The Case for T2

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adude
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The Case for T2

Postby adude » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:55 am

It's easy to go with the rankings and choose a T1 over a T2 school. Still, there are several reasons why I chose a T2 school over T1 options.

First, job prospects. This is a lesson I learned coming out of a top undergrad school: it is easier to distinguish yourself at a less competitive school. It looks better to graduate from U of Oregon with honors, scholarships, law review, and awards, than to go to a T14 and get nothing. Many ppl on this site would disagree, but there are grads from top schools in the bottom quartile who have poor job prospects. Big law doesn't want them. Regional firms that have more connections to regional schools don't want them either. These bottom quartile graduates are just as smart and capable as those in the top 5% at T2 schools (who will likely have jobs) but because they chose a school where every student is highly competitive, they now have a less competitive resume and gpa.

Second, you will stand out to your professors at a T2. At a T14, a smart, outgoing student would be just another face in the crowd to a professor. However, at a T2, professors will not have as many strong students and those who ask incisive questions and respond intelligently will stand out more. Thus, a T2 student near the top of his class will have better LoR's than a median student at a T14 would have. A professor may also be more inclined to refer opportunities to the outstanding T2 student, while the T14 student will have to compete for the professor's goodwill.

Third, you are in a good position to create a strong local network at a T2. A T14 will allow you to network with people from across the nation who are likely to succeed. Still, when you settle down to practice law at a particular office, that national network becomes much less valuable and the local network becomes more valuable. The local network will help you gain referrals and make the transition from associate to partner. The national network may help to an extent, but it is less likely that former T14 classmates, who have moved back to their region, will refer a case on the other side of the country to you to handle long-distance.

Finally, location and $$$. I am with my family and friends. I also got a significant scholarship here. I would have paid close to full price at a T14.

The main drawback I see in attending a T2 is the lack of regional flexibility. However, you can overcome this obstacle with stellar grades, WE, or hard work practicing law at a regional firm.

Of course, there are exceptional people who will be able to distinguish themselves at T14 schools, despite the competition. If you are sure you are one of these people (receiving a big scholarship at a T14 is a good indication) then T14 is probably the better way to go.
Last edited by adude on Mon Feb 14, 2011 1:35 am, edited 2 times in total.

jdhakert
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby jdhakert » Sat Feb 12, 2011 7:25 am

adude wrote:It's easy to go with the rankings and choose a T1 over a T2 school. Still, there are several reasons why I chose a T2 school over T1 options.

First, job prospects. This is a lesson I learned coming out of a top undergrad school: it is easier to distinguish yourself at a less competitive school. It looks better to graduate from U of Oregon with honors, scholarships, law review, and awards, than to go to a T14 and get nothing. Many ppl on this site would disagree, but there are grads from top schools in the bottom quartile who have poor job prospects. Big law doesn't want them. Regional firms that have more connections to regional schools don't want them either. These bottom quartile graduates are just as smart and capable as those in the top 5% at T2 schools (who will likely have jobs) but because they chose a school where every student is highly competitive, they now have a less competitive resume and gpa.

Second, you will stand out to your professors at a T2. At a T14, a smart, outgoing student would be just another face in the crowd to a professor. However, at a T2, professors will not have as many strong students and those who ask incisive questions and respond intelligently will stand out more. Thus, a T2 student near the top of his class will have better LoR's than a median student at a T14 would have. A professor may also be more inclined to refer opportunities to the outstanding T2 student, while the T14 student will have to compete for the professor's goodwill.

Third, you are in a good position to create a strong local network at a T2. A T14 will allow you to network with people from across the nation who are likely to succeed. Still, when you settle down to practice law at a particular office, that national network becomes much less valuable and the local network becomes more valuable. The local network will help you gain referrals and make the transition from associate to partner. The national network may help to an extent, but it is less likely that former T14 classmates, who have moved back to their region, will refer a case on the other side of the country to you to handle long-distance.

