Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

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xyzbca
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby xyzbca » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:47 pm

fatduck wrote:
xyzbca wrote:You are precisely the person who should be taking the scholarship at the lower ranked school. If you really have these "strong connections" you should be minimizing your debt. Why pay $200k for a Ferrari if you can get it for $100k (using your figures)? The vast majority of rational people would put up with the indignity of living in Austin for 3 years if it netted them $100,000. That's essentially a year of after tax income for a first year associate. Something just isn't adding up about your story.

I don't know, I think it makes sense. I'm considering taking a bigger debt-risk for a chance at a higher ceiling in terms of career paths, because I have a fallback option that can support me even if I completely strike out with 150k debt. It just depends on your personal goals.


I don't disagree with your choice. The poster I'm responding to makes it sound like he/she could walk right into a V5 job due to his/her "strong connections." If you have no choice but to pay $200k for the Ferrari, well, you pay the $200k. But if you can get it for $100k, what would the rational person do?

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fatduck
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby fatduck » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:50 pm

xyzbca wrote:
fatduck wrote:
xyzbca wrote:You are precisely the person who should be taking the scholarship at the lower ranked school. If you really have these "strong connections" you should be minimizing your debt. Why pay $200k for a Ferrari if you can get it for $100k (using your figures)? The vast majority of rational people would put up with the indignity of living in Austin for 3 years if it netted them $100,000. That's essentially a year of after tax income for a first year associate. Something just isn't adding up about your story.

I don't know, I think it makes sense. I'm considering taking a bigger debt-risk for a chance at a higher ceiling in terms of career paths, because I have a fallback option that can support me even if I completely strike out with 150k debt. It just depends on your personal goals.


I don't disagree with your choice. The poster I'm responding to makes it sound like he/she could walk right into a V5 job due to his/her "strong connections." If you have no choice but to pay $200k for the Ferrari, well, you pay the $200k. But if you can get it for $100k, what would the rational person do?

I think you're straw-manning a little bit. He said he knows partners who could give him paying summer work if he struck out, not necessarily post-grad work, and not necessarily at a large or prestigious firm.

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kwais
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby kwais » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:50 pm

xyzbca wrote:
fatduck wrote:
xyzbca wrote:You are precisely the person who should be taking the scholarship at the lower ranked school. If you really have these "strong connections" you should be minimizing your debt. Why pay $200k for a Ferrari if you can get it for $100k (using your figures)? The vast majority of rational people would put up with the indignity of living in Austin for 3 years if it netted them $100,000. That's essentially a year of after tax income for a first year associate. Something just isn't adding up about your story.

I don't know, I think it makes sense. I'm considering taking a bigger debt-risk for a chance at a higher ceiling in terms of career paths, because I have a fallback option that can support me even if I completely strike out with 150k debt. It just depends on your personal goals.


I don't disagree with your choice. The poster I'm responding to makes it sound like he/she could walk right into a V5 job due to his/her "strong connections." If you have no choice but to pay $200k for the Ferrari, well, you pay the $200k. But if you can get it for $100k, what would the rational person do?


we are not talking V5 here, we are talking not going to default on debt here. sorry if I made it seem otherwise. I think your analogy is off too. you should say why get the ferrari when you could get an audi. The answer is obvious to many.

rundoxierun
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:50 pm

xyzbca wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:Monitoring this thread for potential entry..

Current deciding between 25k undergrad debt plus another 30-40k debt at UMich(55-65k total) vs. same plus 125-130k debt at Harvard(150-155k total).


Goals?


Biglaw is definitely a more than acceptable outcome in the immediate future but Im not 100% set on anything long-term. If I had the grades/opportunity I would clerk and eventually go academia after the usual stint in biglaw. In-house would also be a good mid/long-term outcome. I dont think Im willing to make the financial sacrifice for Public Interest and the only govt stuff I would be interested in would be securities related and I doubt I have the resume to get a sniff at that right now.
Last edited by rundoxierun on Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MTal
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby MTal » Sun Feb 27, 2011 8:53 pm

Heh, and the TLS circle jerk/echo chamber continues. It goes a little something like this...

TLS poster # 1: Hey guys, I think taking out 200k in loans for dubious employment prospects isn't such a bad idea! Whaddaya say?!?!

