The Case for T2

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:48 pm

adude wrote:
Cupidity wrote:te On Comps & Moot Court Skills. We all know T-14 Students think & speak more clearly?

Discount this if you want, but I got into my school at 25%LSAT/50%GPA & came out high, my friends who came in >%75's + scholarships came out below median.


Ok, this is a good point. I really don't know what T14 is like, so perhaps it is the exact same as T2 in terms of competition. This seems counterintuitive, but possible. Law school is such a different ball game. I guess the only ppl who could confirm this are those who have transfered from T2 to T14.

BarbellDreams wrote:This thread's reasoning makes me think you chose a T2 because your reasoning skills didn't lead to a t14 LSAT.


Classic switch from making actual arguments to attacking author's credibility, which is irrelevant.

jwrash wrote:You assume someone who chooses a T2 over the T14 will do well at the T2.

You assume T2 schools are less competitive.

You assume that employers view LOR from law professors at Harvard and Georgia St. equally.

You assume that a professor cannot bestow his/her "goodwill" on as many strong students as there are in his/her class.

You do not account for the fact that finding great employment is often precarious.

Just to name a few...


Yes, I made many assumptions. Every piece of writing is grounded in basic assumptions. If I explained every assumption I made it would have taken pages. My assumptions are grounded in logic, believe it or not. For example, a professor will have a hard time writing thoughtful LoR's for the larger number of strong students at a T14. I really don't think it's necessary for me to explain why this is the case. Of course, you disagree with other points I make. Feel free to make your own arguments, but pointing out that I "assume" many things is a waste of time.

Anyways, it's clear you guys are having none of this. It seems there is only one way to look at law schools on this site, hence the name "Top Law Schools." I don't want to be the buzz kill for this epic circle jerk, so have fun. I've got to study now.


The argument was statistics that you blatantly chose to ignore. Arguing for a T2 over a T14 is all fine and good when it is solely based on $$ and regional preference, but some of your reasons are laughable at best. Harvard place 60% in biglaw while your T2 places 10% at best. /thread.

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snowpeach06
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby snowpeach06 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:05 pm

I feel like you are trying to sound all fair and balanced, but basically all you are saying is that people at T2's are idiots. Even people at t2's still ranked in the top 25-30% of LSAT takers.

Your bottom arguments about $, family, location made a lot more sense to me.

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jwrash
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby jwrash » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:31 pm

adude wrote:
Cupidity wrote:te On Comps & Moot Court Skills. We all know T-14 Students think & speak more clearly?

Discount this if you want, but I got into my school at 25%LSAT/50%GPA & came out high, my friends who came in >%75's + scholarships came out below median.


Ok, this is a good point. I really don't know what T14 is like, so perhaps it is the exact same as T2 in terms of competition. This seems counterintuitive, but possible. Law school is such a different ball game. I guess the only ppl who could confirm this are those who have transfered from T2 to T14.

BarbellDreams wrote:This thread's reasoning makes me think you chose a T2 because your reasoning skills didn't lead to a t14 LSAT.


Classic switch from making actual arguments to attacking author's credibility, which is irrelevant.

jwrash wrote:You assume someone who chooses a T2 over the T14 will do well at the T2.

You assume T2 schools are less competitive.

You assume that employers view LOR from law professors at Harvard and Georgia St. equally.

You assume that a professor cannot bestow his/her "goodwill" on as many strong students as there are in his/her class.

You do not account for the fact that finding great employment is often precarious.

Just to name a few...


Yes, I made many assumptions. Every piece of writing is grounded in basic assumptions. If I explained every assumption I made it would have taken pages. My assumptions are grounded in logic, believe it or not. For example, a professor will have a hard time writing thoughtful LoR's for the larger number of strong students at a T14. I really don't think it's necessary for me to explain why this is the case. Of course, you disagree with other points I make. Feel free to make your own arguments, but pointing out that I "assume" many things is a waste of time.

