Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

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Would you attend Michigan w/ Darrow or HLS?

Michigan (Darrow)
118
55%
Harvard
96
45%
 
Total votes: 214

notanumber
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby notanumber » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:42 pm

I faced this "problem" last year and had I not gotten into YLS I would have taken the Darrow over Harvard without a second thought. Were I 100% set on biglaw I likely would have taken the Darrow over YLS (I'm 90% sure that I want academia and it was still a difficult decision).

IMHO, the idea that Harvard will give you dramatically better chances at low probability end-game scenarios is questionable at best and certainly not worth a $150,000 bet. Especially because you want to live in Ann Arbor.

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Fresh
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby Fresh » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:48 pm

notanumber wrote:I faced this "problem" last year and had I not gotten into YLS I would have taken the Darrow over Harvard without a second thought. Were I 100% set on biglaw I likely would have taken the Darrow over YLS (I'm 90% sure that I want academia and it was still a difficult decision).

IMHO, the idea that Harvard will give you dramatically better chances at low probability end-game scenarios is questionable at best and certainly not worth a $150,000 bet. Especially because you want to live in Ann Arbor.


From 1 - 10, how happy are you with your choice? Have you second guessed it? What path do you see yourself heading down now that you're a 1L? Academia still? Thanks in advanced, your post is really helpful

notanumber
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby notanumber » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:52 pm

Fresh wrote:
notanumber wrote:I faced this "problem" last year and had I not gotten into YLS I would have taken the Darrow over Harvard without a second thought. Were I 100% set on biglaw I likely would have taken the Darrow over YLS (I'm 90% sure that I want academia and it was still a difficult decision).

IMHO, the idea that Harvard will give you dramatically better chances at low probability end-game scenarios is questionable at best and certainly not worth a $150,000 bet. Especially because you want to live in Ann Arbor.


From 1 - 10, how happy are you with your choice? Have you second guessed it? What path do you see yourself heading down now that you're a 1L? Academia still? Thanks in advanced, your post is really helpful


I deferred (why I still have time to troll TLS and something that factored into my decision). A big factor for me is also that, because I'm a poor, I expect a good amount of grant money from YLS.

When I was facing this decision last year I found it very helpful to talk with both Darrow students and YLS/HLS students who turned down Darrows. Contact the schools, they'll set you up. Much more productive than getting advice from TLS.

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thecilent
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby thecilent » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:59 pm

What if he goes to Michigan and gets below median? Will be sorta difficult to get biglaw.

Whereas if he goes to Harvard and ends up below median, he will still have a pretty good shot at biglaw.

I think your best bet is CLS with butler.

Curry

Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby Curry » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:02 pm

thecilent wrote:What if he goes to Michigan and gets below median? Will be sorta difficult to get biglaw.

Whereas if he goes to Harvard and ends up below median, he will still have a pretty good shot at biglaw.

I think your best bet is CLS with butler.


I still think the risk is worth it (at mich), given that its 160k in future earnings that he'd be giving up if he didn't take the money.

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Fresh
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby Fresh » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:03 pm

thecilent wrote:What if he goes to Michigan and gets below median? Will be sorta difficult to get biglaw.

Whereas if he goes to Harvard and ends up below median, he will still have a pretty good shot at biglaw.

I think your best bet is CLS with butler.


At 70K+/yr, I anticipate ending up with similar debt from CLS/HLS (or YLS if I'm lucky enough to get in), since I'm poor and would likely get grants from the two.

Getting below median is something to consider for sure, although it's probably more likely at HLS :?

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thecilent
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby thecilent » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:07 pm

Well this is a hard decision to ask about before you've heard back from hls about aid (esp. if you're poor).

r6_philly
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby r6_philly » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:15 pm

seespotrun wrote:Is the prospect of working at WLRK, clerking for SCOTUS, and wearing HLS hoodies worth ~$150,000 to you?


I am going to go out on a limb and add to the benefits something no one mentioned yet:

Having a better chance of sending all of your children to Harvard. I'd pay for that alone.

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kazu
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby kazu » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:22 pm

notanumber wrote:When I was facing this decision last year I found it very helpful to talk with both Darrow students and YLS/HLS students who turned down Darrows. Contact the schools, they'll set you up. Much more productive than getting advice from TLS.

