LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

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hungryjack
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LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby hungryjack » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:21 am

hey everyone. i was accepted into loyola and would like to attend, but i have some concerns regarding employment prospects from this school. i have half tuition scholarship, w/ stipulation. putting that aside, i fortunately come from a wealthy family and i will have no loans when graduating law school...even if i do not meet the stipulations. (i am not trying to sound arrogant, sorry). my question, i want to practice in chicago but i keep on hearing that chicago market is really bad and that loyola doesn't seem to promising. of course, if i graduate at the top of the class, say 5-10% im sure i could secure a $100k+ job, but reality is that i probably wont. i would be comfortable earning 70-90k post law school, but i too have a feeling that this is harder said than done. how bad is it for loyola grads right now? or in the coming years?

i have been looking at their fact sheet and something just does not make sense. i found this post http://T14 Paradise.blogspot.com/20 ... icago.html, Anonymous said... "something just doesn't add up regarding loyola's employment statistics. for example, if you review their fact sheet, they show that the median salary is $100k (which i believe is a lie) and that the overall range is 38-160k. I can believe that there are a handful of students (~15-30..roughly 5-10%) that make it into top law firms that pay $100k+ salaries. However, how can the median be that high? They show on their fact sheet (--LinkRemoved--) that ~40% took private firm jobs at firms w/ 50 or more attorneys. Typically these kinds of firms pay attorneys very well, typically over $100k. But none of this adds up. If you review Loyola's NALP stat sheet via (http://www.nalpdirectory.com/) you see that there are only 13 law firms in chicago recruiting at Loyola. In addition, if you check each of these individual law firms, they publish how many summer associates they had for last year, how many associates they hired, and what schools they recruit from. Each of these firms recruit heavily from top law schools and if you notice many recruited very few if none at all summer associates. To me, loyola publishes a lot of bullsh*t...nothing seems to add up. IMO, i think most graduates whom receive a job are making somewhere in the $60-70k range, at best."


is this true? i have a feeling too that loyola's stats aren't necessarily true or that they are kind of loaded. is it safe to assume most make 60-70k?

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BarbellDreams
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby BarbellDreams » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:24 am

Chicago is a horrid market and LUC grads are fighting for 40k jobs right now. Outside of the top 10% it is a bloodbath. There are generally better options, especially if money isnt a problem for you.

hungryjack
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby hungryjack » Mon Feb 21, 2011 11:33 am

BarbellDreams wrote:Chicago is a horrid market and LUC grads are fighting for 40k jobs right now. Outside of the top 10% it is a bloodbath. There are generally better options, especially if money isnt a problem for you.


what do you mean better options? sorry for all the questions, i just want to make sure i am making the right decision. also, i heard from a family friend that loyola grads (and others i assume) are having struggling to find summer associate jobs in firms..is this true? i was under the impression that you need this to get hired when graduating.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby BarbellDreams » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:04 pm

Yes, it is very difficult to land a Firm SA gig from a tier 2 school in a rough market. When I said better options I meant other schools you can get into that do better in their market. Do you absolutely want to be in Chicago no matter what?

hungryjack
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby hungryjack » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:09 pm

yes, i really want to be in chicago..however ill be honest, im not the best student out there. i was able to get into kent, depaul and loyola but no other really good schools. i just keep on hearing these horror stories about graduates from loyola, kent, etc. i even read an article about the kent editor in chief not getting a job. everyone tells me by the time i graduate everything will be fine, but recent articles have said that the legal market is shrinking in jobs. i guess i just dont know what to believe anymore.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby BarbellDreams » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:22 pm

Things will NOT get better by the time you graduate. Just bank on that. If money is truly not a problem at all and you are lucky enough to have your parents pay for everything I would go with LUC over DePaul and Kent.

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lolschool2011
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby lolschool2011 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:36 pm

hungryjack wrote:yes, i really want to be in chicago..however ill be honest, im not the best student out there. i was able to get into kent, depaul and loyola but no other really good schools. i just keep on hearing these horror stories about graduates from loyola, kent, etc. i even read an article about the kent editor in chief not getting a job. everyone tells me by the time i graduate everything will be fine, but recent articles have said that the legal market is shrinking in jobs. i guess i just dont know what to believe anymore.


