Is it silly to want to work in California?

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FlanAl
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby FlanAl » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:06 pm

the beaches are much better on the east coast...


have to take major issue with this statement: big sur, la jolla and laguna are all incredible and San Diego has more surf spots than any other city in the world.

AND can someone please explain the USC hating? and why people claim that only top 25% get biglaw. is the nlj go to schools from last year really all that off? (has the new one come out yet?)

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:08 pm

bk1 wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:
Being able to afford a down payment on a home in the bay area at age 30 is something that I'm really not sure many other careers offer.


True... but, this thread isn't about which careers are best for living in the Bay Area...

So your point was tangential at best?


Looking at the big picture of living/working in California, it was a valid point. I'd have given the same response to pretty much any profession other than a MD... it'll be very difficult to afford a home in CA (specifically the Bay Area), on most salaries.

The point: Difficult to afford a 4/2 home in the Bay Area in a nice neighborhood. Proof: Finances I provided along with home costs provided.

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bk1
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby bk1 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:09 pm

FlanAl wrote:
the beaches are much better on the east coast...


have to take major issue with this statement: big sur, la jolla and laguna are all incredible and San Diego has more surf spots than any other city in the world.

AND can someone please explain the USC hating? and why people claim that only top 25% get biglaw. is the nlj go to schools from last year really all that off? (has the new one come out yet?)


Yes it is because that is for the class of 2009 who did oci in 2007 before the crash.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:10 pm

FlanAl wrote:
the beaches are much better on the east coast...


have to take major issue with this statement: big sur, la jolla and laguna are all incredible and San Diego has more surf spots than any other city in the world.

AND can someone please explain the USC hating? and why people claim that only top 25% get biglaw. is the nlj go to schools from last year really all that off? (has the new one come out yet?)


I love Laguna Beach, but, I also prefer the warm waters and softer sand of Florida beaches. Nothing wrong with CA beaches, I just believe FL beaches are better.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:17 pm

Hannibal wrote:Lived in the Bay Area all my life...Scrabble is either entirely talking out of his ass or has an extremely high standard of living. My cousin makes less than 40k, has a nice place of his own with his girlfriend in a nice area of Lafayette, has a one hour commute to SF on BART. You can easily find a 4-bedroom house in the east bay for less than 600k in a decent neighborhood.


I'm not talking out of my ass... I grew up in Los Altos Hills. Having lived in the south bay, my general defintion of the "Bay Area" seldom includes the east bay, as I never lived there and, aside from friends in Fremont, never really went there... Though, I did go to Union City for Fudruckers a few times (shout out for the Ostrich burgers). And, again, I'm coming from the "necessity" of having at least a 4 bedroom house with a large yard, 2500+ square feet, private tutors for my children, etc... It is a lot different with no spouse/no kids. But, if the goal is to have kids, have a house large enough for them to run around, have a yard, send them to private school/home school, etc... it'll be hard to do so in a safe neighborhood in the Bay Area on a $160k salary with $80k in loans.

As far as your cousin is concerned, $40k/year realistically can't afford more than about $150,000 home loan, and I don't imagine there are too many $150,000 homes around. And, as far as the commute is concerned, it may not matter to a single person, but a one hour commute each way isn't something I would do as I would prefer to see my family at some point... BigLaw 10-12 hour days with another 2 hours on top for commuting leaves no time for anything else.

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Hannibal
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby Hannibal » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:17 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
bk1 wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:
Being able to afford a down payment on a home in the bay area at age 30 is something that I'm really not sure many other careers offer.


True... but, this thread isn't about which careers are best for living in the Bay Area...

So your point was tangential at best?


Looking at the big picture of living/working in California, it was a valid point. I'd have given the same response to pretty much any profession other than a MD... it'll be very difficult to afford a home in CA (specifically the Bay Area), on most salaries.

The point: Difficult to afford a 4/2 home in the Bay Area in a nice neighborhood. Proof: Finances I provided along with home costs provided.


One home is not proof for an area with millions of people.

Counter proof: Current value of my family's East Bay 3/2 home.

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Hannibal
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby Hannibal » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:19 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
Hannibal wrote:Lived in the Bay Area all my life...Scrabble is either entirely talking out of his ass or has an extremely high standard of living. My cousin makes less than 40k, has a nice place of his own with his girlfriend in a nice area of Lafayette, has a one hour commute to SF on BART. You can easily find a 4-bedroom house in the east bay for less than 600k in a decent neighborhood.