Anyways, it's clear you guys are having none of this. It seems there is only one way to look at law schools on this site, hence the name "Top Law Schools." I don't want to be the buzz kill for this epic circle jerk, so have fun. I've got to study now.

Pointing out your assumptions is actually not a waste of time, given that my argument is that your assumptions are incorrect.

keg411
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby keg411 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:41 pm

snowpeach06 wrote:I feel like you are trying to sound all fair and balanced, but basically all you are saying is that people at T2's are idiots. Even people at t2's still ranked in the top 25-30% of LSAT takers.

Your bottom arguments about $, family, location made a lot more sense to me.


Some of us were well in the top 10% of test takers. And OP did well, so obviously he can justify his choice of school and staying there since he will have options. Once you own first semester, things change (of course, he still has to own second semester... but still....)

jayman6
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby jayman6 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:35 pm

Question for the T2 haters:

So you're telling me I should go to Iowa at sticker--$170k, rather than go to the University of Denver for about $60k with a top half stipulation? I find it hard to believe that a T1 in this case would be worth it.
Last edited by jayman6 on Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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jwrash
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby jwrash » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:11 pm

jayman6 wrote:Question for the T2 haters:

So you're telling me I should go to Iowa at sticker--$170k with a top third stipulation, rather than go to the University of Denver for about $60k with a top half stipulation? I find it hard to believe that a T1 in this case would be worth it.

How can there be a top third stipulation if you're paying sticker? I assume that was a typo. But anyway...

Depends on where you want to work, but in this case it would be hard to justify Iowa over Denver. Once you get outside of the top 20ish, there really isn't a lot of difference between the remainder of the schools in the top 100. I think most the argument ITT has been about choosing a T2 over a T14.

EDIT: Top half stipulation is pretty risky IMO.

jayman6
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby jayman6 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:17 pm

jwrash wrote:
jayman6 wrote:Question for the T2 haters:

So you're telling me I should go to Iowa at sticker--$170k with a top third stipulation, rather than go to the University of Denver for about $60k with a top half stipulation? I find it hard to believe that a T1 in this case would be worth it.

How can there be a top third stipulation if you're paying sticker? I assume that was a typo. But anyway...

Depends on where you want to work, but in this case it would be hard to justify Iowa over Denver. Once you get outside of the top 20ish, there really isn't a lot of difference between the remainder of the schools in the top 100. I think most the argument ITT has been about choosing a T2 over a T14.

EDIT: Top half stipulation is pretty risky IMO.


I meant to sway that if I were offered any money at Iowa it would have a top third stipulation. I'm not expecting a scholarship from there, though. So you're saying that it's not even worth going to law school unless I get into a T14? I think that's a bit ridiculous. Also, I think a top half stipulation is appropriate. If I'm not in the top half of my class I'd drop the hell out.

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jwrash
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby jwrash » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:36 pm

jayman6 wrote:
jwrash wrote:
jayman6 wrote:Question for the T2 haters:

So you're telling me I should go to Iowa at sticker--$170k with a top third stipulation, rather than go to the University of Denver for about $60k with a top half stipulation? I find it hard to believe that a T1 in this case would be worth it.

How can there be a top third stipulation if you're paying sticker? I assume that was a typo. But anyway...

Depends on where you want to work, but in this case it would be hard to justify Iowa over Denver. Once you get outside of the top 20ish, there really isn't a lot of difference between the remainder of the schools in the top 100. I think most the argument ITT has been about choosing a T2 over a T14.

EDIT: Top half stipulation is pretty risky IMO.


I meant to sway that if I were offered any money at Iowa it would have a top third stipulation. I'm not expecting a scholarship from there, though. So you're saying that it's not even worth going to law school unless I get into a T14? I think that's a bit ridiculous. Also, I think a top half stipulation is appropriate. If I'm not in the top half of my class I'd drop the hell out.

