what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

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flcath
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby flcath » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:19 am

lisjjen wrote:
flcath wrote:I have literally never met anyone going into more than about $60K in debt for ND. The schools in this range know how this works, and they give out mad $$$ to stay competitive. Even the kids paying sticker usually have parents who are paying for everything, which, by the way, it does NOT take rich parents to do.


I wish I had the kind of not rich parents you're thinking of.

Should've grown up in middle America, brah. A 6-figure income makes you upper-middle class, and you have no prob paying for 3 kids through grad school.

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fatduck
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby fatduck » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:20 am

flcath wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
flcath wrote:I have literally never met anyone going into more than about $60K in debt for ND. The schools in this range know how this works, and they give out mad $$$ to stay competitive. Even the kids paying sticker usually have parents who are paying for everything, which, by the way, it does NOT take rich parents to do.


I wish I had the kind of not rich parents you're thinking of.

Should've grown up in middle America, brah. A 6-figure income makes you upper-middle class, and you have no prob paying for 3 kids through grad school.


it helps if you have older parents as they're afraid of being put in the nursing home

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lisjjen
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby lisjjen » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:21 am

FiveSermon wrote:LOL@ 20-30 having good placement. It's more like T6 good placement T17 decent placement and everyone else left fighting for scraps.


Scraps is a farely relative term. USC puts 40% into biglaw while Fordham and GWU put in 30%.

Sure that's a minority of a graduating class, but have we been on TLS for so long that we forgot that there's a world outside of biglaw?

FiveSermon
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:21 am

lisjjen wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:LOL@ 20-30 having good placement. It's more like T6 good placement T17 decent placement and everyone else left fighting for scraps.


Scraps is a farely relative term. USC puts 40% into biglaw while Fordham and GWU put in 30%.

Sure that's a minority of a graduating class, but have we been on TLS for so long that we forgot that there's a world outside of biglaw?


Doc review?

wildcats2008
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby wildcats2008 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:22 am

"Sure that's a minority of a graduating class, but have we been on TLS for so long that we forgot that there's a world outside of biglaw?"

The question is do you want to live in that world? Only you can decide whether the biglaw bubble is worth it.

flcath
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby flcath » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:23 am

lisjjen wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:LOL@ 20-30 having good placement. It's more like T6 good placement T17 decent placement and everyone else left fighting for scraps.


Scraps is a farely relative term. USC puts 40% into biglaw while Fordham and GWU put in 30%.

Sure that's a minority of a graduating class, but have we been on TLS for so long that we forgot that there's a world outside of biglaw?

This is a founding tenet of TLS, so yes.

Also, if you are gonna go into 6-figure debt, you really probably should get either a 6-figure job or a PI gig.

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lisjjen
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby lisjjen » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:23 am

flcath wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
flcath wrote:I have literally never met anyone going into more than about $60K in debt for ND. The schools in this range know how this works, and they give out mad $$$ to stay competitive. Even the kids paying sticker usually have parents who are paying for everything, which, by the way, it does NOT take rich parents to do.


I wish I had the kind of not rich parents you're thinking of.

Should've grown up in middle America, brah. A 6-figure income makes you upper-middle class, and you have no prob paying for 3 kids through grad school.


Ummmmmm.... let me refer you to my friend who crossed the Mexico border with nothing but a plastic bag with a shirt in it. 6 figures ranges from $100,000 - $999,999. Putting three kids through grad school at sticker requires you to be closer to the 999 end of the spectrum.

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lisjjen
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby lisjjen » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:24 am

FiveSermon wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:LOL@ 20-30 having good placement. It's more like T6 good placement T17 decent placement and everyone else left fighting for scraps.


Scraps is a farely relative term. USC puts 40% into biglaw while Fordham and GWU put in 30%.

Sure that's a minority of a graduating class, but have we been on TLS for so long that we forgot that there's a world outside of biglaw?


Doc review?


http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

It's '09 numbers, but '10 isn't out yet.

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beachbum
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby beachbum » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:25 am

lisjjen wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:LOL@ 20-30 having good placement. It's more like T6 good placement T17 decent placement and everyone else left fighting for scraps.


Scraps is a farely relative term. USC puts 40% into biglaw while Fordham and GWU put in 30%.

Sure that's a minority of a graduating class, but have we been on TLS for so long that we forgot that there's a world outside of biglaw?


In all fairness, you're quoting placement stats from before ITE. I'm sure the numbers are far less now.

FiveSermon
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby FiveSermon » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:25 am

beachbum wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:LOL@ 20-30 having good placement. It's more like T6 good placement T17 decent placement and everyone else left fighting for scraps.


Scraps is a farely relative term. USC puts 40% into biglaw while Fordham and GWU put in 30%.

