Tuition - How much is too much?

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JazzOne
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby JazzOne » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:38 am

LoyalRebel wrote:It's amazing how immature some of you people are.

+1

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Grizz
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby Grizz » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:38 am

LoyalRebel wrote:
AboveTheLawSchool wrote:OP why are you assuming a higher LSAT is unrealistic? You said yourself you didn't study for it. The LSAT is not like the ACT in that studying doesn't matter.

Also, what if you are wrong about being in the top 10% How ****ed will you be then?


The idea here is to create a niche. Accounting undergrad, full time tax accounting internship, pretty full resume (honors, tutoring jobs, loads of work experience, etc), probably some good legal internships with tax attorneys, and maybe some more tax work while I'm in school.

As far as grades, I'm in the top 10% of competitive undergrad program (by national standards, even). Maybe not top 10% (but maybe so, who knows), but I don't think top 20-25% is unrealistic.


Now take a whole bunch of people who are as smart as you and put them all together. There's your law school class. Also, make them learn something that is unlike anything you've ever learned before. You may be a savant and know how to take law exams better than anyone, or you may be incredibly shitty at it. Statistics says you will be around the middle.

Also tax isn't really an undiscovered or underserved niche, bro.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:39 am

rad law wrote:Also tax isn't really an undiscovered or underserved niche, bro.

LoyalRebel
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby LoyalRebel » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:42 am

romothesavior wrote:
AboveTheLawSchool wrote:
LoyalRebel wrote:It's amazing how immature some of you people are.


Honestly, everyone here is trying to help.

+1. OP, we want to help. It is just hard to help someone who assumes they will be top 10% and says things like this:

I am going to law school so I can obtain a JD and be licensed to practice law. I fully anticipate being very successful because I am intelligent, very hard working, and I know how to make it on my own. Just because I probably won't be hired by some mega firm in a highrise in New York doesn't mean I can't be successful. I have confidence in my ability and I don't 200k in loans to tell me I can do this.


You need to talk to some people who are actually in law school, learn a little about the job market and the difficulty of doing really well in law school, and fully understand the risks and stresses of law school. And definitely re-take, because going into a lot of debt for the schools you just mentioned is a recipe for financial disaster.

Good luck.


Um what does that post I made in that other thread have to do with any thing? I stand by that statement.

For your information, the Ole Miss was recommended to me by a very successful practicing attorney. All you've got at this point is 1000 posts on a law school forum acting like a douche bag.

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Grizz
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby Grizz » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:43 am

LoyalRebel wrote:For your information, the Ole Miss was recommended to me by a very successful practicing attorney. All you've got at this point is 1000 posts on a law school forum acting like a douche bag.


Most practicing attorneys have no idea how hard it is for new grads, unless they are directly involved in the hiring process.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:44 am

LoyalRebel wrote:For your information, the Ole Miss was recommended to me by a very successful practicing attorney.


Nova Southeastern was recommended to me by an associate administrative judge in Miami. You sure you got a 157?

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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby LoyalRebel » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:46 am

rad law wrote:
LoyalRebel wrote:For your information, the Ole Miss was recommended to me by a very successful practicing attorney. All you've got at this point is 1000 posts on a law school forum acting like a douche bag.


Most practicing attorneys have no idea how hard it is for new grads, unless they are directly involved in the hiring process.


Which he is.

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romothesavior
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby romothesavior » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:47 am

Not 1,000, more like 10,000. But who's counting?

Anyways, you just illustrated a perfect point... you need to learn about the current legal economy. I don't doubt that you talked to a successful attorney, and I don't doubt that he means well, but things are so radically different now. The legal market is almost unrecognizable from what it was 20-30 years ago. There are far more schools and students, and far fewer jobs. You need to talk to some younger attorneys and law students to get an idea of what things are really like.

Also, have you fully thought about and internalized what kind of debt you'll be taking on? You say you don't want biglaw, but that most likely leaves you with a 40-60k/year job. That all sounds fine and dandy (which it is), but do you know how hard it will be to pay off 180k+ with interest on a $45,000 a year starting salary?