Um, no I never said anything about it not being worth going to law school if you can't go to T14...although many TLSers would argue that. I'm simply saying that it would be foolish, in nearly every situation, to choose a T2 INSTEAD OF a T14.
However, when it comes to choosing between Iowa and Denver, for example, it's best to go whichever school is an area in which you'll be comfortable living and working after graduation. Also, the farther you move away from the T14, the more important debt minimization becomes. Sticker at schools outside of the T18 or so is risky at best and financial suicide at worst.

And it's never a good idea to assume that you'll be above median. Many factors that affect your grades in law school are often precarious.

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lolschool2011
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby lolschool2011 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:40 pm

Deuce wrote:
adude wrote:It's easy to go with the rankings and choose a T1 over a T2 school. Still, there are several reasons why I chose a T2 school over T1 options.

First, job prospects. This is a lesson I learned coming out of a top undergrad school: it is easier to distinguish yourself at a less competitive school. It looks better to graduate from U of Oregon with honors, scholarships, law review, and awards, than to go to a T14 and get nothing. Many ppl on this site would disagree, but there are grads from top schools in the bottom quartile who have poor job prospects. Big law doesn't want them. Regional firms that have more connections to regional schools don't want them either. These bottom quartile graduates are just as smart and capable as those in the top 5% at T2 schools (who will likely have jobs) but because they chose a school where every student is highly competitive, they now have a less competitive resume and gpa.

Second, you will stand out to your professors at a T2. At a T14, a smart, outgoing student would be just another face in the crowd to a professor. However, at a T2, professors will not have as many strong students and those who ask incisive questions and respond intelligently will stand out more. Thus, a T2 student near the top of his class will have better LoR's than a median student at a T14 would have. A professor may also be more inclined to refer opportunities to the outstanding T2 student, while the T14 student will have to compete for the professor's goodwill.

Third, you are in a good position to create a strong local network at a T2. A T14 will allow you to network with people from across the nation who are likely to succeed. Still, when you settle down to practice law at a particular office, that national network becomes much less valuable and the local network becomes more valuable. The local network will help you gain referrals and make the transition from associate to partner. The national network may help to an extent, but it is less likely that former T14 classmates, who have moved back to their region, will refer a case on the other side of the country to you to handle long-distance.

Finally, location and $$$. I am with my family and friends. I also got a significant scholarship here. I would have paid close to full price at a T14.

The main drawback I see in attending a T2 is the lack of regional flexibility. However, you can overcome this obstacle with stellar grades, WE, or hard work practicing law at a regional firm.

Of course, there are exceptional people who will be able to distinguish themselves at T14 schools, despite the competition. If you are sure you are one of these people (receiving a big scholarship at a T14 is a good indication) then T14 is probably the better way to go.

Image

But really, I'm guessing you're wrong.


TL;DR, but tagged b/c I'd like to use this animated gif at a later time. Thank you.

concurrent fork
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby concurrent fork » Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:41 pm

So to summarize: If faced with the difficult choice between a T2 and T14 acceptance, go with the T2 and crush all the dumbs with your superior intellect. Good plan.

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98234872348
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby 98234872348 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:32 pm

adude wrote:It's easy to go with the rankings and choose a T1 over a T2 school. Still, there are several reasons why I chose a T2 school over T1 options.

First, job prospects. This is a lesson I learned coming out of a top undergrad school: it is easier to distinguish yourself at a less competitive school. It looks better to graduate from U of Oregon with honors, scholarships, law review, and awards, than to go to a T14 and get nothing. Many ppl on this site would disagree, but there are grads from top schools in the bottom quartile who have poor job prospects. Big law doesn't want them. Regional firms that have more connections to regional schools don't want them either. These bottom quartile graduates are just as smart and capable as those in the top 5% at T2 schools (who will likely have jobs) but because they chose a school where every student is highly competitive, they now have a less competitive resume and gpa.