Sure that's a minority of a graduating class, but have we been on TLS for so long that we forgot that there's a world outside of biglaw?


In all fairness, you're quoting placement stats from before ITE. I'm sure the numbers are far less now.


Isn't 09 ITE?

flcath
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby flcath » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:26 am

lisjjen wrote:
flcath wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
flcath wrote:I have literally never met anyone going into more than about $60K in debt for ND. The schools in this range know how this works, and they give out mad $$$ to stay competitive. Even the kids paying sticker usually have parents who are paying for everything, which, by the way, it does NOT take rich parents to do.


I wish I had the kind of not rich parents you're thinking of.

Should've grown up in middle America, brah. A 6-figure income makes you upper-middle class, and you have no prob paying for 3 kids through grad school.


Ummmmmm.... let me refer you to my friend who crossed the Mexico border with nothing but a plastic bag with a shirt in it. 6 figures ranges from $100,000 - $999,999. Putting three kids through grad school at sticker requires you to be closer to the 999 end of the spectrum.

2 quite separate ideas, brother. #1 asks for greater perspective--aren't we lucky and entitled here in the US?--and I'm all for it!

Idea #2 (you have to make >$500K to put 3 kids through grad school) is a lie, or just mistaken.

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lisjjen
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby lisjjen » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:27 am

beachbum wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:LOL@ 20-30 having good placement. It's more like T6 good placement T17 decent placement and everyone else left fighting for scraps.


Scraps is a farely relative term. USC puts 40% into biglaw while Fordham and GWU put in 30%.

Sure that's a minority of a graduating class, but have we been on TLS for so long that we forgot that there's a world outside of biglaw?


In all fairness, you're quoting placement stats from before ITE. I'm sure the numbers are far less now.


The term "ITE" gets abused worse than Rihanna. To be clear, the recession started in December 2007. I cited 2009. It's not like I was citing 2002's numbers.

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DeeCee
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby DeeCee » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:27 am

I need a friend that can finish putting me through grad school.......

not that kind of friend though

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lisjjen
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby lisjjen » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:29 am

flcath wrote:Idea #2 (you have to make >$500K to put 3 kids through grad school) is a lie, or just mistaken.


In what universe are you living? No. Really? I want to go there.

Sticker at good grad schools (med, mba, jd, phd, etc.) is 50-70k/yr.

Multiply times three and you're looking at 150-200k a year for three years. That requires a hell of a lot of disposable income.

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fatduck
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby fatduck » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:30 am

lisjjen wrote:
flcath wrote:Idea #2 (you have to make >$500K to put 3 kids through grad school) is a lie, or just mistaken.


In what universe are you living? No. Really? I want to go there.

Sticker at good grad schools (med, mba, jd, phd, etc.) is 50-70k/yr.

Multiply times three and you're looking at 150-200k a year for three years. That requires a hell of a lot of disposable income.


i don't think he's talking about straight cash homey

he means payin' yo loans

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rman1201
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby rman1201 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:31 am

lisjjen wrote:
flcath wrote:Idea #2 (you have to make >$500K to put 3 kids through grad school) is a lie, or just mistaken.


In what universe are you living? No. Really? I want to go there.

Sticker at good grad schools (med, mba, jd, phd, etc.) is 50-70k/yr.

Multiply times three and you're looking at 150-200k a year for three years. That requires a hell of a lot of disposable income.


In all fairness, most PhD programs waive tuition and provide a stipend if you agree to TA/RA

flcath
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby flcath » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:32 am

lisjjen wrote:
beachbum wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:LOL@ 20-30 having good placement. It's more like T6 good placement T17 decent placement and everyone else left fighting for scraps.


Scraps is a farely relative term. USC puts 40% into biglaw while Fordham and GWU put in 30%.

Sure that's a minority of a graduating class, but have we been on TLS for so long that we forgot that there's a world outside of biglaw?


In all fairness, you're quoting placement stats from before ITE. I'm sure the numbers are far less now.


The term "ITE" gets abused worse than Rihanna. To be clear, the recession started in December 2007. I cited 2009. It's not like I was citing 2002's numbers.

Lulz.

2009 data isn't optimally reliable due to the lag b/t OCI and graduation, but you know that. Basically, TLS would like you to ignore what data does exist in favor of anonymous internet speculation... said speculation is useful when highly specific (SA class compositions) but worthless when generalized (school x probably placed like <3% into Biglaw, even though the 2009 #s indicate 30% + 10% clerkships).

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lisjjen
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby lisjjen » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:33 am

rman1201 wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
flcath wrote:Idea #2 (you have to make >$500K to put 3 kids through grad school) is a lie, or just mistaken.


In what universe are you living? No. Really? I want to go there.

Sticker at good grad schools (med, mba, jd, phd, etc.) is 50-70k/yr.

