ride. Even if you're at the top of your class at Illinois, you're pretty limited as far as location. In the long run, you're gonna want a top school on your resume.

Seriously, there's no reason to pick Illinois over U Chicago.


Top of your class at a T25 is going to do pretty well. The problem is getting there.

CanadianWolf
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby CanadianWolf » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:23 pm

You can add Northwestern & Duke to your list of schools worth sticker over Illinois at full tuition, in my opinion.

somewhere
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby somewhere » Wed Feb 23, 2011 3:42 pm

Regional flexibility is definitely a huge issue, and that is a major factor for me, personally. Going somewhere outside of Illinois will be a lot harder from U. of Illinois than it would be from the other schools.

Other than that, though, does anybody care to spell out the reasoning more specifically?

Is it certain that being top third (or whatever) at, say, CCN, is going to be easier than being top tenth or top 5% (or whatever) at Illinois?

Edit: to be clear, I'm assuming that competition will be tougher at higher ranked schools. Might it not be the case that, holding aptitude and quantity of work constant, the same student who struggles to be top-(small number)% at Illinois will also struggle to be top-(bigger number)% at the higher ranked school?

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pilchc
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby pilchc » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:08 pm

Tag. I am facing the same decision.
I am leaning towards Illinois for free and it's because I think I can stay in the top 25% of the class. According to a lot of TLS forums, that is a horrible assumption. However, I plan on grinding away at the books for 60+ hours a week and doing whatever it takes to stay competitive.

Another reason is because I prefer the risk of struggling to find a job over the risk of struggling to pay off loans.

If I can graduate with little debt, I will be happy working in medium law or even small law.

Here is a helpful employment graph. http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/composite.pdf
Last edited by pilchc on Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tea_drinker
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby tea_drinker » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:14 pm

somewhere wrote:If you're interested in PI?

Federal clerkships?

Biglaw?

If you're not sure what you want yet?

If you want to live in Chicago? If you don't?


1. Define PI. If you are thinking DOJ type of PI, then CCN. If you are thinking normal non-profit, then Illinois

2. Fed Clerkship, if aiming for COA or SCOTUS, then CCN. If DC, then illinois will suffice

3. If Chicago big law, Illinois will suffice. If DC, NYC, or other markets, CCN are preferable.

4. If you are not sure, CCN

5. If you want to live in Chicago, Uchi. If you dont, CCN.

FiveSermon
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby FiveSermon » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:16 pm

Tell us whether it's CCN or MVP or B. There is a big difference between paying sticker at CCN vs MVP.

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tea_drinker
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby tea_drinker » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:18 pm

FiveSermon wrote:Tell us whether it's CCN or MVP or B. There is a big difference between paying sticker at CCN vs MVP.


what?

FiveSermon
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby FiveSermon » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:21 pm

tea_drinker wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Tell us whether it's CCN or MVP or B. There is a big difference between paying sticker at CCN vs MVP.


what?


What?

Rule11
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby Rule11 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:57 pm

tea_drinker wrote:
1. Define PI. If you are thinking DOJ type of PI, then CCN. If you are thinking normal non-profit, then Illinois

2. Fed Clerkship, if aiming for COA or SCOTUS, then CCN. If DC, then illinois will suffice

3. If Chicago big law, Illinois will suffice. If DC, NYC, or other markets, CCN are preferable.



Um...

1. Paid PI can be as difficult to get as biglaw these days. DOJ honors has always been difficult, but now the other stuff is only slightly less difficult. All of the T14 have respectable LRAPs, so debt is less of an issue if you're committed to PI anyway. So, definitely not the right advice.

2. I actually chortled at this one. Illinois will "suffice" to get you a federal district court clerkship if you're top 5-10% + LR + inherently lucky.

3. The amateur anthropologist in me is curious about what "numbers" you consulted before concluding that Illinois would "suffice" for Chicago big law. In the sense that you'll get a J.D. when you graduate, and a J.D. is a necessary condition for Chicago big law, Illinois will "suffice." Speaking realistically, though, you'd need top 10% to have a legit chance at Chicago big law (and even then it's far from a sure thing).