TLS poster # 2: Yeah I concur!! I think taking out 200k in non-dischargeable debt which I may or may not be able to pay back is AWESOME!

TLS poster # 3: Yeah you guys are right!! I mean come on...EVERYONE is doing it, how could they all be wrong??


And an orgy of self-congratulatory back patting, ego stroking, and self-delusion ensues.

xyzbca
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby xyzbca » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:02 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
xyzbca wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:Monitoring this thread for potential entry..

Current deciding between 25k undergrad debt plus another 30-40k debt at UMich(55-65k total) vs. same plus 125-130k debt at Harvard(150-155k total).


Goals?


Biglaw is definitely a more than acceptable outcome in the immediate future but Im not 100% set on anything long-term. If I had the grades/opportunity I would clerk and eventually go academia after the usual stint in biglaw. In-house would also be a good mid/long-term outcome. I dont think Im not willing to make the financial sacrifice for Public Interest and the only govt stuff I would be interested in would be securities related and I doubt I have the resume to get a sniff at that right now.


In your shoes and with your goals, I would take Harvard and start applying for diversity scholarships late in the summer (a small part of why I'm heading towards a debt free graduation). It is not guaranteed but you may be able to pick up enough scholarship money + paying SA work (both summers) to get your debt load down to around $120k.

rundoxierun
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:05 pm

MTal wrote:Heh, and the TLS circle jerk/echo chamber continues. It goes a little something like this...

TLS poster # 1: Hey guys, I think taking out 200k in loans for dubious employment prospects isn't such a bad idea! Whaddaya say?!?!

TLS poster # 2: Yeah I concur!! I think taking out 200k in non-dischargeable debt which I may or may not be able to pay back is AWESOME!

TLS poster # 3: Yeah you guys are right!! I mean come on...EVERYONE is doing it, how could they all be wrong??


And an orgy of self-congratulatory back patting, ego stroking, and self-delusion ensues.


I think it depends on what assumptions you are using.. If you are assuming there will be a moderate bounceback and all top-10 schools will be placing ~60% or greater in biglaw(or biglaw pay)+art. III then I dont think it is ridiculous since at the very least 15-20% of the remainder will get LRAP qualifying PI, decent gov't work or counsel work at things like universities, and decent pay in a secondary market. In that case, based on your assumptions you are thinking less than 25% of the class might be in a "screwed" position(assuming you dont mind PI). At that point I would say it is a debatable position.

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MTal
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby MTal » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:09 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
MTal wrote:Heh, and the TLS circle jerk/echo chamber continues. It goes a little something like this...

TLS poster # 1: Hey guys, I think taking out 200k in loans for dubious employment prospects isn't such a bad idea! Whaddaya say?!?!

TLS poster # 2: Yeah I concur!! I think taking out 200k in non-dischargeable debt which I may or may not be able to pay back is AWESOME!

TLS poster # 3: Yeah you guys are right!! I mean come on...EVERYONE is doing it, how could they all be wrong??


And an orgy of self-congratulatory back patting, ego stroking, and self-delusion ensues.


I think it depends on what assumptions you are using.. If you are assuming there will be a moderate bounceback and all top-10 schools will be placing ~60% or greater in biglaw(or biglaw pay)+art. III then I dont think it is ridiculous since at the very least 15-20% of the remainder will get LRAP qualifying PI, decent gov't work or counsel work at things like universities, and decent pay in a secondary market. In that case, based on your assumptions you are thinking less than 25% of the class might be in a "screwed" position(assuming you dont mind PI). At that point I would say it is a debatable position.


NLJ Biglaw placement rankings came out on Saturday. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=148708

The top 10 schools placed less than FIFTY PERCENT in biglaw, and that was for the class of 2010. The class of 2011, the ones who were hardest by the financial crisis in fall of 08' are even MORE fucked than the class before.

rundoxierun
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:10 pm

xyzbca wrote:
In your shoes and with your goals, I would take Harvard and start applying for diversity scholarships late in the summer (a small part of why I'm heading towards a debt free graduation). It is not guaranteed but you may be able to pick up enough scholarship money + paying SA work (both summers) to get your debt load down to around $120k.