Second, you will stand out to your professors at a T2. At a T14, a smart, outgoing student would be just another face in the crowd to a professor. However, at a T2, professors will not have as many strong students and those who ask incisive questions and respond intelligently will stand out more. Thus, a T2 student near the top of his class will have better LoR's than a median student at a T14 would have. A professor may also be more inclined to refer opportunities to the outstanding T2 student, while the T14 student will have to compete for the professor's goodwill.

Third, you are in a good position to create a strong local network at a T2. A T14 will allow you to network with people from across the nation who are likely to succeed. Still, when you settle down to practice law at a particular office, that national network becomes much less valuable and the local network becomes more valuable. The local network will help you gain referrals and make the transition from associate to partner. The national network may help to an extent, but it is less likely that former T14 classmates, who have moved back to their region, will refer a case on the other side of the country to you to handle long-distance.

Finally, location and $$$. I am with my family and friends. I also got a significant scholarship here. I would have paid close to full price at a T14.

The main drawback I see in attending a T2 is the lack of regional flexibility. However, you can overcome this obstacle with stellar grades, WE, or hard work practicing law at a regional firm.

Of course, there are exceptional people who will be able to distinguish themselves at T14 schools, despite the competition. If you are sure you are one of these people (receiving a big scholarship at a T14 is a good indication) then T14 is probably the better way to go.

OP, I am glad you did well and won the lottery. However, there are serious flaws in your reasoning.

1) It may be "easier to distinguish yourself" at a T2, but think about this. At your T2, the students at the very top of the class will get jobs. But say, oh, 10-25% of students that go to your T2 came for the same reason. That means that some of them will finish outside of the top 5%. These students will have immense trouble obtaining a well paid job. They may have trouble obtaining any employment. Therefore, by making this argument, you're actually hurting people like yourself who roll the dice thinking they can beat out the competition at they respective T2s. On the other hand, at a T14 you will certainly be with tougher competition, but employers realize that, and hire deeper into the class because of that. You can finish median at a T14 and still get a great job with passable social skills. If you finish median at a T2 you'll be lucky to snag an internship paying 9 dollars an hour with a solo practitioner.

2) If you do well, which most certainly is not guaranteed, this is true. But, if you do well at a T14, you are going to get recommendations from much more prestigious professors, who are also likely to have better connections. Saying "if I do well, my professors will be impressed by me" is not an argument that validates your decision to attend a T2.

3) This argument does not hold water. If I go to NYU wanting to practice in NYC, I can network in NY. If I go to Georgetown wanting to practice in DC, I can network in DC. You don't have to be studying in a city to network there. You can network by getting a job in the city you want to practice in after your 1L year. Guess what: at a T14, the school's reputation is going to carry you to pretty much wherever you want to go. At a T2, you are restricted to a particular region. Don't kid yourself thinking that the kid who is top 1/3 is Gtown isn't going to beat out the kid that is top 5% at the local university in the local market. People in these markets would KILL to snag T14ers; meanwhile, they have their choice of top 5%ers at your school. They always will.

4) This decision depends on your career goals and preferences. Someone who snags a job making 160k a year is not going to have trouble making their loan payments, especially if that 160k is in a secondary market where cost of living is significantly lower than NYC/DC/Chi/LA. On the other hand, if you're looking to get a job as a prosecutor in the local office, you may be better served taking the scholarship. However, many T14s have good LRAP programs, which may still make it a better decision to attend the better school. Finally, many people want adventure: to live in a new city, start anew, etc. Of course, it is nice to see your family and friends; for some people, such a support network could be vital to their success in school. But the same is not true for everyone. In addition, this argument holds no water for people who are from the areas where T14 schools are.

5) Stellar grades are not going to overcome regionalism. Top firms simply aren't interested in people who graduate from your school. In addition, firms outside of the market have no metric that they can use to evaluate you; sure, you may obtain top grades, but a firm is going to be automatically prejudiced against you as opposed to someone who graduated from a national school. I know you're a 1L wide-eyed optimist who thinks good grades can overcome this, but you'll be confronted with that reality soon enough, and you'll take a job at a regional firm. Which isn't necessarily bad, but definitely is not for everyone.