I'm not talking out of my ass... I grew up in Los Altos Hills. Having lived in the south bay, my general defintion of the "Bay Area" seldom includes the east bay, as I never lived there and, aside from friends in Fremont, never really went there... Though, I did go to Union City for Fudruckers a few times (shout out for the Ostrich burgers). And, again, I'm coming from the "necessity" of having at least a 4 bedroom house with a large yard, 2500+ square feet, private tutors for my children, etc... It is a lot different with no spouse/no kids. But, if the goal is to have kids, have a house large enough for them to run around, have a yard, send them to private school/home school, etc... it'll be hard to do so in a safe neighborhood in the Bay Area on a $160k salary with $80k in loans.

As far as your cousin is concerned, $40k/year realistically can't afford more than about $150,000 home loan, and I don't imagine there are too many $150,000 homes around. And, as far as the commute is concerned, it may not matter to a single person, but a one hour commute each way isn't something I would do as I would prefer to see my family at some point... BigLaw 10-12 hour days with another 2 hours on top for commuting leaves no time for anything else.


Places do exist in physical space regardless of whether or not you visit them.

Also, since when is buying a home a requirement? And why is four bedrooms necessary?

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bk1
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby bk1 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:20 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
Hannibal wrote:Lived in the Bay Area all my life...Scrabble is either entirely talking out of his ass or has an extremely high standard of living. My cousin makes less than 40k, has a nice place of his own with his girlfriend in a nice area of Lafayette, has a one hour commute to SF on BART. You can easily find a 4-bedroom house in the east bay for less than 600k in a decent neighborhood.


I'm not talking out of my ass... I grew up in Los Altos Hills. Having lived in the south bay, my general defintion of the "Bay Area" seldom includes the east bay, as I never lived there and, aside from friends in Fremont, never really went there... Though, I did go to Union City for Fudruckers a few times (shout out for the Ostrich burgers). And, again, I'm coming from the "necessity" of having at least a 4 bedroom house with a large yard, 2500+ square feet, private tutors for my children, etc... It is a lot different with no spouse/no kids. But, if the goal is to have kids, have a house large enough for them to run around, have a yard, send them to private school/home school, etc... it'll be hard to do so in a safe neighborhood in the Bay Area on a $160k salary with $80k in loans.

As far as your cousin is concerned, $40k/year realistically can't afford more than about $150,000 home loan, and I don't imagine there are too many $150,000 homes around. And, as far as the commute is concerned, it may not matter to a single person, but a one hour commute each way isn't something I would do as I would prefer to see my family at some point... BigLaw 10-12 hour days with another 2 hours on top for commuting leaves no time for anything else.

Private tutors are a necessity? The east bay isn't part of the bay area?

I'll have whatever you're smoking.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:21 pm

One home is not proof for an area with millions of people.

Counter proof: Current value of my family's East Bay 3/2 home.


Go to realestate.yahoo.com, do a quick search for a 4/2 home in Cupertino, for instance. Cheapest one that came up was $835,000 out of the 50 available homes. That's not one home... that's at least 50 homes for sale in Cupertino that are no less than $835k. And Cupertino isn't even the nicest of the cities in the south bay or the Bay Area, in general.

I'm sure there are other ways to find homes for sale in the Bay Area, but I didn't want to spend all day looking it up, so I just used Yahoo!. I'm sure you can find a site that shows a $500,000 home in the Bay Area, but I think the basic stuff I looked up is good enough to make the point I was making.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:23 pm

bk1 wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:
Hannibal wrote:Lived in the Bay Area all my life...Scrabble is either entirely talking out of his ass or has an extremely high standard of living. My cousin makes less than 40k, has a nice place of his own with his girlfriend in a nice area of Lafayette, has a one hour commute to SF on BART. You can easily find a 4-bedroom house in the east bay for less than 600k in a decent neighborhood.


I'm not talking out of my ass... I grew up in Los Altos Hills. Having lived in the south bay, my general defintion of the "Bay Area" seldom includes the east bay, as I never lived there and, aside from friends in Fremont, never really went there... Though, I did go to Union City for Fudruckers a few times (shout out for the Ostrich burgers). And, again, I'm coming from the "necessity" of having at least a 4 bedroom house with a large yard, 2500+ square feet, private tutors for my children, etc... It is a lot different with no spouse/no kids. But, if the goal is to have kids, have a house large enough for them to run around, have a yard, send them to private school/home school, etc... it'll be hard to do so in a safe neighborhood in the Bay Area on a $160k salary with $80k in loans.

As far as your cousin is concerned, $40k/year realistically can't afford more than about $150,000 home loan, and I don't imagine there are too many $150,000 homes around. And, as far as the commute is concerned, it may not matter to a single person, but a one hour commute each way isn't something I would do as I would prefer to see my family at some point... BigLaw 10-12 hour days with another 2 hours on top for commuting leaves no time for anything else.

Private tutors are a necessity? The east bay isn't part of the bay area?