+1 on this advice, you should def. contact the schools about this dilemma and have them set you up.

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Fresh
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby Fresh » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:28 pm

thecilent wrote:Well this is a hard decision to ask about before you've heard back from hls about aid (esp. if you're poor).


Kinda, but even @ max grants I'm looking at around 120k in loans (I posted >100k in original post as the presumed debt load)

kazu wrote:
notanumber wrote:When I was facing this decision last year I found it very helpful to talk with both Darrow students and YLS/HLS students who turned down Darrows. Contact the schools, they'll set you up. Much more productive than getting advice from TLS.

+1 on this advice, you should def. contact the schools about this dilemma and have them set you up.


Agreed. I have been in contact with one school about this already, and it's very very helpful.

juliachild-ish
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby juliachild-ish » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:39 pm

r6_philly wrote:
seespotrun wrote:Is the prospect of working at WLRK, clerking for SCOTUS, and wearing HLS hoodies worth ~$150,000 to you?


I am going to go out on a limb and add to the benefits something no one mentioned yet:

Having a better chance of sending all of your children to Harvard. I'd pay for that alone.


Yes and no...I mean, unless he ends up a multimillionaire and donates tons of money to Harvard, the fact that he went there is most likely not going to get his kids in. Although, since he's obviously smart, assuming genetics run true, any kids will most likely be able to get accepted to Harvard on their own merits!

If the fact of where your parents went to school were really that helpful, I think my cycle would be going differently.

To get back to the original debate, I vote for Michigan. Not simply because it's an opportunity to shed debt, but because it's a prestigious, named scholarship: the impact of having that on your resume shouldn't be ignored.

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AreJay711
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby AreJay711 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:42 pm

juliachild-ish wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
seespotrun wrote:Is the prospect of working at WLRK, clerking for SCOTUS, and wearing HLS hoodies worth ~$150,000 to you?


I am going to go out on a limb and add to the benefits something no one mentioned yet:

Having a better chance of sending all of your children to Harvard. I'd pay for that alone.


Yes and no...I mean, unless he ends up a multimillionaire and donates tons of money to Harvard, the fact that he went there is most likely not going to get his kids in. Although, since he's obviously smart, assuming genetics run true, any kids will most likely be able to get accepted to Harvard on their own merits!

If the fact of where your parents went to school were really that helpful, I think my cycle would be going differently.

To get back to the original debate, I vote for Michigan. Not simply because it's an opportunity to shed debt, but because it's a prestigious, named scholarship: the impact of having that on your resume shouldn't be ignored.


Does that really matter?

r6_philly
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby r6_philly » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:50 pm

juliachild-ish wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
seespotrun wrote:Is the prospect of working at WLRK, clerking for SCOTUS, and wearing HLS hoodies worth ~$150,000 to you?


I am going to go out on a limb and add to the benefits something no one mentioned yet:

Having a better chance of sending all of your children to Harvard. I'd pay for that alone.


Yes and no...I mean, unless he ends up a multimillionaire and donates tons of money to Harvard, the fact that he went there is most likely not going to get his kids in. Although, since he's obviously smart, assuming genetics run true, any kids will most likely be able to get accepted to Harvard on their own merits!

If the fact of where your parents went to school were really that helpful, I think my cycle would be going differently.

To get back to the original debate, I vote for Michigan. Not simply because it's an opportunity to shed debt, but because it's a prestigious, named scholarship: the impact of having that on your resume shouldn't be ignored.


You underestimate the power of UG ED and legacy applications.

ETA: I was referring to kids getting into UG, not HLS.

juliachild-ish
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby juliachild-ish » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:56 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
juliachild-ish wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
seespotrun wrote:Is the prospect of working at WLRK, clerking for SCOTUS, and wearing HLS hoodies worth ~$150,000 to you?


I am going to go out on a limb and add to the benefits something no one mentioned yet:

Having a better chance of sending all of your children to Harvard. I'd pay for that alone.


Yes and no...I mean, unless he ends up a multimillionaire and donates tons of money to Harvard, the fact that he went there is most likely not going to get his kids in. Although, since he's obviously smart, assuming genetics run true, any kids will most likely be able to get accepted to Harvard on their own merits!