6) Finally, no one can be "sure they are one of those people. Betting on how you are going to finish in law school is a horrible decision. 1 poor exam can be the difference between top 10% and top 1%. At a T2, that is an ENORMOUS difference. At a T14, you may be out of the running for super prestigious COA SCOTUS feeder clerkships, but you're still going to get a great job.

No one should go to school thinking they will do well. It does sometimes pan out for the lucky few, but 90% of your class is not in the top 10%. There are people in your classes that had the exact same mentality you did and finished top 1/3.

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Re: The Case for T2

Postby TatteredDignity » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:03 pm

mistergoft wrote:4) This decision depends on your career goals and preferences. Someone who snags a job making 160k a year is not going to have trouble making their loan payments, especially if that 160k is in a secondary market where cost of living is significantly lower than NYC/DC/Chi/LA. On the other hand, if you're looking to get a job as a prosecutor in the local office, you may be better served taking the scholarship. However, many T14s have good LRAP programs, which may still make it a better decision to attend the better school. Finally, many people want adventure: to live in a new city, start anew, etc. Of course, it is nice to see your family and friends; for some people, such a support network could be vital to their success in school. But the same is not true for everyone. In addition, this argument holds no water for people who are from the areas where T14 schools are.


I wasn't aware that jobs paying 160 in a secondary market exist.

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Re: The Case for T2

Postby 98234872348 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:11 pm

0LNewbie wrote:
mistergoft wrote:4) This decision depends on your career goals and preferences. Someone who snags a job making 160k a year is not going to have trouble making their loan payments, especially if that 160k is in a secondary market where cost of living is significantly lower than NYC/DC/Chi/LA. On the other hand, if you're looking to get a job as a prosecutor in the local office, you may be better served taking the scholarship. However, many T14s have good LRAP programs, which may still make it a better decision to attend the better school. Finally, many people want adventure: to live in a new city, start anew, etc. Of course, it is nice to see your family and friends; for some people, such a support network could be vital to their success in school. But the same is not true for everyone. In addition, this argument holds no water for people who are from the areas where T14 schools are.


I wasn't aware that jobs paying 160 in a secondary market exist.

I think most people would consider Houston/Dallas/Miami secondary markets.

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TatteredDignity
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby TatteredDignity » Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:19 pm

mistergoft wrote:
0LNewbie wrote:
mistergoft wrote:4) This decision depends on your career goals and preferences. Someone who snags a job making 160k a year is not going to have trouble making their loan payments, especially if that 160k is in a secondary market where cost of living is significantly lower than NYC/DC/Chi/LA. On the other hand, if you're looking to get a job as a prosecutor in the local office, you may be better served taking the scholarship. However, many T14s have good LRAP programs, which may still make it a better decision to attend the better school. Finally, many people want adventure: to live in a new city, start anew, etc. Of course, it is nice to see your family and friends; for some people, such a support network could be vital to their success in school. But the same is not true for everyone. In addition, this argument holds no water for people who are from the areas where T14 schools are.


I wasn't aware that jobs paying 160 in a secondary market exist.

I think most people would consider Houston/Dallas/Miami secondary markets.


That's fair.

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Re: The Case for T2

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:00 pm

I just wanted to stop by and say this is almost definitely the dumbest and worst reasoned serious(at least Im assuming its serious) post on TLS. There are definitely reasons to choose Tier 2 schools over a T14 but they arent the ones OP gave.

If I was a mod I would ban the OP.
Last edited by rundoxierun on Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: The Case for T2

Postby DeeCee » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:04 pm

tkgrrett wrote:I just wanted to stop by and say this is almost definitely the dumbest and worse reasoned serious(at least Im assuming its serious) post on TLS. There are definitely reasons to choose Tier 2 schools over a T14 but they arent the ones OP gave.

If I was a mod I would ban the OP.


damn......burn.