I'll have whatever you're smoking.


I didn't say the east bay isn't part of the Bay Area, I simply said I very rarely think of Union City, Hayward, etc... as part of the Bay Area as I was raised and spent most of my time in the south bay. Plus, the definition of "east bay" is so varied it's hard to keep up... I know people who include Concord in the east bay, and others who draw the line at Oakland. The south bay is much easier to define. Nothing south of San Jose.

For me, yes, private tutors are a necessity. I hate public schools (high school and below) and think, for the most part, they are all crap. Even the schools that produce great SAT scores have teachers that teach questionable crap (as far as personal politics, etc...) My wife and I both have teaching credentials and we home school. However, there are somethings that are better taught by professionals. I have the knowledge to teach any math/hard science class my children will encounter, but a credentialed chemistry tutor will do a much better job than I. It is much cheaper to pay a tutor, or several, on a yearly basis than it is to send my children to the private schools in the area I live.
Last edited by ScrabbleChamp on Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:25 pm

Places do exist in physical space regardless of whether or not you visit them.Also, since when is buying a home a requirement? And why is four bedrooms necessary?


Great... than show me a home in the Bay Area that is $150,000, four bedrooms, and isn't a POS.

Four bedrooms are necessary if you have the requisite number of children.

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Reedie
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby Reedie » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:28 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:Great... than show me a home in the Bay Area that is $150,000, four bedrooms, and isn't a POS.

Four bedrooms are necessary if you have the requisite number of children.


Are you aware that the numbers one million and one hundred fifty thousand are very far apart from one another?

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:31 pm

Reedie wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:Great... than show me a home in the Bay Area that is $150,000, four bedrooms, and isn't a POS.

Four bedrooms are necessary if you have the requisite number of children.


Are you aware that the numbers one million and one hundred fifty thousand are very far apart from one another?


Yep... The median home price for a FORECLOSURE sold last month in the south bay: $805,000. That's for all forclosures, which may include 2 bedrooms and 10 bedrooms, but, still pretty expensive, if you ask me. So, yes, I do understand there is a huge difference between $1,000,000 and $150,000, but the majority of homes are much closer to the $1,000,000 number than the $150,000 number.

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FlanAl
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby FlanAl » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:34 pm

bk1 wrote:
FlanAl wrote:
the beaches are much better on the east coast...


have to take major issue with this statement: big sur, la jolla and laguna are all incredible and San Diego has more surf spots than any other city in the world.

AND can someone please explain the USC hating? and why people claim that only top 25% get biglaw. is the nlj go to schools from last year really all that off? (has the new one come out yet?)


Yes it is because that is for the class of 2009 who did oci in 2007 before the crash.


hope i'm not derailing this thread too much but it seems fairly relevant to ask didn't a whole lot of the class of 2009 get no offered or deferred? not trying to argue just trying to figure it out. I understand that OCI was probably great in 2007 but i'm not sure how that translates into all those people having jobs at graduation. THanks for the help and I hope this is useful for the OP in trying to figure out UT vs USC

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Reedie
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby Reedie » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:36 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:Yep... The median home price for a FORECLOSURE sold last month in the south bay: $805,000. That's for all forclosures, which may include 2 bedrooms and 10 bedrooms, but, still pretty expensive, if you ask me. So, yes, I do understand there is a huge difference between $1,000,000 and $150,000, but the majority of homes are much closer to the $1,000,000 number than the $150,000 number.


Bay area housing is expensive, more expensive than Houston or (better yet) Idaho. Nobody is questioning that. What they are questioning is your assertion that you can't find decent housing in the Bay Area for under a million dollars, or at any price affordable for legal professionals. So your one hundred fifty thousand dollar figure was not a very apt choice.

Good luck in the rest of the flamewar.

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ilovesf
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby ilovesf » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:36 pm

Why are you so obsessed with talking about Cupertino and the South Bay? That is such a limited view on the Bay Area. Cupertino is in the heart of Silicon Valley and not exactly representative of the whole area. And anyone who draws the East Bay line at Oakland is on crack and is probably not a local. Also why not rent a house for a couple of years while you save up money? My friend works part time doing intake at a law firm and she lives in SF and survives only on the money she earns from her part time job. Sure, she shops at Safeway and not Whole Foods, but she isn't exactly hurting.

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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby bk1 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:37 pm

FlanAl wrote:
bk1 wrote:
FlanAl wrote:
the beaches are much better on the east coast...


have to take major issue with this statement: big sur, la jolla and laguna are all incredible and San Diego has more surf spots than any other city in the world.

AND can someone please explain the USC hating? and why people claim that only top 25% get biglaw. is the nlj go to schools from last year really all that off? (has the new one come out yet?)