I originally thought this would be a big factor but it turns out that Harvard reduces grant aid when you make significant summer money. The allowance I would get from an SA would be enough to cover interest at most. At Harvard the only way to reduce your debt is by winning outside scholarships so I would have to pray I get a diversity SA that comes with a scholarship.

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rman1201
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby rman1201 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:12 pm

MTal wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
MTal wrote:Heh, and the TLS circle jerk/echo chamber continues. It goes a little something like this...

TLS poster # 1: Hey guys, I think taking out 200k in loans for dubious employment prospects isn't such a bad idea! Whaddaya say?!?!

TLS poster # 2: Yeah I concur!! I think taking out 200k in non-dischargeable debt which I may or may not be able to pay back is AWESOME!

TLS poster # 3: Yeah you guys are right!! I mean come on...EVERYONE is doing it, how could they all be wrong??


And an orgy of self-congratulatory back patting, ego stroking, and self-delusion ensues.


I think it depends on what assumptions you are using.. If you are assuming there will be a moderate bounceback and all top-10 schools will be placing ~60% or greater in biglaw(or biglaw pay)+art. III then I dont think it is ridiculous since at the very least 15-20% of the remainder will get LRAP qualifying PI, decent gov't work or counsel work at things like universities, and decent pay in a secondary market. In that case, based on your assumptions you are thinking less than 25% of the class might be in a "screwed" position(assuming you dont mind PI). At that point I would say it is a debatable position.


NLJ Biglaw placement rankings came out on Saturday. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=148708

The top 10 schools placed less than FIFTY PERCENT in biglaw, and that was for the class of 2010. The class of 2011, the ones who were hardest by the financial crisis in fall of 08' are even MORE fucked than the class before.


Because everyone at a T10 wants nothing but BigLaw

rundoxierun
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:14 pm

MTal wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
MTal wrote:Heh, and the TLS circle jerk/echo chamber continues. It goes a little something like this...

TLS poster # 1: Hey guys, I think taking out 200k in loans for dubious employment prospects isn't such a bad idea! Whaddaya say?!?!

TLS poster # 2: Yeah I concur!! I think taking out 200k in non-dischargeable debt which I may or may not be able to pay back is AWESOME!

TLS poster # 3: Yeah you guys are right!! I mean come on...EVERYONE is doing it, how could they all be wrong??


And an orgy of self-congratulatory back patting, ego stroking, and self-delusion ensues.


I think it depends on what assumptions you are using.. If you are assuming there will be a moderate bounceback and all top-10 schools will be placing ~60% or greater in biglaw(or biglaw pay)+art. III then I dont think it is ridiculous since at the very least 15-20% of the remainder will get LRAP qualifying PI, decent gov't work or counsel work at things like universities, and decent pay in a secondary market. In that case, based on your assumptions you are thinking less than 25% of the class might be in a "screwed" position(assuming you dont mind PI). At that point I would say it is a debatable position.


NLJ Biglaw placement rankings came out on Saturday. viewtopic.php?f=1&t=148708

The top 10 schools placed less than FIFTY PERCENT in biglaw, and that was for the class of 2010. The class of 2011, the ones who were hardest by the financial crisis in fall of 08' are even MORE fucked than the class before.


I am aware of this. For us, our assumptions are based on c/o 2014(OCI late 2012). If we assume a slow, modest improvement it is not at all unreasonable to think the top 10 schools will be back up to around 50% by then and throw in a minimum art. III clerkship placement of 10% and that gets you to the 60% figure.

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rman1201
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby rman1201 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:17 pm

If you don't have a direct interest in this thread, kindly GTFO.
Seriously MTal, just because law wasn't for you doesn't mean no one should ever go to law school.
Fuck, maybe I'll go to Acting school, do horribly because I have no acting talent, then lurch on Acting forums telling everyone interested in acting what a stupid idea it is.

xyzbca
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby xyzbca » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:19 pm

rman1201 wrote:If you don't have a direct interest in this thread, kindly GTFO.


Seems that most people take out some kind of federal loans to go to law school. Does my status as a taxpayer qualify as a direct interest?

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fatduck
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby fatduck » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:21 pm

xyzbca wrote:
rman1201 wrote:If you don't have a direct interest in this thread, kindly GTFO.