If your family is so wealthy, why don't you just get your JD, then manage the family trust upon graduation. Also, you should look into securing various securities licenses (series 7, etc) to handle family investments as well.

hungryjack
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby hungryjack » Mon Feb 21, 2011 12:51 pm

i mean im not super wealthy, my parents are doctors and we live a comfortable life. i didnt like medicine so i never pursued it. they have been successful so hence why they could afford my school, i have been very grateful of that. its just that when i graduate, i am going to be on my own and would like to make a comfortable living. 60k+ would be good for me to start, but not sure if thats realistic. i looked at the NALP directory, hardly any firms come to LUC

Philosopher1
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby Philosopher1 » Thu Feb 24, 2011 10:45 pm

So earlier I did some of the Kent v. Loyola things.

But, of course, the economy is horrid. I have confidence I can finish in the top 10% of any school I go to ... but you never know, and it is easier said than done. My testing isn't bad, but for my entire life, my grades have always outshined my testing.

So, would you say that going to U Miami and ending up down there for your first job after taking the FL bar (and I know it would be a hard trek back up to Chicago because FL doesn't have reciprocity) ... would that be advisable as opposed to Kent or Loyola-Chicago? Doing the best you can in Miami, doing everything right ... and would it be easier to land a nice job there than going to one of the mentioned Chicago schools and trying to get a job in Chicago? That's the only law school of that city. There's of course UF, a few other southern schools, T-14s to anywhere, etc. But seemingly way less competition than Chicago's market.

My grandparents live down there during the non summer months, my parents want to retire down there, etc. Just a thought. Saying that, what actually gives me the better shot: Miami, or Kent - Loyola? I actually prefer Chicago, but I do enjoy Miami, as well.

(Or going for Chicago jobs coming out of Miami??) Thx all!

EgyptianPresident
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby EgyptianPresident » Thu Feb 24, 2011 11:12 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:Chicago is a horrid market and LUC grads are fighting for 40k jobs right now. Outside of the top 10% it is a bloodbath. There are generally better options, especially if money isnt a problem for you.

Unless you are a Chicago lawyer how do you know this?

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ColtMcCoy
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby ColtMcCoy » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:50 am

EgyptianPresident wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Chicago is a horrid market and LUC grads are fighting for 40k jobs right now. Outside of the top 10% it is a bloodbath. There are generally better options, especially if money isnt a problem for you.


Unless you are a Chicago lawyer how do you know this?


People just like to post pessimistic things on the forums to bring people down. My friend just graduated from DePaul and he got a job instantly in Chicago making over 80k a year. His firm also consists of ~50% DePaul grads and ~30% Loyola grads. The market is bad for people who don't know how to network well or finished out of the top 50% of their class. If you go to Loyola, network, and do well you'll get a good job.

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jcunni5
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby jcunni5 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:08 am

What's your undergrad degree in? Can you go to business school instead? Listen, people i know coming out of Chicago T2's don't seem to be doing well. I would try to go to a school that is more dominant in its market if you are flexible like a Colorado school or something. it's just the legal market is pure shit right and you will be competing not only against your classmates for the same Chicago jobs but depaul, kent, john marshall, ND, WUSTL, u of i, NU, U CHI, even marquette, and u iowa kids. when you think about the bad economy and the competition it's really not a great idea to go to a Chi T2 right now.

edit: I go to a T14 and have strong Chicago ties but i'm looking to NYC to save my ass b/c i really don't think anyone can bank on chicago right now especially for firm jobs

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lolschool2011
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby lolschool2011 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 4:00 am

ColtMcCoy wrote:
EgyptianPresident wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Chicago is a horrid market and LUC grads are fighting for 40k jobs right now. Outside of the top 10% it is a bloodbath. There are generally better options, especially if money isnt a problem for you.


Unless you are a Chicago lawyer how do you know this?


People just like to post pessimistic things on the forums to bring people down. My friend just graduated from DePaul and he got a job instantly in Chicago making over 80k a year. His firm also consists of ~50% DePaul grads and ~30% Loyola grads. The market is bad for people who don't know how to network well or finished out of the top 50% of their class. If you go to Loyola, network, and do well you'll get a good job.