Aside from family and money reasons, there's not much reason to go to a T2 over T1, or in the OPs case, NOT transfer from T2 to a top 6 school. Saying you'll have slack classmates and therefore will rise to the top is not a good reason....
Last edited by DeeCee on Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

adude
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby adude » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:11 pm

mistergoft wrote:OP, I am glad you did well and won the lottery. However, there are serious flaws in your reasoning.

1) It may be "easier to distinguish yourself" at a T2, but think about this. At your T2, the students at the very top of the class will get jobs. But say, oh, 10-25% of students that go to your T2 came for the same reason. That means that some of them will finish outside of the top 5%. These students will have immense trouble obtaining a well paid job. They may have trouble obtaining any employment. Therefore, by making this argument, you're actually hurting people like yourself who roll the dice thinking they can beat out the competition at they respective T2s. On the other hand, at a T14 you will certainly be with tougher competition, but employers realize that, and hire deeper into the class because of that. You can finish median at a T14 and still get a great job with passable social skills. If you finish median at a T2 you'll be lucky to snag an internship paying 9 dollars an hour with a solo practitioner.

2) If you do well, which most certainly is not guaranteed, this is true. But, if you do well at a T14, you are going to get recommendations from much more prestigious professors, who are also likely to have better connections. Saying "if I do well, my professors will be impressed by me" is not an argument that validates your decision to attend a T2.

3) This argument does not hold water. If I go to NYU wanting to practice in NYC, I can network in NY. If I go to Georgetown wanting to practice in DC, I can network in DC. You don't have to be studying in a city to network there. You can network by getting a job in the city you want to practice in after your 1L year. Guess what: at a T14, the school's reputation is going to carry you to pretty much wherever you want to go. At a T2, you are restricted to a particular region. Don't kid yourself thinking that the kid who is top 1/3 is Gtown isn't going to beat out the kid that is top 5% at the local university in the local market. People in these markets would KILL to snag T14ers; meanwhile, they have their choice of top 5%ers at your school. They always will.

4) This decision depends on your career goals and preferences. Someone who snags a job making 160k a year is not going to have trouble making their loan payments, especially if that 160k is in a secondary market where cost of living is significantly lower than NYC/DC/Chi/LA. On the other hand, if you're looking to get a job as a prosecutor in the local office, you may be better served taking the scholarship. However, many T14s have good LRAP programs, which may still make it a better decision to attend the better school. Finally, many people want adventure: to live in a new city, start anew, etc. Of course, it is nice to see your family and friends; for some people, such a support network could be vital to their success in school. But the same is not true for everyone. In addition, this argument holds no water for people who are from the areas where T14 schools are.

5) Stellar grades are not going to overcome regionalism. Top firms simply aren't interested in people who graduate from your school. In addition, firms outside of the market have no metric that they can use to evaluate you; sure, you may obtain top grades, but a firm is going to be automatically prejudiced against you as opposed to someone who graduated from a national school. I know you're a 1L wide-eyed optimist who thinks good grades can overcome this, but you'll be confronted with that reality soon enough, and you'll take a job at a regional firm. Which isn't necessarily bad, but definitely is not for everyone.

6) Finally, no one can be "sure they are one of those people. Betting on how you are going to finish in law school is a horrible decision. 1 poor exam can be the difference between top 10% and top 1%. At a T2, that is an ENORMOUS difference. At a T14, you may be out of the running for super prestigious COA SCOTUS feeder clerkships, but you're still going to get a great job.

No one should go to school thinking they will do well. It does sometimes pan out for the lucky few, but 90% of your class is not in the top 10%. There are people in your classes that had the exact same mentality you did and finished top 1/3.


Unlike you, most of the above posters seem to have difficulty being civil. It makes me wonder how they will survive a law firm setting, which requires a thicker skin than TLS forums do. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. Although you make the same fallacy and discredit me personally ("1L wide-eyed optimist"), you also make some good points that weighed heavily on my mind a few weeks ago when I was thinking about transferring. Nevertheless, I think my arguments still "hold water."

