Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

What would you do?

Penn
26
19%
UCLA
11
8%
Duke ($48 grand)
55
40%
Mich ($45 grand)
39
29%
USC
4
3%
G'town
1
1%
Cornell
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 136

showNprove
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby showNprove » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:40 pm

You guys don't need to take playful jabbing so seriously (even though I do stand by my point that Michigan > Duke).

J-tow10
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby J-tow10 » Sat Feb 26, 2011 2:43 pm

Don't discount the Michigan alumni network on the West coast (large presence of law grads and people who went to undergrad there). Like the USC network, it's a very close group.

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Bosque
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby Bosque » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:16 pm

showNprove wrote:You guys don't need to take playful jabbing so seriously (even though I do stand by my point that Michigan > Duke).


Lol, I find it quite hilarious that you are saying "Chill dudes, I was kidding" and "I am totally right, and because I just said chill dudes you can't say anything about it."

What an ass.

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Reedie
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby Reedie » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:24 pm

Bosque wrote:Lol, I find it quite hilarious that you are saying "Chill dudes, I was kidding" and "I am totally right, and because I just said chill dudes you can't say anything about it."

What an ass.


I don't know about you, dude, but I'm totally stressing out and am not properly chilled.

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FlightoftheEarls
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby FlightoftheEarls » Sat Feb 26, 2011 3:57 pm

Bosque wrote:
showNprove wrote:You guys don't need to take playful jabbing so seriously (even though I do stand by my point that Michigan > Duke).


Lol, I find it quite hilarious that you are saying "Chill dudes, I was kidding" and "I am totally right, and because I just said chill dudes you can't say anything about it."

What an ass.

To be fair (why am I writing so many posts that start with this line these days?), I would take that attitude every time over the "T14 XYZ is going to be on par with Boston College in 10 years" idiocy that some have been spewing on here. I'm all for sticking up for Duke since I don't think those numbers mean much at all, but you can't pretend like a certain member of your school who shamelessly trolled for Duke (and unabashedly tried his best to shit on Michigan for the past year) hasn't made it extremely tempting for people to tease Duke now that these numbers are out.

In any event, I feel like we're getting away from the topic at hand. My suggesting to OP is still to visit the ASWs and get a feel for each community and school. Also, and only out of personal curiosity, I am still interested in why you are willing to bet that a high percentage of Duke's students go into transactional work.

showNprove
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby showNprove » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:17 pm

Bosque wrote:
showNprove wrote:You guys don't need to take playful jabbing so seriously (even though I do stand by my point that Michigan > Duke).


Lol, I find it quite hilarious that you are saying "Chill dudes, I was kidding" and "I am totally right, and because I just said chill dudes you can't say anything about it."

What an ass.

Somebody is pretty unnerved about his school's placement falling off a cliff.

I was teasing about Duke = GULC, but I maintain that Michigan > Duke. Not too hard to separate and say I was kidding about one.

You can say all you want about it. At this point, you don't have much of a leg to stand on. The whole "Duke is a peer to Michigan" thing is based solely off Duke's per capita placement numbers. Now you don't have that. If you want to keep talking about the fact that you don't have it, by all means, continue.

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Reedie
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby Reedie » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:29 pm

showNprove wrote: The whole "Duke is a peer to Michigan" thing is based solely off Duke's per capita placement numbers.


Not really. Duke and Michigan seem to compete for the same students. They have very similar faculty qualities as assessed by things like citation analysis. Although it is also true that placement stats are pretty similar for the two, though that seems to be one of the hardest things to get a real handle on. The recent NLJ stats don't really change that.

Overall posters here tend to magnify the differences between ALL of these schools. Your comment seemed to be some sort of "hahahaha Duke is terrible like Georgetown," which really indicates to me how much of the kool aid you've had. Georgetown is also a great school.

showNprove
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby showNprove » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:42 pm

Reedie wrote:Not really. Duke and Michigan seem to compete for the same students. They have very similar faculty qualities as assessed by things like citation analysis. Although it is also true that placement stats are pretty similar for the two, though that seems to be one of the hardest things to get a real handle on. The recent NLJ stats don't really change that.

Overall posters here tend to magnify the differences between ALL of these schools. Your comment seemed to be some sort of "hahahaha Duke is terrible like Georgetown," which really indicates to me how much of the kool aid you've had. Georgetown is also a great school.

Georgetown is a great school--so are Texas, UCLA, and Vanderbilt. You can choose your level of generality to convenience yourself however you'd like: compared to all law schools, Michigan, Duke, and Georgetown are all similarly great; compared to each other, though, you have to dissect the schools at a more detailed level or don't bother doing so at all. Considering a lot people are choosing between Michigan, Duke, and Georgetown, it's not unfair to look closer at the schools in order to differentiate them somehow.

So if you ask me whether Duke is more like Michigan or Georgetown, I'd say that it's somewhere in between. If you asked me whether Duke was a great school, I'd say, "Of course."