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bk1
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 4:58 pm

tea_drinker wrote:1. Define PI. If you are thinking DOJ type of PI, then CCN. If you are thinking normal non-profit, then Illinois

2. Fed Clerkship, if aiming for COA or SCOTUS, then CCN. If DC, then illinois will suffice

3. If Chicago big law, Illinois will suffice. If DC, NYC, or other markets, CCN are preferable.

4. If you are not sure, CCN

5. If you want to live in Chicago, Uchi. If you dont, CCN.


Really, your justification for a school is that it will suffice?

somewhere
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby somewhere » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:33 pm

FiveSermon wrote:Tell us whether it's CCN or MVP or B. There is a big difference between paying sticker at CCN vs MVP.


Well, in my own case: I'm currently waiting on C & C, accepted at N, and also weighing (and accepted at) M and P.

However, I am interested in the hypothetical, so if the different scenarios result in different advice, I'd love to hear the advice and the reasoning you have for distinguishing the scenarios.

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tea_drinker
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby tea_drinker » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:34 pm

Rule11 wrote:
1. Paid PI can be as difficult to get as biglaw these days. DOJ honors has always been difficult, but now the other stuff is only slightly less difficult. All of the T14 have respectable LRAPs, so debt is less of an issue if you're committed to PI anyway. So, definitely not the right advice.

2. I actually chortled at this one. Illinois will "suffice" to get you a federal district court clerkship if you're top 5-10% + LR + inherently lucky.

3. The amateur anthropologist in me is curious about what "numbers" you consulted before concluding that Illinois would "suffice" for Chicago big law. In the sense that you'll get a J.D. when you graduate, and a J.D. is a necessary condition for Chicago big law, Illinois will "suffice." Speaking realistically, though, you'd need top 10% to have a legit chance at Chicago big law (and even then it's far from a sure thing).


1. Sure, T14s have LRAP. But OP has a free ride, and I am talking about typical non-profit work. So instead of counting on LRAP, is it better to just get your JD basically for free, and do whatever non-profit works you want without worrying about LRAP's conditions?

2. And you think you can get clerkship if you are not at least in top 25% at CCN? I assume the top of your class requirement was implied.

3. I should not used the word suffice. However, UIUC grads do get Chicago big firm jobs.
Last edited by tea_drinker on Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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tea_drinker
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby tea_drinker » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:36 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
tea_drinker wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:Tell us whether it's CCN or MVP or B. There is a big difference between paying sticker at CCN vs MVP.


what?


What?


What is the big difference you refer?

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bk1
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:37 pm

tea_drinker wrote:3. I should not used the word suffice. However, UIUC grads do get Chicago big firm jobs.


People win the lottery, that doesn't mean people should buy lotto tickets.

Making decisions based on what is possible rather than what is probable is inordinately stupid.

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tea_drinker
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby tea_drinker » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:39 pm

bk1 wrote:
tea_drinker wrote:3. I should not used the word suffice. However, UIUC grads do get Chicago big firm jobs.


People win the lottery, that doesn't mean people should buy lotto tickets.

Making decisions based on what is possible rather than what is probable is inordinately stupid.


And getting Chicago big firm jobs from CCN regardless of one's class rank is definite?

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masochist
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby masochist » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:47 pm

Tag.

I am in the same boat with UIUC (full tuition) vs Duke (?, but maybe sticker). Interestingly, most of the people I talk to in law school have said to go with Duke regardless of the cost, but most of the people I've talked to who graduated from law school in the last 4 years have said to go with UIUC. UIUC does very well regionally, and I am mostly talking to people who work in Chicago so my sample is biased. That said, 200K on a 10-year repayment plan is about 2300/mo. If I make anything less than 100K a year after I leave LS, my net income will end up declining as a result of earning a law degree.

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bk1
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:48 pm

tea_drinker wrote:And getting Chicago big firm jobs from CCN regardless of one's class rank is definite?


I'd say that getting Chicago biglaw from UChi at median isn't unreasonable.