Multiply times three and you're looking at 150-200k a year for three years. That requires a hell of a lot of disposable income.


In all fairness, most PhD programs waive tuition and provide a stipend if you agree to TA/RA


Not all of them do, but I've been told by a number of professors that you're an idiot if you take on a single loan to get your PhD. But we're talking theoretically now.
Last edited by lisjjen on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.

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lisjjen
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby lisjjen » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:34 am

flcath wrote: 2009 data isn't optimally reliable due to the lag b/t OCI and graduation, but you know that. Basically, TLS would like you to ignore what data does exist in favor of anonymous internet speculation... said speculation is useful when highly specific (SA class compositions) but worthless when generalized (school x probably placed like <3% into Biglaw, even though the 2009 #s indicate 30% + 10% clerkships).


There is a lag. And I do know that. Do you know you just called the National Law Journal "anonymous internet speculation?"

flcath
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby flcath » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:35 am

fatduck wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
flcath wrote:Idea #2 (you have to make >$500K to put 3 kids through grad school) is a lie, or just mistaken.


In what universe are you living? No. Really? I want to go there.

Sticker at good grad schools (med, mba, jd, phd, etc.) is 50-70k/yr.

Multiply times three and you're looking at 150-200k a year for three years. That requires a hell of a lot of disposable income.


i don't think he's talking about straight cash homey

he means payin' yo loans

Yes. Bear in mind as well that we don't all have triplets. If your kids are spaced out by a couple years, it's more manageable.

This is something that I've observed all around me first-hand, so I personally have nothing to learn from this debate. It's sort of the reward we get for growing up in Tennessee vice somewhere good.

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fatduck
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby fatduck » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:35 am

lisjjen wrote:
flcath wrote: 2009 data isn't optimally reliable due to the lag b/t OCI and graduation, but you know that. Basically, TLS would like you to ignore what data does exist in favor of anonymous internet speculation... said speculation is useful when highly specific (SA class compositions) but worthless when generalized (school x probably placed like <3% into Biglaw, even though the 2009 #s indicate 30% + 10% clerkships).


There is a lag. And I do know that. Do you know you just called the National Law Journal "anonymous internet speculation?"


he's actually making the same argument that you are, fyi.

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lisjjen
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby lisjjen » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:36 am

fatduck wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
flcath wrote: 2009 data isn't optimally reliable due to the lag b/t OCI and graduation, but you know that. Basically, TLS would like you to ignore what data does exist in favor of anonymous internet speculation... said speculation is useful when highly specific (SA class compositions) but worthless when generalized (school x probably placed like <3% into Biglaw, even though the 2009 #s indicate 30% + 10% clerkships).


There is a lag. And I do know that. Do you know you just called the National Law Journal "anonymous internet speculation?"


he's actually making the same argument that you are, fyi.


The frivolous arguments that I start up on TLS between studying often chase their own tails.

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rman1201
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby rman1201 » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:39 am

Has anyone ever noticed the major gender differences on TLS? Pretty much every argument on here is 100% male, the women are pretty chill.

flcath
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby flcath » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:40 am

lisjjen wrote:
flcath wrote: 2009 data isn't optimally reliable due to the lag b/t OCI and graduation, but you know that. Basically, TLS would like you to ignore what data does exist in favor of anonymous internet speculation... said speculation is useful when highly specific (SA class compositions) but worthless when generalized (school x probably placed like <3% into Biglaw, even though the 2009 #s indicate 30% + 10% clerkships).


There is a lag. And I do know that. Do you know you just called the National Law Journal "anonymous internet speculation?"


1) You present data, showing school 'x' placed 24% in 2009.
2) TLS posters point out that the lag makes these #s inflated. They are probably right here.
3) TLS posters, heady from their victory in step 2, go one step further and speculate that school x "is probably placing less than 10% (this seems to be the popular number) of the class in Biglaw" now.

I was agreeing w/ you, dawg. Your numbers are inflated, but their's are just made up.

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Veyron
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Re: what's up with this "big law or bust" idea?

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:40 am

theturkeyisfat wrote:many, many posts advice people to go to the highest ranked school that they are accepted to at sticker if they're "big law or bust," even if these schools only offer mediocre "big law" prospects and the people seeking advice have good scholarships from lower-ranked schools. this wording dismisses the consequences of living the "bust" scenario, though (where you can't pay off stifling debt).

ridiculous.

i just felt like venting.


Well dude, there is a federal hiring freeze, state gov hiring is shot to shit, small and midsized firms barely hiring anyone these days. Biglaw is the only game in town.

Now, if you want to do PI, thats cool, but its just as competitve as biglaw so its better to go to a T-14, because even up to sticker, LRAP should make your debt managable.
Last edited by Veyron on Tue Feb 22, 2011 1:41 am, edited 1 time in total.




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