Seems that most people take out some kind of federal loans to go to law school. Does my status as a taxpayer qualify as a direct interest?

lol, the recovery rate on student loans is like 85%. for comparison, it's less than 10% for credit card debt. i don't think the government is getting hosed on federal loans.

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MTal
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby MTal » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:21 pm

rman1201 wrote:If you don't have a direct interest in this thread, kindly GTFO.
Seriously MTal, just because law wasn't for you doesn't mean no one should ever go to law school.


Sounds like the equivalent of sticking both fingers in your ears and yelling at the top of your lungs "laa laa laa I'm not listening! I'm not listening!"

I never said going to law school is a bad idea, I said going to law school and taking out 200k is a bad idea. Law school is a GREAT idea if you get a free ride and have a guaranteed job (read: through a close friend or relative) lined up after graduation.

FiveSermon
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:24 pm

MTal wrote:
rman1201 wrote:If you don't have a direct interest in this thread, kindly GTFO.
Seriously MTal, just because law wasn't for you doesn't mean no one should ever go to law school.


Sounds like the equivalent of sticking both fingers in your ears and yelling at the top of your lungs "laa laa laa I'm not listening! I'm not listening!"

I never said going to law school is a bad idea, I said going to law school and taking out 200k is a bad idea. Law school is a GREAT idea if you get a free ride and have a guaranteed job (read: through a close friend or relative) lined up after graduation.


Cool story brah.

rundoxierun
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:27 pm

rman1201 wrote:If you don't have a direct interest in this thread, kindly GTFO.
Seriously MTal, just because law wasn't for you doesn't mean no one should ever go to law school.
Fuck, maybe I'll go to Acting school, do horribly because I have no acting talent, then lurch on Acting forums telling everyone interested in acting what a stupid idea it is.


I think MTal should stay. We can all bounce around scenarios and have a discussion. I still think a reasonable assessment is that, at the low end, 70-80% of T-10 students will be in a position where 6 figure debt(although 200k is definitely pushing it) wont bring about catastrophic financial failure.

FiveSermon
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:28 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
rman1201 wrote:If you don't have a direct interest in this thread, kindly GTFO.
Seriously MTal, just because law wasn't for you doesn't mean no one should ever go to law school.
Fuck, maybe I'll go to Acting school, do horribly because I have no acting talent, then lurch on Acting forums telling everyone interested in acting what a stupid idea it is.


I think MTal should stay. We can all bounce around scenarios and have a discussion. I still think a reasonable assessment is that, at the low end, 70-80% of T-10 students will be in a position where 6 figure debt(although 200k is definitely pushing it) wont bring about catastrophic financial failure.


Whatever happened to T14?

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rman1201
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby rman1201 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:34 pm

tkgrrett wrote:
rman1201 wrote:If you don't have a direct interest in this thread, kindly GTFO.
Seriously MTal, just because law wasn't for you doesn't mean no one should ever go to law school.
Fuck, maybe I'll go to Acting school, do horribly because I have no acting talent, then lurch on Acting forums telling everyone interested in acting what a stupid idea it is.


I think MTal should stay. We can all bounce around scenarios and have a discussion. I still think a reasonable assessment is that, at the low end, 70-80% of T-10 students will be in a position where 6 figure debt(although 200k is definitely pushing it) wont bring about catastrophic financial failure.


I just don't get the point of MTal being here. According to him <0.005% of the general population is fit to go to law school, and he doesn't seem to bring anything constructive or useful to the conversation.

rundoxierun
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:44 pm

rman1201 wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
rman1201 wrote:If you don't have a direct interest in this thread, kindly GTFO.
Seriously MTal, just because law wasn't for you doesn't mean no one should ever go to law school.
Fuck, maybe I'll go to Acting school, do horribly because I have no acting talent, then lurch on Acting forums telling everyone interested in acting what a stupid idea it is.


I think MTal should stay. We can all bounce around scenarios and have a discussion. I still think a reasonable assessment is that, at the low end, 70-80% of T-10 students will be in a position where 6 figure debt(although 200k is definitely pushing it) wont bring about catastrophic financial failure.


I just don't get the point of MTal being here. According to him <0.005% of the general population is fit to go to law school, and he doesn't seem to bring anything constructive or useful to the conversation.


Well I want to see what he thinks of the 70-80% being ok assessment for T-14 level schools.