Finally, location and $$$. I am with my family and friends. I also got a significant scholarship here. I would have paid close to full price at a T14.

The main drawback I see in attending a T2 is the lack of regional flexibility. However, you can overcome this obstacle with stellar grades, WE, or hard work practicing law at a regional firm.

Of course, there are exceptional people who will be able to distinguish themselves at T14 schools, despite the competition. If you are sure you are one of these people (receiving a big scholarship at a T14 is a good indication) then T14 is probably the better way to go.



Are you a law student or a 0L?

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jwrash
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby jwrash » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:25 pm

OP, your line of reasoning in nearly every argument is hideous.

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ggocat
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby ggocat » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:35 pm

jdhakert wrote:Are you a law student or a 0L?

OP is a 1L.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:40 pm

When a hiring partner looks at 2 resumes and one says "Harvard" and another one says "(Insert T2)", the former will certainly distinguish himself from the latter. THATS the only type of distinguishing you should care about as a law student.

socraticmethodman
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby socraticmethodman » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:41 pm

OP, I don't understand the point of this thread? Are you trying to convince people that going to a T2 school is a good idea, or are you trying to defend your decision to attend a T2 school?

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Helmholtz
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby Helmholtz » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:41 pm

adude wrote:It's easy to go with the rankings and choose a T1 over a T2 school. Still, there are several reasons why I chose a T2 school over T1 options.

First, job prospects. This is a lesson I learned coming out of a top undergrad school: it is easier to distinguish yourself at a less competitive school. It looks better to graduate from U of Oregon with honors, scholarships, law review, and awards, than to go to a T14 and get nothing. Many ppl on this site would disagree, but there are grads from top schools in the bottom quartile who have poor job prospects. Big law doesn't want them. Regional firms that have more connections to regional schools don't want them either. These bottom quartile graduates are just as smart and capable as those in the top 5% at T2 schools (who will likely have jobs) but because they chose a school where every student is highly competitive, they now have a less competitive resume and gpa.

Second, you will stand out to your professors at a T2. At a T14, a smart, outgoing student would be just another face in the crowd to a professor. However, at a T2, professors will not have as many strong students and those who ask incisive questions and respond intelligently will stand out more. Thus, a T2 student near the top of his class will have better LoR's than a median student at a T14 would have. A professor may also be more inclined to refer opportunities to the outstanding T2 student, while the T14 student will have to compete for the professor's goodwill.

Third, you are in a good position to create a strong local network at a T2. A T14 will allow you to network with people from across the nation who are likely to succeed. Still, when you settle down to practice law at a particular office, that national network becomes much less valuable and the local network becomes more valuable. The local network will help you gain referrals and make the transition from associate to partner. The national network may help to an extent, but it is less likely that former T14 classmates, who have moved back to their region, will refer a case on the other side of the country to you to handle long-distance.

Finally, location and $$$. I am with my family and friends. I also got a significant scholarship here. I would have paid close to full price at a T14.

The main drawback I see in attending a T2 is the lack of regional flexibility. However, you can overcome this obstacle with stellar grades, WE, or hard work practicing law at a regional firm.

Of course, there are exceptional people who will be able to distinguish themselves at T14 schools, despite the competition. If you are sure you are one of these people (receiving a big scholarship at a T14 is a good indication) then T14 is probably the better way to go.


tl;dr

Be more succinct, thanks.

adude
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby adude » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:23 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:When a hiring partner looks at 2 resumes and one says "Harvard" and another one says "(Insert T2)", the former will certainly distinguish himself from the latter. THATS the only type of distinguishing you should care about as a law student.


This doesn't address my point that a T14 grad w/o any distinctions will be passed over for a T2 grad w/ law review, honors, scholarships, etc. In the secondary market I'm in, law firms will give a top grad from my school the job over a median Harvard student. Certain top schools actually have a stigma in this market that makes it difficult for them to find jobs.

jwrash wrote:OP, your line of reasoning in nearly every argument is hideous


I invite you to help me improve my reasoning and look forward to enlightenment.

socraticmethodman wrote:OP, I don't understand the point of this thread? Are you trying to convince people that going to a T2 school is a good idea, or are you trying to defend your decision to attend a T2 school?