The main question is which law school affords you the most opportunity for the price you are paying.

First, we have to determine how much opportunity is available for a competitive student at T14 and T2 schools. Most people will say T14 over T2 simply because a greater percentage of T14 students get jobs. However, you acknowledge that a T2 may be less competitive. Still, you say that 10-25% of students may go to my T2 for this reason and this will add to the competition. I don't think that's the case. Most of the students at my school could not get into a T1. In fact, there is a cheaper T1 in the same city that most of the students here would have gone to had they been accepted. I would say less than 5% of the people here had T1 options. In other words, I am competing with fewer highly qualified students than I would be at a T14.

Unfortunately, when you factor in the uncertainty of doing well at law exams, this all just comes down to assertions and guesswork. We cannot know whether it is harder to get top 5% at a T2, top 20% at a T1, or top 40% at a T14. Even transfer students may not have a good idea of this, since they only did the 1L rat race at one school. You say it's still better to attend a top school because there's no guarantee you will do well at a T2. I say that it's more likely you will excel at a T2 with less competition.

Second, we look at how much you are paying for the opportunity in the first place. One thing we know with certainty is that T14 will inevitably cost more than T2, since T2 will give $$$ for competitive students. This means at a T2 you will have to pay less (possibly nothing) to have an opportunity at pursuing a legal career. Once again, we don't know whether the increased cost of a T14 is worth it for the larger number of jobs available to T14 grads because it may be more difficult to do well there.

In the end, I would rather be paying much less for what I see as a similar chance at getting a job. So I agree with this:
VictrixRapax wrote:The good ones make money. Doesn't matter if they graduated from Yale or Gonzaga.

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20160810
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby 20160810 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:12 pm

Come back with a firm job from 2L OCI and I'll listen.

rundoxierun
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby rundoxierun » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:24 pm

adude wrote:Unlike you, most of the above posters seem to have difficulty being civil. It makes me wonder how they will survive a law firm setting, which requires a thicker skin than TLS forums do. Thanks for the thoughtful responses. Although you make the same fallacy and discredit me personally ("1L wide-eyed optimist"), you also make some good points that weighed heavily on my mind a few weeks ago when I was thinking about transferring. Nevertheless, I think my arguments still "hold water."

The main question is which law school affords you the most opportunity for the price you are paying.

First, we have to determine how much opportunity is available for a competitive student at T14 and T2 schools. Most people will say T14 over T2 simply because a greater percentage of T14 students get jobs. However, you acknowledge that a T2 may be less competitive. Still, you say that 10-25% of students may go to my T2 for this reason and this will add to the competition. I don't think that's the case. Most of the students at my school could not get into a T1. In fact, there is a cheaper T1 in the same city that most of the students here would have gone to had they been accepted. I would say less than 5% of the people here had T1 options. In other words, I am competing with fewer highly qualified students than I would be at a T14.

Unfortunately, when you factor in the uncertainty of doing well at law exams, this all just comes down to assertions and guesswork. We cannot know whether it is harder to get top 5% at a T2, top 20% at a T1, or top 40% at a T14. Even transfer students may not have a good idea of this, since they only did the 1L rat race at one school. You say it's still better to attend a top school because there's no guarantee you will do well at a T2. I say that it's more likely you will excel at a T2 with less competition.

Second, we look at how much you are paying for the opportunity in the first place. One thing we know with certainty is that T14 will inevitably cost more than T2, since T2 will give $$$ for competitive students. This means at a T2 you will have to pay less (possibly nothing) to have an opportunity at pursuing a legal career. Once again, we don't know whether the increased cost of a T14 is worth it for the larger number of jobs available to T14 grads because it may be more difficult to do well there.

In the end, I would rather be paying much less for what I see as a similar chance at getting a job. So I agree with this:
VictrixRapax wrote:The good ones make money. Doesn't matter if they graduated from Yale or Gonzaga.