If the fact of where your parents went to school were really that helpful, I think my cycle would be going differently.

To get back to the original debate, I vote for Michigan. Not simply because it's an opportunity to shed debt, but because it's a prestigious, named scholarship: the impact of having that on your resume shouldn't be ignored.


Does that really matter?


I think it might. I work at a very large law firm, and one of the things I do is manage the lawyers' bios for the website. The lawyers I know insist on having that sort of thing (a named scholarship) displayed very prominently. They seem to think it's important, about equal in importance to having been on a law review. I'm just a lowly 0L, but the lawyers I work for do take named scholarships seriously.

juliachild-ish
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby juliachild-ish » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:58 pm

r6_philly wrote:
juliachild-ish wrote:
r6_philly wrote:
seespotrun wrote:Is the prospect of working at WLRK, clerking for SCOTUS, and wearing HLS hoodies worth ~$150,000 to you?


I am going to go out on a limb and add to the benefits something no one mentioned yet:

Having a better chance of sending all of your children to Harvard. I'd pay for that alone.


Yes and no...I mean, unless he ends up a multimillionaire and donates tons of money to Harvard, the fact that he went there is most likely not going to get his kids in. Although, since he's obviously smart, assuming genetics run true, any kids will most likely be able to get accepted to Harvard on their own merits!

If the fact of where your parents went to school were really that helpful, I think my cycle would be going differently.

To get back to the original debate, I vote for Michigan. Not simply because it's an opportunity to shed debt, but because it's a prestigious, named scholarship: the impact of having that on your resume shouldn't be ignored.


You underestimate the power of UG ED and legacy applications.

ETA: I was referring to kids getting into UG, not HLS.


I agree that in UG applications, legacy plays a huge role. However, I think it helps much more to have a parent who went there for UG than for grad school. But in any case, I would still argue my original point: his kids are likely to be smart enough that they won't need a legacy boost, and so he shouldn't take that into consideration.

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jacketman03
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby jacketman03 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:03 pm

I would take the Darrow at Michigan if it were me, but I'm extremely debt-averse.

I wish I were in your situation.

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Fresh
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby Fresh » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:03 pm

quick lol @ this discussion turning to my possible future kids' genetics

No one has really talked about the institutional differences between Michigan and HLS. What about competition amongst classmates? Access to professors? Involvement with the community? Anecdotes are appreciated

rundoxierun
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby rundoxierun » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:12 pm

As someone. Who is in this exact same position I have talked to harvard students, current darrow scholar, practicing biglaw attorneys, and a dean of a Tier 3 school that I know personally(he is a yls grad too). Everyone has differing views on it and there is very little consistency. TLS is not the place to be asking this. The vast majority of ppl here have no idea what they are talking about. That's why you hear ridiculous things like "Harvard is a degree mill" and "always take yale."

The only consistent things are:
1) you are very unlikely to have big trouble paying back debt either way but obviously harvard leads to more raw debt.
2)The HLS name def. Offers benefits. Especially if you end up applying for positions in a secondary market.
3) the possibility of doing better at one school or another b/c of the student body credentials shouldn't even be considered.
4) Harvard BLSA is a very, very good organization and a super network.
5) Michigan will give you very, very good opportunities. Doing well will get you a chance at almost any firm.

Also, from talking to a few darrow scholars my understanding is that there actually isn't all that much to the darrow scholarship besides the money and a few scholarship events. FWIW, I have no idea what I am going to do if these are my two best options but for right now I have decided to get to work at gunning for big money at a school in between these two.

r6_philly
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby r6_philly » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:16 pm

juliachild-ish wrote:I agree that in UG applications, legacy plays a huge role. However, I think it helps much more to have a parent who went there for UG than for grad school. But in any case, I would still argue my original point: his kids are likely to be smart enough that they won't need a legacy boost, and so he shouldn't take that into consideration.


To follow that logic: there is also the possibility that if he is smart enough to get into both, he is smart enough to do well anywhere in any situation, so this whole debate is moot. We are listing benefits.

