Michigan (Darrow) vs. HLS Forum

[20160810]

The 140K you save is worth years of working in big law to pay down debt.

The lost opportunity between HLS and Michigan just isn't enough, especially when you don't even know you will like law.

This is pretty much my thinking. The freedom to be able to walk away from your biglaw job if you decide it sucks is really, really valuable. I'd give YLS strong consideration if you (1.) get in and (2.) want academia, but if this were me I'd take the money at Michigan.

[CryingMonkey]

Everyone has differing views on it and there is very little consistency. TLS is not the place to be asking this. The vast majority of ppl here have no idea what they are talking about. That's why you hear ridiculous things like "Harvard is a degree mill" and "always take yale."

Also, from talking to a few darrow scholars my understanding is that there actually isn't all that much to the darrow scholarship besides the money and a few scholarship events. FWIW, I have no idea what I am going to do if these are my two best options but for right now I have decided to get to work at gunning for big money at a school in between these two.

I understand that a lot of opinions on TLS are junk/uncredited, but other than that 'vast majority' there are very useful posts on this website, some of which I give credit to for putting me in the situation I am in. In this sense, supplementary TLS info. is far from useless, so there's no harm in asking.

Regarding the Darrow, what about the mentorship you receive as a Darrow Fellow? In other words, couldn't strong connections with a professor give you a solid opportunity for recommendations and more?

My brother is on a Darrow, and I'll double-check with him but he hasn't mentioned a mentorship. That said, he does have close relations with a number of profs and people on the admin side, some of which may have been facilitated by standing out as a Darrow. I'll ask him what the deal is exactly and let y'all know.

FWIW he took Darrow over SLS and thinks it was the right decision. My experience so far has been people who took the Darrow are happy they did, and people who took the prestige school are happy they did, so it basically comes down to where you'd be comfortable. I will say, however, that most of the lawyers I've spoken with advocate taking the money.

[Fresh]

My brother is on a Darrow, and I'll double-check with him but he hasn't mentioned a mentorship. That said, he does have close relations with a number of profs and people on the admin side, some of which may have been facilitated by standing out as a Darrow. I'll ask him what the deal is exactly and let y'all know.

Thanks for double checking!

[keg411]

The 140K you save is worth years of working in big law to pay down debt.

The lost opportunity between HLS and Michigan just isn't enough, especially when you don't even know you will like law.

This is pretty much my thinking. The freedom to be able to walk away from your biglaw job if you decide it sucks is really, really valuable. I'd give YLS strong consideration if you (1.) get in and (2.) want academia, but if this were me I'd take the money at Michigan.

+1

Being able to go to a top school for no debt is an amazing opportunity.

[09042014]

The 140K you save is worth years of working in big law to pay down debt.

The lost opportunity between HLS and Michigan just isn't enough, especially when you don't even know you will like law.

This is pretty much my thinking. The freedom to be able to walk away from your biglaw job if you decide it sucks is really, really valuable. I'd give YLS strong consideration if you (1.) get in and (2.) want academia, but if this were me I'd take the money at Michigan.

And even if you do complete five years in big law and get shown the door, with darrow you'll have 160K+ more cash. That is years of savings, even on big law salary.

[northwood]

both schools are prestigeous. Harvard has the name brand- michigan is known in the industry. take the savings, and run with the darrow. You get a nice line on your resume, and if you really want to walk out of law school with 160k in debt you can buy a house the week of graduation. As for compeition, both schools will be tough. Take the money and run. it will make you much less stressed about paying off loans, and if you hate your job after 3 years, it will be much easier to do what you want to do.

[Entchen]

I vote Michigan. Because it's delightful and I will be there. And no loans will be nice.

And Arejay, I do think being able to write Darrow on your resume does look nice and will help one stand out.

[sarahh]

In regards to Michigan saving you $160,000, what if you have a spouse? If my husband cannot find a job in Ann Arbor, I won't be saving $160,000 by going to Michigan. I just don't know how hard it will be for him to find something. And I would really like for him to find something he enjoys, not just take anything because it pays the bills. He is making a big sacrifice for me. I am assuming UMich is the biggest employer in the area. I was looking at the job lisitings and it seems like he is over or underqualified for most things.