This is blowing my mind. So what you are saying is that we dont know anything b/c of uncertainty and the fact that no one can graduate from both schools.. but b/c you said that its more likely to get top 5% at a T2 than top 50-65% at a T14 we are supposed to take your word for it and buck the trend.

Not to mention that you are forgetting the two biggest hurdle for most T2 students(even the top 5%) in getting hired at top firms. Getting them to actually read your resume and then actually give you an interview.

ETA: Just so you know.. I go to an undergrad with a TTT law school and know people in the top 10%. Only 1 of them is getting a job that a median T14 grad would even try to compete for.

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Re: The Case for T2

Postby 98234872348 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:27 pm

adude wrote:In the end, I would rather be paying much less for what I see as a similar chance at getting a job. So I agree with this:

I would like to say that calling you a wide eyed 1L optimist was a comment I made after hearing you make assertions like this. This is simply not true. At all. The opportunities that are available to a student at a T14 as compared to a T2 are exponentially more abundant. At a T2 you have, at best, a 5% chance of getting a high paying job out of OCI. Out of a T14, it's more like a 50% chance. That is not a similar chance.

Certainly, you have a better chance of graduating higher in your class at a T2 than at a T14, but that fact alone does not make it a good or even reasonable decision to attend it.

adude
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby adude » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:28 pm

SBL wrote:Come back with a firm job from 2L OCI and I'll listen.


In the last few weeks, I've had seven interviews with NLJ 250 firms for SA positions and regional firms that pay the same. I've also had an interview for an internship w/ a fed dist judge. I'll let you know when I hear back from these. Still, I can't see how T1 could offer much more opportunity than that. In fact, had I gone to T1, I wonder if I would have had this many callbacks, since I probably would not have done as well.

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Re: The Case for T2

Postby keg411 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:30 pm

SBL wrote:Come back with a firm job from 2L OCI and I'll listen.


This. Like OP, I "won the lottery" at my T2 first semester and I'm still terrified about striking out at OCI (whether I get into T14's as a transfer or not).

Also, mistergoft, do you regret not transferring? UF isn't a T2, but I'd say the employment prospects are pretty similar.

adude
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby adude » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:30 pm

mistergoft wrote:
adude wrote:In the end, I would rather be paying much less for what I see as a similar chance at getting a job. So I agree with this:

I would like to say that calling you a wide eyed 1L optimist was a comment I made after hearing you make assertions like this. This is simply not true. At all. The opportunities that are available to a student at a T14 as compared to a T2 are exponentially more abundant. At a T2 you have, at best, a 5% chance of getting a high paying job out of OCI. Out of a T14, it's more like a 50% chance. That is not a similar chance.


This is an oversimplification. Had you read the rest of my post you would have seen why I came to that conclusion.

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Re: The Case for T2

Postby patrickd139 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:33 pm

adude wrote:
SBL wrote:Come back with a firm job from 2L OCI and I'll listen.


In the last few weeks, I've had seven interviews with NLJ 250 firms for SA positions and regional firms that pay the same. I've also had an interview for an internship w/ a fed dist judge. I'll let you know when I hear back from these. Still, I can't see how T1 could offer much more opportunity than that. In fact, had I gone to T1, I wonder if I would have had this many callbacks, since I probably would not have done as well.

SBL wrote:Come back with a firm job from 2L OCI and I'll listen.

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Re: The Case for T2

Postby 98234872348 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:34 pm

keg411 wrote:
SBL wrote:Come back with a firm job from 2L OCI and I'll listen.


This. Like OP, I "won the lottery" at my T2 first semester and I'm still terrified about striking out at OCI (whether I get into T14's as a transfer or not).

Also, mistergoft, do you regret not transferring? UF isn't a T2, but I'd say the employment prospects are pretty similar.

Talking about this would require me to reveal a lot of personal info, so I'd rather not do it on the general boards, but I'll PM you.




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