Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

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Where should I go?

Harvard
40
7%
Yale
295
53%
UChicago w/ Rubenstein
163
29%
Columbia w/ Hamilton
63
11%
 
Total votes: 561

chasgoose
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby chasgoose » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:44 am

Reinhardt wrote:I don't think pizza counts in Yale's favor when OP is also considering Chicago.


Yeah totally wrong. Admittedly I think deep dish pizza shouldn't even be called pizza.

New Haven Pizza > New York Pizza >>>>>> Chicago Pizza

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oxford_don
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby oxford_don » Fri Feb 18, 2011 12:55 am

chasgoose wrote:
Reinhardt wrote:I don't think pizza counts in Yale's favor when OP is also considering Chicago.


Yeah totally wrong. Admittedly I think deep dish pizza shouldn't even be called pizza.

New Haven Pizza > New York Pizza >>>>>> Chicago Pizza


False. Deep dish >> all other pizzas

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Entchen
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby Entchen » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:02 am

Reinhardt wrote:I don't think pizza counts in Yale's favor when OP is also considering Chicago.

GTFO. No pizza is better than New Haven pizza.

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sundance95
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby sundance95 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:06 am

Retake.

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oxford_don
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby oxford_don » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:23 am

sundance95 wrote:Retake.


TITCR, time for me to start studying again.

r6_philly
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby r6_philly » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:25 am

oxford_don wrote:
sundance95 wrote:Retake.


TITCR, time for me to start studying again.


Actually, LS may be a waste of your talents. I think if you are not gunning for like the best law scholar in the country, you can choose a more profitable career path.

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sundance95
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby sundance95 » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:27 am

oxford_don wrote:
sundance95 wrote:Retake.


TITCR, time for me to start studying again.

If you get a 179 in June, there's always October.

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oxford_don
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby oxford_don » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:48 am

Damn this is a hard decision. I have only had these options for the last 24 hours, but already my head is spinning.

About to go to sleep, but after spending the night browsing through the Yale admitted students binder, I am starting to see why people do not turn down this school...

Hey-O
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby Hey-O » Fri Feb 18, 2011 1:52 am

oxford_don wrote:Damn this is a hard decision. I have only had these options for the last 24 hours, but already my head is spinning.

About to go to sleep, but after spending the night browsing through the Yale admitted students binder, I am starting to see why people do not turn down this school...


Oooh. Dish. What's it like? Tell the story so those of use who will never see this famed binder can imagine it.

marlstone
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby marlstone » Fri Feb 18, 2011 2:49 am

I do agree that Yale's binder is much more classy than Harvard's...

oxford_don wrote:Damn this is a hard decision. I have only had these options for the last 24 hours, but already my head is spinning.

About to go to sleep, but after spending the night browsing through the Yale admitted students binder, I am starting to see why people do not turn down this school...

divinelygolden
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby divinelygolden » Sat Feb 19, 2011 10:48 am

I must say I wish I was in your position. I say Yale, whenever possible I would go to the top school because you'll have better chances at employment in whatever you decide to do.

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SullaFelix
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby SullaFelix » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:09 pm

marlstone wrote:I do agree that Yale's binder is much more classy than Harvard's...

oxford_don wrote:Damn this is a hard decision. I have only had these options for the last 24 hours, but already my head is spinning.

About to go to sleep, but after spending the night browsing through the Yale admitted students binder, I am starting to see why people do not turn down this school...

It was a pretty ballsy move to open with a writeup of the architecture.

DeepSeaLaw
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby DeepSeaLaw » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:37 pm

I chose one of H/S over a Hamilton and think that Yale actually makes more sense for most people considering it vs. a big scholarship, but I think financial specifics make your decision a little trickier. The traditional Hamilton vs. YHS debate is usually a bit oversimplified in that people tend to disregard cost of living differences, generous need-based financial aid, and family help that make it so that the debt difference is rarely $200K+ vs. $50,000 or whatever. In your case, it sounds like it probably will be. Even if you can reduce your loans through high-paying summer work, your amortized amount of repayment over ten years would be over $300,000.

In biglaw, this is going to mean that you'll be paying about a third of your take-home pay just to cover the minimum payments. If you clerk for a year, the only assistance you'll get from COAP will be $10,000 of clerkship loans at 7.5% (not forgiven if you go into biglaw afterward). This is just a ton of money. Of course, if you do transition to the government, COAP will kick in, and you'll pay a lot less (e.g., $7,500 a year on a $90,000 salary). But overall, this is a lot of cash, and it will heavily affect things like being able to start a family, buy a home, etc.

Of course, Yale offers a lot of advantages that can't be quantified. Opportunities only available to great students at Chicago are arguably in reach for most Yalies. Chicago has the most differentiated curve of any top school, whereas Yale has none. Grade reform was a huge part of my decision -- while not the only reason I chose SLS, the knowledge that not doing well in a few 1L courses will show up as a few P's and not as potentially clerkship-wrecking, below-median letter grades is very reassuring -- and Yale's system is even more forgiving. Even ending up below median at Chicago is certainly no death sentence, but it also isn't nearly as comfortable as being amorphously not-a-top student at Yale. Many Yale Law students have done very interesting things, and your classmates are important as well.