[Fresh]

In regards to Michigan saving you $160,000, what if you have a spouse? If my husband cannot find a job in Ann Arbor, I won't be saving $160,000 by going to Michigan. I just don't know how hard it will be for him to find something. And I would really like for him to find something he enjoys, not just take anything because it pays the bills. He is making a big sacrifice for me. I am assuming UMich is the biggest employer in the area. I was looking at the job lisitings and it seems like he is over or underqualified for most things.

What field does he work in? Southeastern Michigan is very commutable, so it doesn't have to be directly in Ann Arbor.

[Upton Sinclair]

As hard as it is to turn down Harvard, I'd take Michigan if I was you.

Congrats on these sick options. Awesome job.

[bhan87]

The only situations I'd consider passing up Harvard are:

1. Acceptance at Yale / Stanford and I prefer those schools
2. Hamilton fellowship at Columbia (maybe, if I really would prefer to live in NYC)

Personally I would never pass up the opportunity to go to Harvard for a Darrow at Michigan. The difference is just too big.

[sarahh]

In regards to Michigan saving you $160,000, what if you have a spouse? If my husband cannot find a job in Ann Arbor, I won't be saving $160,000 by going to Michigan. I just don't know how hard it will be for him to find something. And I would really like for him to find something he enjoys, not just take anything because it pays the bills. He is making a big sacrifice for me. I am assuming UMich is the biggest employer in the area. I was looking at the job lisitings and it seems like he is over or underqualified for most things.

What field does he work in? Southeastern Michigan is very commutable, so it doesn't have to be directly in Ann Arbor.

He is a supervisor at non-profit financial counseling agency. There is a similar agency in Ann Arbor, but I do not know how often they have openings.

[20160810]

The 140K you save is worth years of working in big law to pay down debt.

The lost opportunity between HLS and Michigan just isn't enough, especially when you don't even know you will like law.

This is pretty much my thinking. The freedom to be able to walk away from your biglaw job if you decide it sucks is really, really valuable. I'd give YLS strong consideration if you (1.) get in and (2.) want academia, but if this were me I'd take the money at Michigan.

And even if you do complete five years in big law and get shown the door, with darrow you'll have 160K+ more cash. That is years of savings, even on big law salary.

Amortize the loans, brah. You'll be saving a good bit more than $160,000.

[keg411]

In regards to Michigan saving you $160,000, what if you have a spouse? If my husband cannot find a job in Ann Arbor, I won't be saving $160,000 by going to Michigan. I just don't know how hard it will be for him to find something. And I would really like for him to find something he enjoys, not just take anything because it pays the bills. He is making a big sacrifice for me. I am assuming UMich is the biggest employer in the area. I was looking at the job lisitings and it seems like he is over or underqualified for most things.

You may be in a different position. The OP:
1) Prefers Ann Arbor to Boston; and
2) Is presumably not married (since it wasn't mentioned)

Besides, didn't you say you are in SF now? Why not try and get $$$ at Berkeley? You'd save a significant amount by both not moving and not forcing your husband to look for a new job.

[sarahh]

In regards to Michigan saving you $160,000, what if you have a spouse? If my husband cannot find a job in Ann Arbor, I won't be saving $160,000 by going to Michigan. I just don't know how hard it will be for him to find something. And I would really like for him to find something he enjoys, not just take anything because it pays the bills. He is making a big sacrifice for me. I am assuming UMich is the biggest employer in the area. I was looking at the job lisitings and it seems like he is over or underqualified for most things.

You may be in a different position. The OP:
1) Prefers Ann Arbor to Boston; and
2) Is presumably not married (since it wasn't mentioned)

Besides, didn't you say you are in SF now? Why not try and get $$$ at Berkeley? You'd save a significant amount by both not moving and not forcing your husband to look for a new job.

I just submitted the application for the matching scholarship. But I know that only a few people get it and I cannot count on it. (It also seems that the earliest they get back to people about it is late April.) And I am worried about finding a job from Berkeley.

[Fresh]

The only situations I'd consider passing up Harvard are:

1. Acceptance at Yale / Stanford and I prefer those schools
2. Hamilton fellowship at Columbia (maybe, if I really would prefer to live in NYC)

Personally I would never pass up the opportunity to go to Harvard for a Darrow at Michigan. The difference is just too big.

What differences are you referring to? A lot of people are saying the differences just aren't big enough

[rundoxierun]

The only situations I'd consider passing up Harvard are:

1. Acceptance at Yale / Stanford and I prefer those schools
2. Hamilton fellowship at Columbia (maybe, if I really would prefer to live in NYC)

Personally I would never pass up the opportunity to go to Harvard for a Darrow at Michigan. The difference is just too big.