+1 I have similiar examples in my circle of friends...

hungryjack
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby hungryjack » Sun Feb 27, 2011 12:23 pm

my undergraduate degree is in philosophy. i saw the recent NLJ250 stats and it looks like loyola dropped by ~5% in terms of placement in top 250 firms. would this trend be reflective in small firm employment as well? i spoke with a family friend yesterday who graduated uiuc law and said to avoid loyola....and depaul and kent. and people on this forum post that loyola is pretty good. im getting mixed impressions about the program. does anyone have any reliable statistics as to the median starting salary of loyola grads? loyola's fact sheets claims it to be $100k, i am somewhat skeptical of this

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jcunni5
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby jcunni5 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 2:23 pm

hungryjack wrote:my undergraduate degree is in philosophy. i saw the recent NLJ250 stats and it looks like loyola dropped by ~5% in terms of placement in top 250 firms. would this trend be reflective in small firm employment as well? i spoke with a family friend yesterday who graduated uiuc law and said to avoid loyola....and depaul and kent. and people on this forum post that loyola is pretty good. im getting mixed impressions about the program. does anyone have any reliable statistics as to the median starting salary of loyola grads? loyola's fact sheets claims it to be $100k, i am somewhat skeptical of this


the thing with the drop in big law placement does affect the small firm placement b/c now you have more people competing for those jobs. if you look at LUC's employment data for the median salary you'll notice that only 53% of students are reporting meaning the people that reported were probably the ones with the best jobs and inflated the numbers. and remember median is deceiving : 30k, 30k, 40k, 160k, 160k, 160k = a 100k median. i'm not trying to hate on LUC i think its a fine school, but it will be difficult to secure the kind of job you want from there ITE

employment stats: --LinkRemoved--

hungryjack
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby hungryjack » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:15 pm

jcunni5 wrote:
hungryjack wrote:my undergraduate degree is in philosophy. i saw the recent NLJ250 stats and it looks like loyola dropped by ~5% in terms of placement in top 250 firms. would this trend be reflective in small firm employment as well? i spoke with a family friend yesterday who graduated uiuc law and said to avoid loyola....and depaul and kent. and people on this forum post that loyola is pretty good. im getting mixed impressions about the program. does anyone have any reliable statistics as to the median starting salary of loyola grads? loyola's fact sheets claims it to be $100k, i am somewhat skeptical of this


the thing with the drop in big law placement does affect the small firm placement b/c now you have more people competing for those jobs. if you look at LUC's employment data for the median salary you'll notice that only 53% of students are reporting meaning the people that reported were probably the ones with the best jobs and inflated the numbers. and remember median is deceiving : 30k, 30k, 40k, 160k, 160k, 160k = a 100k median. i'm not trying to hate on LUC i think its a fine school, but it will be difficult to secure the kind of job you want from there ITE

employment stats: --LinkRemoved--


i agree, thats what i am concerned about. i loved loyola when i toured it, but those figures scare me. in addition, those are class of 2009..i assume that OCI was good for that class since they would be interviewing in 2007 and 2008 for SA. is that a correct assessment?

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BarbellDreams
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:41 pm

ColtMcCoy wrote:
EgyptianPresident wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Chicago is a horrid market and LUC grads are fighting for 40k jobs right now. Outside of the top 10% it is a bloodbath. There are generally better options, especially if money isnt a problem for you.


Unless you are a Chicago lawyer how do you know this?


People just like to post pessimistic things on the forums to bring people down. My friend just graduated from DePaul and he got a job instantly in Chicago making over 80k a year. His firm also consists of ~50% DePaul grads and ~30% Loyola grads. The market is bad for people who don't know how to network well or finished out of the top 50% of their class. If you go to Loyola, network, and do well you'll get a good job.


Any senior poster who is a current law student will heavily disagree with you. Its funny to me how 0L's on here think they know the market better than current law students because they either A.) Have heard of some story from someone succeeding or B.) Know an anomaly. Look at some of the other LUC/DePaul/Kent threads, there are current LAW RECRUITERS in those threads telling you to not go to these schools because people outside top 10% are fighting for doc review jobs. You don't need to believe me, just bookmark this thread and come back after your 2L OCI.