It certainly wouldn't be crazy to pick Yale -- after all, you never get a chance to re-do law school -- but since you're not bent on academia or something else that screams "YLS," I would recommend really thinking about the fiscal realities before doing so. As a general side note, I think that due to the lower cost of living, small student body, and traditionally stronger placement in academia and clerkships, the Rubenstein is a lot more attractive for students in your situation than the Hamilton. Columbia is weakest in the areas that it is very hard for Hamilton students to accept -- in talking to other recipients last year, I encountered very few who weren't wary of giving up a higher chance at academia or jobs where a prestigious clerkship is prerequisite. Although I still feel good about making my decision under my set of circumstances, part of me does wish that the Rubenstein had come along a year earlier so that I had a shot at it. I don't know if I would have taken it, but I do know that it would have been even tougher for me to turn down than the Hamilton.

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drylo
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby drylo » Sat Feb 19, 2011 3:57 pm

DeepSeaLaw wrote:Although I still feel good about making my decision under my set of circumstances, part of me does wish that the Rubenstein had come along a year two years earlier so that I had a shot at it.

The Real Jack McCoy
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby The Real Jack McCoy » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:11 pm

DeepSeaLaw wrote:I chose one of H/S over a Hamilton and think that Yale actually makes more sense for most people considering it vs. a big scholarship, but I think financial specifics make your decision a little trickier. The traditional Hamilton vs. YHS debate is usually a bit oversimplified in that people tend to disregard cost of living differences, generous need-based financial aid, and family help that make it so that the debt difference is rarely $200K+ vs. $50,000 or whatever. In your case, it sounds like it probably will be. Even if you can reduce your loans through high-paying summer work, your amortized amount of repayment over ten years would be over $300,000.

In biglaw, this is going to mean that you'll be paying about a third of your take-home pay just to cover the minimum payments. If you clerk for a year, the only assistance you'll get from COAP will be $10,000 of clerkship loans at 7.5% (not forgiven if you go into biglaw afterward). This is just a ton of money. Of course, if you do transition to the government, COAP will kick in, and you'll pay a lot less (e.g., $7,500 a year on a $90,000 salary). But overall, this is a lot of cash, and it will heavily affect things like being able to start a family, buy a home, etc.

Of course, Yale offers a lot of advantages that can't be quantified. Opportunities only available to great students at Chicago are arguably in reach for most Yalies. Chicago has the most differentiated curve of any top school, whereas Yale has none. Grade reform was a huge part of my decision -- while not the only reason I chose SLS, the knowledge that not doing well in a few 1L courses will show up as a few P's and not as potentially clerkship-wrecking, below-median letter grades is very reassuring -- and Yale's system is even more forgiving. Even ending up below median at Chicago is certainly no death sentence, but it also isn't nearly as comfortable as being amorphously not-a-top student at Yale. Many Yale Law students have done very interesting things, and your classmates are important as well.

It certainly wouldn't be crazy to pick Yale -- after all, you never get a chance to re-do law school -- but since you're not bent on academia or something else that screams "YLS," I would recommend really thinking about the fiscal realities before doing so. As a general side note, I think that due to the lower cost of living, small student body, and traditionally stronger placement in academia and clerkships, the Rubenstein is a lot more attractive for students in your situation than the Hamilton. Columbia is weakest in the areas that it is very hard for Hamilton students to accept -- in talking to other recipients last year, I encountered very few who weren't wary of giving up a higher chance at academia or jobs where a prestigious clerkship is prerequisite. Although I still feel good about making my decision under my set of circumstances, part of me does wish that the Rubenstein had come along a year earlier so that I had a shot at it. I don't know if I would have taken it, but I do know that it would have been even tougher for me to turn down than the Hamilton.


+1

DeepSeaLaw
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby DeepSeaLaw » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:16 pm

drylo wrote:
DeepSeaLaw wrote:Although I still feel good about making my decision under my set of circumstances, part of me does wish that the Rubenstein had come along a year two years earlier so that I had a shot at it.


I applied in the 2009-2010 cycle...

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yngblkgifted
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby yngblkgifted » Sat Feb 19, 2011 4:25 pm

Didn't even read your initial post, or any of the other comments. All I know is TCR is "go to Yale." HTH

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drylo
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby drylo » Sat Feb 19, 2011 6:27 pm

DeepSeaLaw wrote:
drylo wrote:
DeepSeaLaw wrote:Although I still feel good about making my decision under my set of circumstances, part of me does wish that the Rubenstein had come along a year two years earlier so that I had a shot at it.


I applied in the 2009-2010 cycle...