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General Tso
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby General Tso » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:47 am

Ole Miss accounting is so much more widely respected than Ole Miss law. If I were you, I'd get my master's there and take that 65k starting salary to the bank.

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Grizz
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby Grizz » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:49 am

romothesavior wrote:You need to talk to some younger attorneys and law students to get an idea of what things are really like.


This.

The best information you can get about "in this economy" hiring is from '09 and '10 grads and current law students, aka the people who are actually looking for job.

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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby LoyalRebel » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:50 am

romothesavior wrote:Not 1,000, more like 10,000. But who's counting?

Anyways, you just illustrated a perfect point... you need to learn about the current legal economy. I don't doubt that you talked to a successful attorney, and I don't doubt that he means well, but things are so radically different now. The legal market is almost unrecognizable from what it was 20-30 years ago. There are far more schools and students, and far fewer jobs. You need to talk to some younger attorneys and law students to get an idea of what things are really like.

Also, have you fully thought about and internalized what kind of debt you'll be taking on? You say you don't want biglaw, but that most likely leaves you with a 40-60k/year job. That all sounds fine and dandy (which it is), but do you know how hard it will be to pay off 180k+ with interest on a $45,000 a year starting salary?


See, this is how I know a lot of people ignore the entire purpose of the thread in favor of talking down to others about LSAT scores.

The whole point of the thread is whether I should get the 150k debt from SMU, or just take 35k from Ole Miss. But this is the closest you've come to answering the original question and you didn't even mean to.

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fatduck
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby fatduck » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:51 am

LoyalRebel wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Not 1,000, more like 10,000. But who's counting?

Anyways, you just illustrated a perfect point... you need to learn about the current legal economy. I don't doubt that you talked to a successful attorney, and I don't doubt that he means well, but things are so radically different now. The legal market is almost unrecognizable from what it was 20-30 years ago. There are far more schools and students, and far fewer jobs. You need to talk to some younger attorneys and law students to get an idea of what things are really like.

Also, have you fully thought about and internalized what kind of debt you'll be taking on? You say you don't want biglaw, but that most likely leaves you with a 40-60k/year job. That all sounds fine and dandy (which it is), but do you know how hard it will be to pay off 180k+ with interest on a $45,000 a year starting salary?


See, this is how I know a lot of people ignore the entire purpose of the thread in favor of talking down to others about LSAT scores.

The whole point of the thread is whether I should get the 150k debt from SMU, or just take 35k from Ole Miss. But this is the closest you've come to answering the original question and you didn't even mean to.


You should take 150k debt from SMU, unless you can get in somewhere more expensive, in which case you should go there.

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JazzOne
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby JazzOne » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:54 am

fatduck wrote:
LoyalRebel wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Not 1,000, more like 10,000. But who's counting?

Anyways, you just illustrated a perfect point... you need to learn about the current legal economy. I don't doubt that you talked to a successful attorney, and I don't doubt that he means well, but things are so radically different now. The legal market is almost unrecognizable from what it was 20-30 years ago. There are far more schools and students, and far fewer jobs. You need to talk to some younger attorneys and law students to get an idea of what things are really like.

Also, have you fully thought about and internalized what kind of debt you'll be taking on? You say you don't want biglaw, but that most likely leaves you with a 40-60k/year job. That all sounds fine and dandy (which it is), but do you know how hard it will be to pay off 180k+ with interest on a $45,000 a year starting salary?


See, this is how I know a lot of people ignore the entire purpose of the thread in favor of talking down to others about LSAT scores.

The whole point of the thread is whether I should get the 150k debt from SMU, or just take 35k from Ole Miss. But this is the closest you've come to answering the original question and you didn't even mean to.


You should take 150k debt from SMU, unless you can get in somewhere more expensive, in which case you should go there.

How is that helpful? You didn't even tell OP which schools are more expensive so he could target them.