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jcunni5
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby jcunni5 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 3:52 pm

hungryjack wrote:
jcunni5 wrote:
hungryjack wrote:my undergraduate degree is in philosophy. i saw the recent NLJ250 stats and it looks like loyola dropped by ~5% in terms of placement in top 250 firms. would this trend be reflective in small firm employment as well? i spoke with a family friend yesterday who graduated uiuc law and said to avoid loyola....and depaul and kent. and people on this forum post that loyola is pretty good. im getting mixed impressions about the program. does anyone have any reliable statistics as to the median starting salary of loyola grads? loyola's fact sheets claims it to be $100k, i am somewhat skeptical of this


the thing with the drop in big law placement does affect the small firm placement b/c now you have more people competing for those jobs. if you look at LUC's employment data for the median salary you'll notice that only 53% of students are reporting meaning the people that reported were probably the ones with the best jobs and inflated the numbers. and remember median is deceiving : 30k, 30k, 40k, 160k, 160k, 160k = a 100k median. i'm not trying to hate on LUC i think its a fine school, but it will be difficult to secure the kind of job you want from there ITE

employment stats: --LinkRemoved--


i agree, thats what i am concerned about. i loved loyola when i toured it, but those figures scare me. in addition, those are class of 2009..i assume that OCI was good for that class since they would be interviewing in 2007 and 2008 for SA. is that a correct assessment?


Yes OCI was good for c/o 2009 but they got no offered so it's still shows some of the effects of the economy.... the general conscenus is that c/o 2011 will be the first sign of placement ITE. obviously, c/o 13,14 will have better placement than 11 but the problem is that all of the summer associate classes of the bigger were basically cut in half and some of the smaller firms cancelled them all together (or do hire less regularly), so c/o 13,14,etc will not be in anyway like boom times

EgyptianPresident
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby EgyptianPresident » Sun Feb 27, 2011 6:32 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:
ColtMcCoy wrote:
EgyptianPresident wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:Chicago is a horrid market and LUC grads are fighting for 40k jobs right now. Outside of the top 10% it is a bloodbath. There are generally better options, especially if money isnt a problem for you.


Unless you are a Chicago lawyer how do you know this?


People just like to post pessimistic things on the forums to bring people down. My friend just graduated from DePaul and he got a job instantly in Chicago making over 80k a year. His firm also consists of ~50% DePaul grads and ~30% Loyola grads. The market is bad for people who don't know how to network well or finished out of the top 50% of their class. If you go to Loyola, network, and do well you'll get a good job.


Any senior poster who is a current law student will heavily disagree with you. Its funny to me how 0L's on here think they know the market better than current law students because they either A.) Have heard of some story from someone succeeding or B.) Know an anomaly. Look at some of the other LUC/DePaul/Kent threads, there are current LAW RECRUITERS in those threads telling you to not go to these schools because people outside top 10% are fighting for doc review jobs. You don't need to believe me, just bookmark this thread and come back after your 2L OCI.


You are a moron, I'm a current law student (at neither of the three middle/bottom of the road Chi law schools) who worked in a Chicago law firm for almost a year before law school. I am basing my knowledge on actually having worked in the city. The current job market in Chicago is awful, doesn't matter if you have a JD, MBA, GED, or whatever, law isn't any different. Yet if you want to be a lawyer bad enough and Chicago is where you want to live and you didn't do well enough to get into NW or UChi, there aren't many other options. There are tons of grads from all three of those schools all over the city and networking can do wonders. You are some scumbag know-it-all 1L law student who is giving people advice on something you have never been part of (nor will ever be a part of). If you aren't at Harvard or Yale I don't see why you would be acting like such a pretentious prick in the first place.

hungryjack
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby hungryjack » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:09 pm

i dont think he was bashing on the schools, just pointing out a reality. i saw a similar post. i am sure that there are opportunities with networking, but i am concerned about the median placement of loyola grads. i think this thread may have gotten a little side tracked. i am just asking around to see what others thing about loyola placement options since i myself think that the data they publish is a bit misleading. thats it. no need for hostility

EgyptianPresident
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby EgyptianPresident » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:28 pm

the reality is this (from someone who worked at a real estate firm in Chicago). its tough everywhere, but if you want to be a lawyer and be in chicago, getting a job isn't as difficult is advertised if you are dedicated enough.