I'm not saying whether CCN at sticker is a better choice than Illinois for free, I am saying that if one really wants to do biglaw and/or clerkships then CCN is the definite choice between the two (and not too risky considering how many kids from those schools land it). That being said, if one truly wanted to absolutely make sure one avoided suffering under debt then Illinois for free is good deal but that would assume one was willing to forgo much of a chance at biglaw/clerkships.

somewhere
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby somewhere » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:48 pm

This is one of my biggest continual questions on the TLS forums:

It seems like a lot of people are implicitly reasoning that top-10 (or CCN, or whatever the case may be) is better for certain purposes than, say, Illinois, because you need to be in the top half or top third of your class at CCN to attain that purpose, whereas you need to be in the top 5% at Illinois.

The missing assumption is that it's harder to be in the top 5% at Illinois than the top third or half at CCN.

But do we know that this is a valid assumption? Presumably the competition will be tougher at CCN. Maybe I need to be talking to somebody who spent a year at a sub-T20 school and transferred into a T10 school. Anybody fit that description?

Because if somebody's worried that they might struggle to be at the top of their class at the lower-ranked school, how can they be so sure that they won't struggle to say in the top third or half at the higher-ranked one?

If, for example, BigLaw requires top 50% at NYU or top 5% at Illinois (I'm making those numbers up— feel free to correct them with real data if you've got it), do I have a good reason to assume that the former is easier to attain than the latter?

(Obviously it's a different scenario if you want something that doesn't just require being top-5% at Illinois; like, say, something that you could be #1 in your class and still likely not get.)

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bk1
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:49 pm

masochist wrote:Tag.

I am in the same boat with UIUC (full tuition) vs Duke (?, but maybe sticker). Interestingly, most of the people I talk to in law school have said to go with Duke regardless of the cost, but most of the people I've talked to who graduated from law school in the last 4 years have said to go with UIUC. UIUC does very well regionally, and I am mostly talking to people who work in Chicago so my sample is biased. That said, 200K on a 10-year repayment plan is about 2300/mo. If I make anything less than 100K a year after I leave LS, my net income will end up declining as a result of earning a law degree.


If you are looking at law school from a net income perspective rather than a "I want to be a lawyer and I am trying to make it financially feasible" perspective then you are bound to be disappointed.

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jcunni5
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Re: CCNPBMV at sticker or U. of Illinois for free?

Postby jcunni5 » Wed Feb 23, 2011 5:59 pm

somewhere wrote:This is one of my biggest continual questions on the TLS forums:

It seems like a lot of people are implicitly reasoning that top-10 (or CCN, or whatever the case may be) is better for certain purposes than, say, Illinois, because you need to be in the top half or top third of your class at CCN to attain that purpose, whereas you need to be in the top 5% at Illinois.

The missing assumption is that it's harder to be in the top 5% at Illinois than the top third or half at CCN.

But do we know that this is a valid assumption? Presumably the competition will be tougher at CCN. Maybe I need to be talking to somebody who spent a year at a sub-T20 school and transferred into a T10 school. Anybody fit that description?

Because if somebody's worried that they might struggle to be at the top of their class at the lower-ranked school, how can they be so sure that they won't struggle to say in the top third or half at the higher-ranked one?

If, for example, BigLaw requires top 50% at NYU or top 5% at Illinois (I'm making those numbers up— feel free to correct them with real data if you've got it), do I have a good reason to assume that the former is easier to attain than the latter?

(Obviously it's a different scenario if you want something that doesn't just require being top-5% at Illinois; like, say, something that you could be #1 in your class and still likely not get.)


TLS is wisdom is that the competition for class rank will be tough anywhere especially since law school grades are somewhat arbitrary. This is especially true in your situation since i doubt UIUC kids are that much dumber than CCNMVP kids (we're talking a couple of questions on the lsat nothing major). Getting top 5% at any school even at a TTT is not an easy task and the best bet is to go to the school that has the best options for median students.

UIUC is not doing that well regionally anymore (as opposed to 4 years ago) alot of big Chi firms only did OCI at U of C, NU, and U Mich.. if you go to UIUC you will basically be accepting that you will not get big law or a fed clerkship and you will be struggling to get a decent PI job against the rest of your class mates




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