Yes it is because that is for the class of 2009 who did oci in 2007 before the crash.


hope i'm not derailing this thread too much but it seems fairly relevant to ask didn't a whole lot of the class of 2009 get no offered or deferred? not trying to argue just trying to figure it out. I understand that OCI was probably great in 2007 but i'm not sure how that translates into all those people having jobs at graduation. THanks for the help and I hope this is useful for the OP in trying to figure out UT vs USC

I think the graph counts deferrals as offers (even if those who got deferred eventually got no offered).

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:38 pm

Reedie wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:Yep... The median home price for a FORECLOSURE sold last month in the south bay: $805,000. That's for all forclosures, which may include 2 bedrooms and 10 bedrooms, but, still pretty expensive, if you ask me. So, yes, I do understand there is a huge difference between $1,000,000 and $150,000, but the majority of homes are much closer to the $1,000,000 number than the $150,000 number.


Bay area housing is expensive, more expensive than Houston or (better yet) Idaho. Nobody is questioning that. What they are questioning is your assertion that you can't find decent housing in the Bay Area for under a million dollars, or at any price affordable for legal professionals. So your one hundred fifty thousand dollar figure was not a very apt choice.

Good luck in the rest of the flamewar.


The $150,000 was derived from someone stating that a cousin making less than $40k has a house in the Bay Area. If you do the math, it comes to be that for a $40k salary, $150,000 is about the max house you can afford.

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FlanAl
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby FlanAl » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:43 pm

[/quote]
I think the graph counts deferrals as offers (even if those who got deferred eventually got no offered).[/quote]

I just saw that it counted deferrals but can't find out if it counts the deferrals that turned into no offers, guess that would be good to know but the new one will be out soon and it should paint a clearer picture.

notanumber
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby notanumber » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:48 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote: I'm not talking out of my ass... I grew up in Los Altos Hills.


Suddenly everything you are saying makes a lot more sense. . . .

In any case, none of this is relevant to the OP's concerns. If OP demands a suburban lifestyle with a large home, private tutors, and a husband/wife who doesn't work and wants to start acquiring those things in his/her mid-20s then OP shouldn't live in urban California. But that should have been obvious from the start.
Last edited by notanumber on Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:50 pm

I'll end my argument with this: No, it is not silly to want to work in CA. However, if you are deciding between CA and TX, and money is a major concern, your salary in TX will go farther than your salary in CA. TX has a much lower COL and no state taxes, which saves nearly 10% off the top.

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Hannibal
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby Hannibal » Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:11 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:I'll end my argument with this: No, it is not silly to want to work in CA. However, if you are deciding between CA and TX, and money is a major concern, your salary in TX will go farther than your salary in CA. TX has a much lower COL and no state taxes, which saves nearly 10% off the top.


You get what you pay for.

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ScrabbleChamp
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby ScrabbleChamp » Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:17 pm

Hannibal wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:I'll end my argument with this: No, it is not silly to want to work in CA. However, if you are deciding between CA and TX, and money is a major concern, your salary in TX will go farther than your salary in CA. TX has a much lower COL and no state taxes, which saves nearly 10% off the top.


You get what you pay for.


Agreed. You get less of your paycheck in CA because you have to pay a state income tax.

sarahh
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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby sarahh » Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:27 pm

ScrabbleChamp wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
ScrabbleChamp wrote:I'll end my argument with this: No, it is not silly to want to work in CA. However, if you are deciding between CA and TX, and money is a major concern, your salary in TX will go farther than your salary in CA. TX has a much lower COL and no state taxes, which saves nearly 10% off the top.


You get what you pay for.


Agreed. You get less of your paycheck in CA because you have to pay a state income tax.


We get that you do not think the benefits that CA offers are worth the high cost of living. That is fine. There are some of us that are okay with less house than you or with renting and feel the benfits are worth the cost. That is fine too. The questions is, how many legal jobs are available? Are the only people that can find a job in San Francisco people at the top of the class at HYSB? Is there something left over for the others?
Last edited by sarahh on Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:57 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Is it silly to want to work in California?

Postby Hannibal » Thu Feb 17, 2011 7:35 pm

My family is in the legal field, and I went on a firm tour of small offices and midlaw offices in the East Bay and SF. Most of the time it was me talking with recent grads while my Mom talked about business stuff with the managing partners. There was one guy that came to the Bay with zero ties and median grades from Wisconsin and got a job. There were quite a few people from Santa Clara and Golden Gate, USF. Most didn't talk about grades but I got the sense most were around median.

ETA: The biggest thing I got about hiring in the Bay Area: unless you went to a really strong school (Hastings, Davis, UCLA on up) or got really good grades, it's about having connections to the area or about networking. Rankings don't matter that much going down.




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