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romothesavior
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby romothesavior » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:54 am

No one is answering the original question because neither option is very good. (SMU is a fine school, but not at 150k in debt). If you insist on going to law school this year, I'd go to Ole Miss to keep your debts low. Just realize a few things:

1. Your odds of getting a job (any paid legal job) are not that good.
2. If you do find a job, it will likely be less than what you would make if you started working in accounting right now.
3. You may very well close the doors to accounting and other non-law jobs by getting a J.D. (or at least make it very hard to get employed in those fields)

If you are okay with that, then proceed, but you better realize what you're getting yourself into.

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General Tso
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby General Tso » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:55 am

rad law wrote:
romothesavior wrote:You need to talk to some younger attorneys and law students to get an idea of what things are really like.


This.

The best information you can get about "in this economy" hiring is from '09 and '10 grads and current law students, aka the people who are actually looking for job.


My bro graduated from Ole Miss law in 2005-2007 (not going to be specific). He was below median and is making ~40k at a local government agency. Most of his friends had similar results, even those with above median grades. Sure, a few people in the top 5-10% got market paying jobs (120-160k) in larger markets, but the vast majority were around 40k to start. He also had friends who went into solo practice right away. They were making around 20-25k last I heard in tiny MS towns.

I think Ole Miss is a good option if you know what you are getting yourself into. 40k is a good salary in Mississippi. But you have to make sure your debt is no more than 30-40k as well. I think if money is all that you are after, you are better off sticking with Accounting.

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romothesavior
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby romothesavior » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:56 am

JazzOne wrote:How is that helpful? You didn't even tell OP which schools are more expensive so he could target them.

I hear Thomas Jefferson is really expensive and they barely give anyone scholarships!
Last edited by romothesavior on Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:57 am, edited 1 time in total.

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fatduck
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby fatduck » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:56 am

JazzOne wrote:
fatduck wrote:
LoyalRebel wrote:
romothesavior wrote:Not 1,000, more like 10,000. But who's counting?

Anyways, you just illustrated a perfect point... you need to learn about the current legal economy. I don't doubt that you talked to a successful attorney, and I don't doubt that he means well, but things are so radically different now. The legal market is almost unrecognizable from what it was 20-30 years ago. There are far more schools and students, and far fewer jobs. You need to talk to some younger attorneys and law students to get an idea of what things are really like.

Also, have you fully thought about and internalized what kind of debt you'll be taking on? You say you don't want biglaw, but that most likely leaves you with a 40-60k/year job. That all sounds fine and dandy (which it is), but do you know how hard it will be to pay off 180k+ with interest on a $45,000 a year starting salary?


See, this is how I know a lot of people ignore the entire purpose of the thread in favor of talking down to others about LSAT scores.

The whole point of the thread is whether I should get the 150k debt from SMU, or just take 35k from Ole Miss. But this is the closest you've come to answering the original question and you didn't even mean to.


You should take 150k debt from SMU, unless you can get in somewhere more expensive, in which case you should go there.

How is that helpful? You didn't even tell OP which schools are more expensive so he could target them.


He's a hard worker, though. I'm sure he doesn't mind the extra legwork.

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DoubleChecks
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby DoubleChecks » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:02 am

Honestly, OP, I agree with most of the posters in here. You claim you are very hard working and bright -- put a good faith effort into doing more research about law schools in general..in this economy. I would not recommend law school to a lot of people. Speak to current 2Ls and 3Ls at Ole' Miss -- see what they have to say. Speak to some SMU 2Ls and 3Ls too. People on this thread aren't fake 14 yr olds; a lot of the posters here are current law school students are damned good schools. Very little reason to lie or put others down for no reason either.

If you still feel like law school (SMU or Ole Miss) is a good choice at the end of the day...or if you dont care about debt (sounds like you do though) and just want to be a LAWYER to PRACTICE THE LAW on principles (money be damned!)...well then go for it. And yes, I am taking into account your accounting background and resume. While nice, it really is not super special for law school. Also, if you arent even willing (or able) to put forth the effort and skill to get a higher LSAT score...which takes considerably less time and work than 3 yrs of law school...why do you think you'd be able to do it at Ole' Miss? Other people may think like you too and go in expecting to be top 10 or 20%...only 10 or 20% actually manage to do it however :P

Now to be more direct in answering your question...I do not know much about Ole Miss, but SMU does pretty decent in the Dallas area. If you are fine working there...it might be a good choice. For that much debt though...probably not (assuming you dont have connections). Seriously, retaking the LSAT is saving you a lot of money and regret. That is why everyone, against your wishes, is jumping on it. It's like seeing a person online say they are about to burn $100,000 in cash. Most just cant stand by and watch that happen!