A little of both. I think it's worthwhile just to point out that the predominant line of thinking on this site is not flawless. It's easy for people to get sucked into the rankings and not think for themselves.

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patrickd139
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby patrickd139 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:36 pm

adude wrote:
BarbellDreams wrote:When a hiring partner looks at 2 resumes and one says "Harvard" and another one says "(Insert T2)", the former will certainly distinguish himself from the latter. THATS the only type of distinguishing you should care about as a law student.


This doesn't address my point that a T14 grad w/o any distinctions will be passed over for a T2 grad w/ law review, honors, scholarships, etc. In the secondary market I'm in, law firms will give a top grad from my school the job over a median Harvard student. Certain top schools actually have a stigma in this market that makes it difficult for them to find jobs.
Wrong. "HLS" at the top of the resume distinguishes that law student. Congrats on being in a job market which defies the statistics. Job markets that defy statistics do not define generalizations.


jwrash wrote:OP, your line of reasoning in nearly every argument is hideous


I invite you to help me improve my reasoning and look forward to enlightenment.
Here's one: you assume people making the choice between a T2 and a T14 can do well at the T2.

socraticmethodman wrote:OP, I don't understand the point of this thread? Are you trying to convince people that going to a T2 school is a good idea, or are you trying to defend your decision to attend a T2 school?


A little of both. I think it's worthwhile just to point out that the predominant line of thinking on this site is not flawless. It's easy for people to get sucked into the rankings and not think for themselves.
This is a site full of people who are either law students or attorneys who consciously make the effort to give advice that is general in nature. Since knowing whether you're going to be at the top (or median, or bottom) of at T2 is literally impossible before attending, prospective logic says go to the T14 every time.

imbored25
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby imbored25 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:41 pm

dude your just wrong

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jwrash
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby jwrash » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:53 pm

1) The top schools provide the best job prospects. Period. "Job prospects" is definitely not a reason to choose a T2 over T14.

--LinkRemoved--

http://www.law.com/jsp/nlj/PubArticleNL ... hbxlogin=1

2) The difference between T2 and T14 is that you don't have to be in the top 10% at Columbia, for example, to "stand out." See employment data. A median student at Columbia will have no problem finding a great job, whereas at a T2 there is a good chance that a median student will be unemployed.

3) This entire paragraph makes no sense at all. People don't make partner because of a strong local alumni network. Making partner is based almost entirely on the quality (or amount) of work you do.

The only way anyone would advise you to go to a T2 over the T14 is with full tuition + stipend. And even then, many people would still advise against foregoing the T14. It's all about jobs, baby.

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jwrash
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby jwrash » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:04 pm

A few examples of your errors in reasoning:

You assume someone who chooses a T2 over the T14 will do well at the T2.

You assume T2 schools are less competitive.

You assume that employers view LOR from law professors at Harvard and Georgia St. equally.

You assume that a professor cannot bestow his/her "goodwill" on as many strong students as there are in his/her class.

You do not account for the fact that finding great employment is often precarious.

Just to name a few...

EDIT: Patrickd beat me to one of OP's errors in reasoning. To him be the credit for my first point. :)

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BarbellDreams
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby BarbellDreams » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:13 pm

This thread's reasoning makes me think you chose a T2 because your reasoning skills didn't lead to a t14 LSAT.

You just combined a top 5% T2 with law review, honors and mock trial/moot court with a below median at Harvard who has nothing. Your assumption is that everyone at the T2 can get those on their resume when in reality they cant. I agree that in some regional markets a person with those stats will be chosen over the Harvard grad, but by going to the t14 you are not banking on being top 5% and law review, by going to a T2 and, like you do, saying that you can compete with t14 grads you basically HAVE to have all that on your resume to stand a chance.