Plus, if all legacy kids are smart enough to get into schools, why is there a need for legacy boost? (hint, it isn't always about being genetically smart)

sarahh
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby sarahh » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:21 pm

I am facing the same decision. I talked to three people at Harvard who turned down the Darrow. None of them regretted it. They said that it was really easy for them to find summer jobs, and they thought the Harvard name helped. They also said that they did not feel that their classmates were competitive. I am sure that people at the top of the class at Michigan have basically the same opportunities as those at Harvard, but what about the people at the bottom? I do wonder how much of a boost the Darrow provides when looking for employment. I think at Harvard there would be less pressure to get top grades. Also, my husband is coming with me, and I feel it would be a lot harder for him to find a job in Ann Arbor than Boston. Also, we both were in Boston for undergrad, and we know that we like the area. I have never been to Ann Arbor. On the other hand, it is $150,000. Considering my parents' income and assets and my assets, I think it is unlikely I will get any need-based aid from Harvard. I am hoping I will have a better sense of what is the right choice after I go to Michigan's ASW.

ETA: I am also debating whether I should apply for the matching scholarship at Berkeley. We live in the Bay Area now, so going to Berkeley means my husband keeping his job and not having to rent out our condo. I feel kind of guilty asking for the money when there is a good chance I would not go even if I got it. I am pretty worried that it would be difficult to find a job from Berkeley with the San Francisco legal market being pretty tough to crack. I am also waiting on Root-Tilden-Kern at NYU.

rundoxierun
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby rundoxierun » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:34 pm

Fresh wrote:quick lol @ this discussion turning to my possible future kids' genetics

No one has really talked about the institutional differences between Michigan and HLS. What about competition amongst classmates? Access to professors? Involvement with the community? Anecdotes are appreciated

The first thing students from either school talk about is how much they enjoy the people. I've talked to four different HLS students and none of them believed hls was especially competitive(although one did criticize the "jobs" focus of the business school if you are interested in that). I've been told most professors are very accessible but there are a few exceptions just like any other school. One Harvard professor even set up a phone appointment with me and chatted for as long as I wanted. Michigan is well known to be a very collegial school so I doubt access will be an issue. Both these schools have amazing clinical programs. Michigan has an environmental clinic that does work with the nearby great lakes organizations that I'm interested in and Harvard has the WilmerHale thing, which sounds amazing. Harvard BLSA is without a doubt the strongest BLSA among the top schools and has its hands in all kinds of things in the community. I don't have much grasp of Ann Arbor or Detroit but being in the Boston area is definitely a big benefit for Harvard. One student I skyped with from Harvard was choosing between either working in consulting with one of the big major consulting firms or continuing working with some renewable energy implementation company/program he had started with some MIT students he had met while at HLS.

concurrent fork
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby concurrent fork » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:37 pm

Mich, no question. 150k + interest is still a ton of money for a biglaw associate. If you had your heart set on SCOTUS/academia/PI, then this would be a tough decision.

09042014
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby 09042014 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:38 pm

HLS doesn't prevent you from flaming out of big law after two years with substantial debt.

rundoxierun
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby rundoxierun » Tue Feb 15, 2011 3:46 pm

Desert Fox wrote:HLS doesn't prevent you from flaming out of big law after two years with substantial debt.


No. But Harvard LIPP helps out with that. The income scale on it increases att an average of about 3% annually. By the time we graduate it will cover 100% debt for anyone making less than 50k. In addition, with 150k elligible debt it will offer at least some payment assistance for anyone making up to like 105k or something like that.

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Fresh
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Re: Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS

Postby Fresh » Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:42 pm

tkgrrett wrote:Everyone has differing views on it and there is very little consistency. TLS is not the place to be asking this. The vast majority of ppl here have no idea what they are talking about. That's why you hear ridiculous things like "Harvard is a degree mill" and "always take yale."

Also, from talking to a few darrow scholars my understanding is that there actually isn't all that much to the darrow scholarship besides the money and a few scholarship events. FWIW, I have no idea what I am going to do if these are my two best options but for right now I have decided to get to work at gunning for big money at a school in between these two.


I understand that a lot of opinions on TLS are junk/uncredited, but other than that 'vast majority' there are very useful posts on this website, some of which I give credit to for putting me in the situation I am in. In this sense, supplementary TLS info. is far from useless, so there's no harm in asking.

Regarding the Darrow, what about the mentorship you receive as a Darrow Fellow? In other words, couldn't strong connections with a professor give you a solid opportunity for recommendations and more?




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