Good luck. Do moar research.

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FeelTheHeat
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby FeelTheHeat » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:03 am

romothesavior wrote:
JazzOne wrote:How is that helpful? You didn't even tell OP which schools are more expensive so he could target them.

I hear Thomas Jefferson is really expensive and they barely give anyone scholarships!


Egregious anti-John Marshall trolling.

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JazzOne
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby JazzOne » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:05 am

FeelTheHeat wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
JazzOne wrote:How is that helpful? You didn't even tell OP which schools are more expensive so he could target them.

I hear Thomas Jefferson is really expensive and they barely give anyone scholarships!


Egregious anti-John Marshall trolling.

lol

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Grizz
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby Grizz » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:08 am

OP could go to Nova. Or Barry.

rose711
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby rose711 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:10 am

I actually think that OP has already decided to minimize debt and go to Ole Miss. He is from there and it may be ok for him in a local market.

The other option, which most of the thread thinks is best, is to retake and get money at another school. OP could do that and maybe the debt would be less as well as he might get a better chance at jobs. But I think OP sounds happy at Ole Miss. If he isn't in too deep there, maybe he should stay where he is happy. There is something to be said for staying in a familiar environment.

My advice would be to start networking at Ole Miss law school immediately, talk to deans, professors, students, anyone you can to get advice and contacts. Maybe find a good program you can volunteer in as an 0L and start building softs for your resume. I would research every local firm and get to know every judge - even if you just stop by their chambers and make an appointment. Join the bar association if they have student events. Read the post by vanwinkle here about looking for jobs as a 1L.

I think you can be successful - just get on the career building aspects right away- before you start school - so people will know you. And do research here on how to be successful in law school. Get organized for school and figure out how you will manage it.

Gleason
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby Gleason » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:41 am

People all too often shout RETAKE to people's questions asking for advice. It's tiresome and unhelpful.

With that said, RETAKE is really the only good advice here.

There is just no way to counterbalance (1) either (a) way better scholarships, i.e. way less debt, or (b) way better school options, i.e. way better employment opportunities with (2) a one year hiatus.

Really, think about what this means in the long run. (1) will be a really big deal, make a huge difference for a lot of years. (2) will mean something kinda annoying for one year. So think about it. Plus, one year is more distance between your employment search and the wretched economy. Plus, it is pretty clear you could do better. Put that work ethic toward studying and get the money and/or the school you deserve.

Also, there is no reason to not think you'll be in the top 10%. Statistics aren't everything. It would be stupid to go through life assigning statistical probabilities to your success based on numbers. You'd never do anything worthwhile.

With that said, be top 10% at a better school or with less debt. Because it would all be so much better. In other words, whatever success you predict for yourself will be elevated much higher, made much easier, with one stinking year of studying for a goddamn test.


Edit: Ole Miss does not sound like a bad option. I know nothing of how scholarships work there, nothing of COL there, nothing of how much you want to stay there, nothing of the Miss market. So, I mean, going could be the right move. But if they give out scholarships, and so you could do the same thing in one year but save just over 30,000, well, come on.. And if some part of you is feeling resigned to Miss, then, again, come on..
Last edited by Gleason on Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

lawfuture10
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby lawfuture10 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 2:44 am

157 Cold turkey?? Study hard for 6 months, RETAKE and get a 170 and go to UT with $$$. Solves all your problems. Don't waste your GPA.

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romothesavior
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Re: Tuition - How much is too much?

Postby romothesavior » Mon Feb 21, 2011 1:31 pm

Gleason wrote:People all too often shout RETAKE to people's questions asking for advice. It's tiresome and unhelpful.

With that said, RETAKE is really the only good advice here.

Pot, meet kettle.




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