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Cupidity
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby Cupidity » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:17 pm

There isn't much a change in difficulty between lower ranked schools and higher ones. Just because you "Got into Georgetown" but chose to go to American, does not ensure or even loosely correlate w/ your grades, let alone your ability to do well at things like Law Review Write On Comps & Moot Court Skills. We all know T-14 Students think & speak more clearly?

Discount this if you want, but I got into my school at 25%LSAT/50%GPA & came out high, my friends who came in >%75's + scholarships came out below median.

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Deuce
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby Deuce » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:21 pm

adude wrote:It's easy to go with the rankings and choose a T1 over a T2 school. Still, there are several reasons why I chose a T2 school over T1 options.

First, job prospects. This is a lesson I learned coming out of a top undergrad school: it is easier to distinguish yourself at a less competitive school. It looks better to graduate from U of Oregon with honors, scholarships, law review, and awards, than to go to a T14 and get nothing. Many ppl on this site would disagree, but there are grads from top schools in the bottom quartile who have poor job prospects. Big law doesn't want them. Regional firms that have more connections to regional schools don't want them either. These bottom quartile graduates are just as smart and capable as those in the top 5% at T2 schools (who will likely have jobs) but because they chose a school where every student is highly competitive, they now have a less competitive resume and gpa.

Second, you will stand out to your professors at a T2. At a T14, a smart, outgoing student would be just another face in the crowd to a professor. However, at a T2, professors will not have as many strong students and those who ask incisive questions and respond intelligently will stand out more. Thus, a T2 student near the top of his class will have better LoR's than a median student at a T14 would have. A professor may also be more inclined to refer opportunities to the outstanding T2 student, while the T14 student will have to compete for the professor's goodwill.

Third, you are in a good position to create a strong local network at a T2. A T14 will allow you to network with people from across the nation who are likely to succeed. Still, when you settle down to practice law at a particular office, that national network becomes much less valuable and the local network becomes more valuable. The local network will help you gain referrals and make the transition from associate to partner. The national network may help to an extent, but it is less likely that former T14 classmates, who have moved back to their region, will refer a case on the other side of the country to you to handle long-distance.

Finally, location and $$$. I am with my family and friends. I also got a significant scholarship here. I would have paid close to full price at a T14.

The main drawback I see in attending a T2 is the lack of regional flexibility. However, you can overcome this obstacle with stellar grades, WE, or hard work practicing law at a regional firm.

Of course, there are exceptional people who will be able to distinguish themselves at T14 schools, despite the competition. If you are sure you are one of these people (receiving a big scholarship at a T14 is a good indication) then T14 is probably the better way to go.

Image

But really, I'm guessing you're wrong.

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VictrixRapax
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby VictrixRapax » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:22 pm

The good ones make money. Doesn't matter if they graduated from Yale or Gonzaga.

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prezidentv8
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby prezidentv8 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:24 pm

adude wrote:location and $$$. I am with my family and friends. I also got a significant scholarship here.

I give you credit for this part but nothing else OP.

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Deuce
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby Deuce » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:25 pm

VictrixRapax wrote:Doesn't matter if they graduated from Yale or Gonzaga.

Image

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SisyphusHappy
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby SisyphusHappy » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:48 pm

//I also got a significant scholarship here. I would have paid close to full price at a T14.//

Something doesn't add up. I can't seem to break into T14, but have $$$$ at top 20. What kind of numbers give you only a "significant" scholly at T2 and partial scholly at T14?

Sounds like OP doesn't have numbers for T14 and is trying to rationalize.

adude
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby adude » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:56 pm

Cupidity wrote:te On Comps & Moot Court Skills. We all know T-14 Students think & speak more clearly?

Discount this if you want, but I got into my school at 25%LSAT/50%GPA & came out high, my friends who came in >%75's + scholarships came out below median.


Ok, this is a good point. I really don't know what T14 is like, so perhaps it is the exact same as T2 in terms of competition. This seems counterintuitive, but possible. Law school is such a different ball game. I guess the only ppl who could confirm this are those who have transfered from T2 to T14.