All of the Duke students/admits want to accuse me of saying "Duke sucks" because I said "Duke is not as good as Michigan." If I have come off a little over the top, it's because I recognized that there are at least 3 Duke students/admits in this thread, and I love pushing your buttons.

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Reedie
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby Reedie » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:49 pm

showNprove wrote:All of the Duke students/admits want to accuse me of saying "Duke sucks" because I said "Duke is not as good as Michigan."


No, we all just think you are talking out of your ass because the data available allows no such fine grained distinction.

showNprove
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby showNprove » Sat Feb 26, 2011 4:56 pm

Reedie wrote:
showNprove wrote:All of the Duke students/admits want to accuse me of saying "Duke sucks" because I said "Duke is not as good as Michigan."


No, we all just think you are talking out of your ass because the data available admits of no such fine grained distinction.

See, e.g., NLJ250 (2010 and 2009), Article III clerkship data, SCOTUS clerkship placement data, faculty membership in the AAAS, U.S. News rankings (every year), assessment scores (every year), "Douchiest Law School" competition.

But see Brian Leiter's Scholarly Impact rating (tied).

Sure, Duke is close in almost every category--but almost the entire T14 is close in every category. If your position is to never differentiate within the T14, except for HYS, then sure, I'll agree with you.

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Bosque
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby Bosque » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:02 pm

showNprove wrote:
Bosque wrote:
showNprove wrote:You guys don't need to take playful jabbing so seriously (even though I do stand by my point that Michigan > Duke).


Lol, I find it quite hilarious that you are saying "Chill dudes, I was kidding" and "I am totally right, and because I just said chill dudes you can't say anything about it."

What an ass.

Somebody is pretty unnerved about his school's placement falling off a cliff.

I was teasing about Duke = GULC, but I maintain that Michigan > Duke. Not too hard to separate and say I was kidding about one.

You can say all you want about it. At this point, you don't have much of a leg to stand on. The whole "Duke is a peer to Michigan" thing is based solely off Duke's per capita placement numbers. Now you don't have that. If you want to keep talking about the fact that you don't have it, by all means, continue.


I was just pointing out the inanity of what you were saying. If you meant then what you mean now (that the comments were directed at two different things), great. But that's not what it sounded like.

Oh, and I am pretty sure our median numbers are above Michigan now. So yes, there is a leg to stand on. If you want to waste your time arguing about it, which frankly I don't. I like Michigan, I like Duke. They are both great schools. This is like arguing about different flavours of ice cream: they are all coming from the same shop, so just pick the one you like and shut up about it.

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Bosque
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby Bosque » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:03 pm

showNprove wrote: If your position is to never differentiate within the T14, except for HYS, then sure, I'll agree with you.


That's mine. What the hell are we arguing for then?

showNprove
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby showNprove » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:04 pm

Bosque wrote:I was just pointing out the inanity of what you were saying. If you meant then what you mean now (that the comments were directed at two different things), great. But that's not what it sounded like.

Oh, and I am pretty sure our median numbers are above Michigan now. So yes, there is a leg to stand on. If you want to waste your time arguing about it, which frankly I don't. I like Michigan, I like Duke. They are both great schools. This is like arguing about different flavours of ice cream: they are all coming from the same shop, so just pick the one you like and shut up about it.

That is what I meant.

I'll stop, too. I didn't intend to start a great debate--just to poke fun a little--but I tend to get pulled into these things. Duke is a great school, and all the Duke students/admits who have been fighting me should be proud you're there.

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Reedie
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby Reedie » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:11 pm

showNprove wrote:But see Brian Leiter's Scholarly Impact rating (tied).


Seriously, you are citing data that has Duke and Michigan tied to show that your pronouncements are true? For reals? Wow. Well done sir.

Anyway, back to the point. I think OP should visit schools and see what they like, compare total cost of attendance of QOL. If you want to look at the data, the NLJ numbers are fine to look at, though it's tough to know what they mean. Leiter has a bunch of other data which is also questionable but not useless. I wouldn't make my decision primarily based on that info though, as the differences are just too small to draw meaningful conclusions from. Enjoying your 3 years is important in itself, and will likely maximize your ability to do well.

The good news is that students here from both schools are generally pretty happy with their experience. After grades came out some Duke 1Ls, who were used to doing extremely well, didn't and got stressed about that. I'm pretty sure that happens everywhere. Good luck, and feel free to ask questions somewhere like the "hanging out on the internet" thread for more info on what students experience.

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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby showNprove » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:17 pm

Reedie wrote:
showNprove wrote:But see Brian Leiter's Scholarly Impact rating (tied).


Seriously, you are citing data that has Duke and Michigan tied to show that your pronouncements are true? For reals? Wow. Well done sir.

Aren't you a 1L? Shouldn't you know what the "but see" signal means?