Yeah, I was saying for me--in the 2008-09 cycle. I understand how that was confusing, though.

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oxford_don
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby oxford_don » Mon Feb 21, 2011 7:23 pm

Not really an update, but wanted to post a funny story from today about how I may have ruined my chances at being an AUSA in Chicago...

So I email an AUSA with a motion we want to file (that I wrote) permitting a client to travel in the US while awaiting trial. We want to file the motion unopposed, so I ask whether the AUSA has any objection. He emails me back (boss is copied on all of these emails) and says hell no, we object. Boss calls the other AUSA working on the case who is a good friend and he agrees to the motion. So I go ahead and file the motion unopposed.

Within an hour of filing the motion, I get a voicemail from the AUSA who originally objected yelling at me for ignoring his email and lying about the position the government is taking with respect to this motion. He demands that I call him and explain what happened. He says that "maybe the other AUSA told you something different, but you have some explaining to do."

I tell the boss, he shoots off an angry email to the AUSA. A few angry emails later, the "hatchet has been buried" and the AUSA admitted that he was mistaken in accusing my of lying, but I am accused of exaggerating the content and tone of the voicemail.

And this guy is a young, rising star in the office. Damn, there goes that career path...

zarabenjamin
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby zarabenjamin » Fri Mar 04, 2011 7:23 pm

I am in a similar situation - Darrow at Michigan v. Rubenstein at Chicago v. HLS v. CLS v. SLS

I am leaning toward HLS...

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FuManChusco
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby FuManChusco » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:32 am

Yale Earnhardt Jr.

Ctgrapefruit
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby Ctgrapefruit » Sat Mar 05, 2011 12:42 am

Hey! Just saw this. I am from Chicago and have the exact same options as you do- wacky, huh? I am leaning towards Yale because academia is my current goal- but, if you want big law you should go by location. Chicago and Columbia are kings of their towns, respectively....pm me if you are in town and would like to talk over coffee. It is so rare to find someone in the same boat you can actually talk to in person.

Cheers!

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tgir
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby tgir » Sat Mar 05, 2011 2:04 am

The Rubenstein is awesome, but something tells me you'll end up at Yale.

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unc0mm0n1
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby unc0mm0n1 » Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:30 am

r6_philly wrote:
tkgrrett wrote:
oxford_don wrote:I am about to sound like an idiot to some people:

Why does nobody turn down Yale? Discuss.


This is a TLS myth. People turn down Yale for money fairly often.

ETA: I voted Rubenstein.


I'm most definitely going to do this. I haven't been accepted to Yale but if I do I won't be going. I'll be going to Harvard Law for free and no way will I turn down that for what people on here perceive some Yale advantage. I just can't see myself turning down that money to live in New Haven. As a side note some of the Yale students (actually mostly future Yale students) on TLS don't represent a great institution like YLS very well, at least IMO.

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oxford_don
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Re: Harvard v. Yale v. Hamilton v. Rubenstein

Postby oxford_don » Fri Mar 18, 2011 9:41 am

Just wanted to give a quick update. I am still waiting on financial aid packages from Yale/Harvard, so I am not completely certain about what the costs are going to be. Did find out that going to Chicago all my cost of living loans would be subsidized/unsubsidized stafford, which would be nice.

Went to the March Harvard ASW. Really enjoyed it and was happy with the school, but honestly I think Harvard has fallen off my list and it is coming down to Chicago/Yale. I know a lot of people predicted this, but I wanted to give Harvard a good hard look. The school was huge, impressive, almost overwhelming, but I did not get the sense that I had to go there at any cost. The swagger of the school didn't translate into the type of academic environment I am looking for. Faculty-student interaction did not seem that high.

Yale ASW is in mid-April, so nothing new there. I will be visiting to see if it is the school of my dreams.

Over the past few weeks, however, Chicago has only become a stronger contender. They have been putting me in touch with a lot of faculty and students. I had a very illuminating conversation with Brian Leiter this week about the quality of the faculty and the academic environment at Chicago. He is convinced that it is the best. He will admit that Yale is quite similar, but he does not think I am giving anything up in terms of the caliber of my legal education by going to Chicago given the money. He was also convinced about this before he went to Chicago from Texas. The guy is an expert in legal rankings. We also talked about my specific interests (philosophy and law) and Chicago has the better faculty for that. We also talked at length about academia. Lately the thought of academia has been keeping me up at night. I really want to keep that option open. Leiter has convinced me that going to Chicago the door to academia is not only open, it might be an easier route. Chicago has the pedigree for producing academics and the reputation that can get you in the door as a straight JD. It also has enough faculty that would be willing to work for me on writing projects and really amazing workshops. If I decided to pursue academia, I would be well positioned at Chicago to work with faculty that match my interests and have some completed writing projects.

Obviously this is still incomplete, but Chicago is doing a really impressive sales job and if the money turns out to be $60k in debt and $220k in debt, I am pretty sure about my decision.




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