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LLB2JD
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby LLB2JD » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:45 pm

FiveSermon wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
rman1201 wrote:If you don't have a direct interest in this thread, kindly GTFO.
Seriously MTal, just because law wasn't for you doesn't mean no one should ever go to law school.
Fuck, maybe I'll go to Acting school, do horribly because I have no acting talent, then lurch on Acting forums telling everyone interested in acting what a stupid idea it is.


I think MTal should stay. We can all bounce around scenarios and have a discussion. I still think a reasonable assessment is that, at the low end, 70-80% of T-10 students will be in a position where 6 figure debt(although 200k is definitely pushing it) wont bring about catastrophic financial failure.


Whatever happened to T14?



Lol. Believe me, by next year, T-10 would not even make the cut anymore. It'd be T6.

FiveSermon
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby FiveSermon » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:48 pm

LLB2JD wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
rman1201 wrote:If you don't have a direct interest in this thread, kindly GTFO.
Seriously MTal, just because law wasn't for you doesn't mean no one should ever go to law school.
Fuck, maybe I'll go to Acting school, do horribly because I have no acting talent, then lurch on Acting forums telling everyone interested in acting what a stupid idea it is.


I think MTal should stay. We can all bounce around scenarios and have a discussion. I still think a reasonable assessment is that, at the low end, 70-80% of T-10 students will be in a position where 6 figure debt(although 200k is definitely pushing it) wont bring about catastrophic financial failure.


Whatever happened to T14?



Lol. Believe me, by next year, T-10 would not even make the cut anymore. It'd be T6.


Why yo

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beachbum
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby beachbum » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:50 pm

And I thought this thread was such a good idea, too. Guess I almost forgot we were on TLS.

@MTal: LOL at your life. Your constant nagging on TLS has turned you into a caricature, and your "doomsday" message into a running joke. Which is a shame because, at its core, there really is something to what you're trying (unsuccessfully) to say. But you are the TLS equivalent of those news articles that speak out against law school, and then use an unemployed TTT grad as their prime example. It's so ridiculous that people- even people who probably should be listening to the core advice- brush it aside as faulty journalism. You- and these articles- are worse than nothing, because you're turning an otherwise worthwhile message into a punchline. If you want to actually make a difference, then get rid of your current handle, create an alt, and start over with a much more subtle and reasonable approach. Also, don't you have, like, better shit to do?

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rman1201
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby rman1201 » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:50 pm

LLB2JD wrote:
FiveSermon wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
rman1201 wrote:If you don't have a direct interest in this thread, kindly GTFO.
Seriously MTal, just because law wasn't for you doesn't mean no one should ever go to law school.
Fuck, maybe I'll go to Acting school, do horribly because I have no acting talent, then lurch on Acting forums telling everyone interested in acting what a stupid idea it is.


I think MTal should stay. We can all bounce around scenarios and have a discussion. I still think a reasonable assessment is that, at the low end, 70-80% of T-10 students will be in a position where 6 figure debt(although 200k is definitely pushing it) wont bring about catastrophic financial failure.


Whatever happened to T14?


Lol. Believe me, by next year, T-10 would not even make the cut anymore. It'd be T6 T5.


FTFY

NYU no longer makes the cut

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MTal
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Re: Support Thread for the 6-figure debt plunge

Postby MTal » Sun Feb 27, 2011 9:52 pm

beachbum wrote:And I thought this thread was such a good idea, too. Guess I almost forgot we were on TLS.

@MTal: LOL at your life. Your constant nagging on TLS has turned you into a caricature, and your "doomsday" message into a running joke. Which is a shame because, at its core, there really is something to what you're trying (unsuccessfully) to say. But you are the TLS equivalent of those news articles that speak out against law school, and then use an unemployed TTT grad as their prime example. It's so ridiculous that people- even people who probably should be listening to the core advice- brush it aside as faulty journalism. You- and these articles- are worse than nothing, because you're turning an otherwise worthwhile message into a punchline. If you want to actually make a difference, then get rid of your current handle, create an alt, and start over with a much more subtle and reasonable approach. Also, don't you have, like, better shit to do?


blah blah blah...shoot the messenger.

::yawn::

Do you umm...have any like...SUBSTANTIVE disagreements with what I'm saying?




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