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ChiCity22
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby ChiCity22 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 7:38 pm

I know one current 3L at Loyola that I believe is around median who got a small firm job paying in the 60k range through networking, it seems like these oppurtunities are available for Depaul / Kent / Loyola students outside of the top 10%. The posters stating that a majority of the class is doing document review are exagerating to say the least. Depaul and Loyola have huge networks in the city that are beneficial to getting jobs. Now going to these schools at sticket is a different story.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:11 pm

EgyptianPresident wrote:
You are a moron, I'm a current law student (at neither of the three middle/bottom of the road Chi law schools) who worked in a Chicago law firm for almost a year before law school. I am basing my knowledge on actually having worked in the city. The current job market in Chicago is awful, doesn't matter if you have a JD, MBA, GED, or whatever, law isn't any different. Yet if you want to be a lawyer bad enough and Chicago is where you want to live and you didn't do well enough to get into NW or UChi, there aren't many other options. There are tons of grads from all three of those schools all over the city and networking can do wonders. You are some scumbag know-it-all 1L law student who is giving people advice on something you have never been part of (nor will ever be a part of). If you aren't at Harvard or Yale I don't see why you would be acting like such a pretentious prick in the first place.


This actually made me laugh out loud. Essentially ALL employment statistics go directly against you. Also, legal recruiters in Chicago are strongly discouraging attendance to these schools because of the market as described in this thread: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=137561&p=3939332&hilit=kent+recruiter#p3939332. Finally, every single senior poster who actually knows whats going on will tell you that you are wrong (Don't believe me? Start a topic about employment coming out of these schools and see what the responses are like, or just use the search function and find out). Oh, and you don't go to a Chicago school: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=148138&start=50, so therefore you can't really give first hand knowledge of anything in that market.

As for the bolded part, I actually did my undergrad studies at Loyola as well as having lived 16 years of my life there. I have a decent amount of legal connections there, though only one biglaw associate admittedly. I have been a "part" of that city and that market much more than you ever have and since you demonstrated minimal knowledge about employment statistics in Chicago instead opting to simply go with the "If you want it bad enough and network like crazy you'll get a good job" route you have essentially nothing to back up your argument but empty insults and chest-pounding. Good luck with those types of arguments upon graduation, you'll need them.

Now that I am finished tearing your empty argument apart I wish you a good day. Next time, try and at least pretend to do some research.

EgyptianPresident
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby EgyptianPresident » Sun Feb 27, 2011 10:54 pm

"Senior poster" citing posts from other 1Ls on a pre-law school forum vs. someone who has worked in the market. And equating advice on a law school forum to arguing ability is rich, you really are a winner. Continue to give people advice on things you know nothing about. Does living in Chicago also make you an expert on the Cubs? How about deep dish pizza? Maybe I should move to China so I could learn Mandarin and open a restaurant. Living in Chicago doesn't mean you know squat about the legal market, and knowing 1 lawyer in Chicago doesn't qualify as "connections."

Listen to me, its hard but not impossible to get a job out these schools, just like any other walk of life, you have to try hard and put yourself out there and it will at least pay off in some manner. Not being in the top 10% isn't going to put you in a dumpster sucking dick for crack if you work hard enough.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: LOYOLA CHICAGO - QUESTION

Postby BarbellDreams » Sun Feb 27, 2011 11:09 pm

Once again your argument revolves around name calling and petty insults. You have yet to provide ANY stats or contradict any of my arguments. Good luck with this argument style post-grad, it should do wonders for you. I mentioned I only know 1 biglaw attorney, I also know multiple midlaw attorneys and a decent amount of PI/small law attorneys in the market. Thats all irrelevant to this argument as employment stats and the words of legal recruiters are all that matter. Ironically you have yet to put up any sort of fight against either of these arguments. You're comical, but the sad reality is YOU are the reason people on this board take out 6 figures for T2,TTT and TTTT schools because they come here for realistic advice and you fill their heads with this whole "You can be at median but if you REALLY want to be a lawyer and network a lot you can get a good 60-80k job in the second worst legal market in the US". Stats don't lie. Also, I'd heavily consider taking some sort of rhetoric classes before leaving law school, your current argument style which revolves around personal insults won't fly in a courtroom.




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