BarbellDreams wrote:This thread's reasoning makes me think you chose a T2 because your reasoning skills didn't lead to a t14 LSAT.


Classic switch from making actual arguments to attacking author's credibility, which is irrelevant.

jwrash wrote:You assume someone who chooses a T2 over the T14 will do well at the T2.

You assume T2 schools are less competitive.

You assume that employers view LOR from law professors at Harvard and Georgia St. equally.

You assume that a professor cannot bestow his/her "goodwill" on as many strong students as there are in his/her class.

You do not account for the fact that finding great employment is often precarious.

Just to name a few...


Yes, I made many assumptions. Every piece of writing is grounded in basic assumptions. If I explained every assumption I made it would have taken pages. My assumptions are grounded in logic, believe it or not. For example, a professor will have a hard time writing thoughtful LoR's for the larger number of strong students at a T14. I really don't think it's necessary for me to explain why this is the case. Of course, you disagree with other points I make. Feel free to make your own arguments, but pointing out that I "assume" many things is a waste of time.

Anyways, it's clear you guys are having none of this. It seems there is only one way to look at law schools on this site, hence the name "Top Law Schools." I don't want to be the buzz kill for this epic circle jerk, so have fun. I've got to study now.

vicuna
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby vicuna » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:02 pm

If you're so enthralled with your Tier 2 school, then why did you want to transfer to the T6 less than a month ago?

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=144648&p=3868826#p3868826

adude
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby adude » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:05 pm

vicuna wrote:If you're so enthralled with your Tier 2 school, then why did you want to transfer to the T6 less than a month ago?


I did consider transferring. Changed my mind for the reasons I posted in this thread.

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DeeCee
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby DeeCee » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:07 pm

adude wrote:
vicuna wrote:If you're so enthralled with your Tier 2 school, then why did you want to transfer to the T6 less than a month ago?


Nice catch. I considered transferring. Changed my mind for the reasons I posted in this thread.


No offense, but you should probably transfer if that's still an option. It seems like you're a bit hung up on your school's status, since you posted this without someone asking you about it.

Obviously I'm not in your situation, but I can't think of a reason NOT to transfer to a top 6 school, unless you're trying to get out debt-free and do PI or something where big debt will be a problem.

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patrickd139
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby patrickd139 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:08 pm

adude wrote:Classic switch from making actual arguments to attacking author's credibility, which is irrelevant.

Classic switch from making actual arguments to..umm...not...making actual arguments?

adude wrote:Yes, I made many assumptions. Every piece of writing is grounded in basic assumptions. If I explained every assumption I made it would have taken pages.

Yet you did write a huge post and still didn't explain your assumptions.

adude wrote:My assumptions are grounded in logic, believe it or not.

Yes. Bad logic.

adude wrote:For example, a professor will have a hard time writing thoughtful LoR's for the larger number of strong students at a T14.

Lawl. You realize T14s have some of the best faculty-student ratios in the country, yes?

adude wrote:Feel free to make your own arguments, but pointing out that I "assume" many things is a waste of time.

It's not that you assume things, it's what you assume that bothers people ITT.

Flanker1067
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Re: The Case for T2

Postby Flanker1067 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:10 pm

SisyphusHappy wrote://I also got a significant scholarship here. I would have paid close to full price at a T14.//

Something doesn't add up. I can't seem to break into T14, but have $$$$ at top 20. What kind of numbers give you only a "significant" scholly at T2 and partial scholly at T14?

Sounds like OP doesn't have numbers for T14 and is trying to rationalize.


Not that this is really important, but I was a splitter and got money at a T14 but went waitlist->out at the three schools I applied to between 15-20. I also got a surprisingly low (would say "significant") scholly at the one T2 I applied. Some cycles are hard to predict.

Add: my point is, congrats, you should be happy that you got big money to good schools even if you can't get T14.




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