What differences are you referring to? A lot of people are saying the differences just aren't big enough

I havent heard anything about the Darrow mentorship. From what I understand the Darrow is a scholarship, not a fellowship(which would imply research/mentorship). Im in contact with a Darrow scholar now who turned down all of HYS and will be e-mailing him later tonight for some more specific info. I'll PM you.

Some big differences from what I understand are(these are from my perspective so it might not hit your interests): Harvard owns DC(gov't work), consulting firms recruit pretty hard at HLS(and their hiring is picking up according to a few people I know), opportunity to cross-register or dual degree at HBS, easier access to firm opportunities as a 1L(Ive been told this is especially true for URMs), huge network(again, especially for URMs), better chance at elite firms/PI/in-house, name opens doors even if you dont do so hot. And of course clerkships, academia and all that jazz.

[YourCaptain]

"Ann Arbor, actually"

[trudat15]

On a resume:
HLS >>> Michigan, Darrow Scholar

With a full grant, it would be really tough to turn down HLS.

[noob]

There's been a lot of talk about the ability to "walk away" from BigLaw if you hate it with less debt if you take the Darrow. I agree. However, unless you are literally planning on sleeping 16 hrs/day, you will be looking for another job. Outside of the legal community, the difference between the Michigan / HLS brands is only magnified, and future lay employers are going to be arguably less impressed with a line that says "Darrow" relative to hiring a Harvard grad. Just my opinion.

Also, I would be MUCH more optimistic about my career prospects graduating at the median from Harvard vs. Mich.

FWIW, I am facing a similar decision ($$$$ at a "lesser" school vs. Harvard), but I didn't get the Darrow.

[drylo]

On a resume:
HLS >>> Michigan, Darrow Scholar

With a full grant, it would be really tough to turn down HLS.

Why? Isn't it true that Darrow is much more selective than HLS? (Just challenging your 0L assumption...)

[rose711]

Go to Michigan and, if you feel the need, buy yourself a thousand Harvard sweatshirts with a teeny tiny percentage of all the money you'll save.

Why is this even a question? The difference that being (relatively) debt-free will make in your life is huge - is being able to say you went to Harvard worth mortgaging your future for? You can still say you got admitted but turned Harvard down. Turning Harvard down is a special kind of super-elite prestige.

[BruceWayne]

Before the economy crashed I would have said Michigan hands down. But with the economy the way it is, and Michigan not really having one market where it's a juggernaut ( instead it's strong across multiple markets) I would go to Harvard. You have to understand that if you end up below median at Michigan multiple doors will close forever. Unfortunately, the legal community is obsessed with prestige and grades. HLS will give you MUCH more room to slip up. Below median at Michigan and below median at HLS are 2 very different worlds---particularly for a URM. Frankly, below median at HLS as a Black male is not a terrible place to be.

[AreJay711]

Go to Michigan and, if you feel the need, buy yourself a thousand Harvard sweatshirts with a teeny tiny percentage of all the money you'll save.

Why is this even a question? The difference that being (relatively) debt-free will make in your life is huge - is being able to say you went to Harvard worth mortgaging your future for? You can still say you got admitted but turned Harvard down. Turning Harvard down is a special kind of super-elite prestige.

Well the reason I qualified my answer was because there are some reasons that might make going to Harvard better like academia or coa clerkships possibly. Harvard has a very generous lrap in case he does't make big law or leaves so it isn't like Harvard would ever be a financially bad decision. The reason I would choose Michigan would just to have the extra cash coming out with a firm job -- a biglaw salary is freaking huge money without a huge loan balance hanging over your head.

[trudat15]

On a resume:
HLS >>> Michigan, Darrow Scholar

With a full grant, it would be really tough to turn down HLS.

Why? Isn't it true that Darrow is much more selective than HLS? (Just challenging your 0L assumption...)

Well, youre right that ther are fewer Darrows than HLS students, but that doesn't tell anything close to the full picture. Almost anyone with HLS numbers could have gotten some sort of Darrow (correct me if I'm wrong, but not all Darrows are full rides, right?). and I don't think that's an assumption lost on employers.
There are probably fewer Darrows than yls students, but that doesn't mean it's more prestigious.