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Reedie
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby Reedie » Sat Feb 26, 2011 5:26 pm

showNprove wrote:Aren't you a 1L? Shouldn't you know what the "but see" signal means?


I'm beginning to see how you get "pulled in" to these debates.

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Bosque
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby Bosque » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:14 pm

Reedie wrote:
showNprove wrote:Aren't you a 1L? Shouldn't you know what the "but see" signal means?


I'm beginning to see how you get "pulled in" to these debates.


Sorry to side with showNprove, but look up what the "but see" signal means. Then facepalm.

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Reedie
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby Reedie » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:46 pm

Bosque wrote:Sorry to side with showNprove, but look up what the "but see" signal means. Then facepalm.


I'm well aware of what "but see" means, one hardly needs to consult the bluebook to figure that out. "But see" would probable have been more appropriate if citing the info where Duke comes out ahead of Michigan (student quality from the same place). It just struck me as an especially silly and pedantically hostile way to reply.

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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby showNprove » Sat Feb 26, 2011 7:54 pm

Reedie wrote:Seriously, you are citing data that has Duke and Michigan tied to show that your pronouncements are true? For reals? Wow. Well done sir.

The "but see" signal is not used to support an argument. It's used in order to show evidence that contradicts what you are saying in order to be intellectually honest. If I'm saying that Michigan is better than Duke, then providing evidence that they are tied contradicts what I am saying.

But yes, I was trying to be a smart ass by citing evidence of a "tie" instead of evidence that Duke may be better than Michigan (e.g., the most recent class medians). If you couldn't tell I was joking around by doing so, I had hoped including the "Douchiest Law School" citation would have done the job.

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Reedie
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby Reedie » Sat Feb 26, 2011 8:04 pm

showNprove wrote:
Reedie wrote:Seriously, you are citing data that has Duke and Michigan tied to show that your pronouncements are true? For reals? Wow. Well done sir.

The "but see" signal is not used to support an argument. It's used in order to show evidence that contradicts what you are saying in order to be intellectually honest. If I'm saying that Michigan is better than Duke, then providing evidence that they are tied contradicts what I am saying.


Yes, I'm aware I didn't read what you wrote carefully enough. You win that point. I just thought the whole bluebook thing was a silly way to point that out.

showNprove wrote:But yes, I was trying to be a smart ass by citing evidence of a "tie" instead of evidence that Duke may be better than Michigan (e.g., the most recent class medians). If you couldn't tell I was joking around by doing so, I had hoped including the "Douchiest Law School" citation would have done the job.


I don't get the whole "I'm joking except for how I'm not joking" thing. I thought you were actually making your argument there. So, was the whole thing a joke? That would make sense in that the argument you provided wasn't at all convincing.

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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby showNprove » Sat Feb 26, 2011 9:09 pm

Reedie wrote:I don't get the whole "I'm joking except for how I'm not joking" thing. I thought you were actually making your argument there. So, was the whole thing a joke? That would make sense in that the argument you provided wasn't at all convincing.

Do I think that Michigan is a slightly better law school? Yes. Was I trying to make a serious argument that Michigan is in a whole other league than Duke? No, most of it was over-the-top prodding because Duke students were abundant in this thread.

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Bosque
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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby Bosque » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:01 pm

Reedie wrote:
showNprove wrote:But yes, I was trying to be a smart ass by citing evidence of a "tie" instead of evidence that Duke may be better than Michigan (e.g., the most recent class medians). If you couldn't tell I was joking around by doing so, I had hoped including the "Douchiest Law School" citation would have done the job.


I don't get the whole "I'm joking except for how I'm not joking" thing. I thought you were actually making your argument there. So, was the whole thing a joke? That would make sense in that the argument you provided wasn't at all convincing.


I'll agree, the "joking but I'm not joking" thing is a defense mechanism, so he can backpedal when he starts getting into the weeds. It may not be intentional, but it certainly makes him look like an ass. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but I also just might be a huge sucker.

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Re: Penn v. UCLA v. Duke v. Mich. v. USC (Updated w/Mich Schol.)

Postby showNprove » Sat Feb 26, 2011 11:47 pm

Bosque wrote:I'll agree, the "joking but I'm not joking" thing is a defense mechanism, so he can backpedal when he starts getting into the weeds. It may not be intentional, but it certainly makes him look like an ass. I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt, but I also just might be a huge sucker.

I should have just trolled unabashedly because this turned out to be a lot more pointless. My initial statements were intended to be hyperbolic and humorous (although apparently the Duke students, who seem to be the only other people reading this thread, didn't think so).

Do I think Michigan and Duke are "peers"? It depends what level of generality we are talking about. They are both elite schools, but I would almost never recommend Duke over Michigan at equal price. If you want to have a real discussion about the merits of my impressions, then we can have one (but considering I don't go to either school, it would be another waste of time for me).

Plus, Duke just lost to VA Tech. VA Tech Law > Duke Law.




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