University of Miami VS FSU (please read, then vote) Forum

[rman1201]

http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 0&t=147111

And I'm pretty sure Ugpa is an even worse indicator of LS success

[FeelTheHeat]

Does the OP have a personal connection to this FSU professor?

[Top14Hope]

>3.5 are slackers?
Those 170s might say the same about the >165 score.

Except for the fact that half of them paid for a 1,000 dollar class, and studied for about a half of a year. I was busy working and getting all A's. I didn't take a class, didn't have ample free time, and didn't have family or friends explaining to me how literally it wouldn't matter if I cured cancer, without the LSAT, you aren't getting in(99.9% of the time). Unless you're URM, which I'm not. Knowledge, money, connections, who you know, who you parents are, changes everything. You are all too close minded. Although, I'm sure you think it's me.

Look who missed the boat on that one, brainiac.

+1. ever thought that maybe you are the slacker, because you didn't want to put in the studying time for the LSAT? wouldn't a "gunner" (as you claim to be) put in that effort?

Not if the gunner:
1. Had a misconception of law school admissions, and the fact that they are not looking for who they think deserves to be there, or who has the best chance to do well there, but simply to improve their rankings/medians/and most importantly financial situations. If I would have been shown Emory's "wall of doom" before taking the LSAT in October, I would have immediately known that a retake was necessary, and would have retaken in December, or just skipped October and taking it in December. Thanks to always hearing how important it is to have my application in early, I had all 35 done by early November, all in pristine shape, giving individual attention to the differences between schools, literally doing everything TLS says to give yourself a good chance. When I tell you that the Law advisor (at a 40K+ University) told me that my PS was literally as good as it gets, and that I couldn’t be a better applicant, you probably think I full of myself, but it’s the truth, and I’m not. I worked so hard on everything I did the past 4 years to get me into a good law school. Literally doing every extra thing one can do to improve their success of law school admissions. But silly me, I had no idea that none of those things mean shit compared to the LSAT. I thought, All A’s, law internship, incredible story, shitty family, what else can I do? I thought, these have to be some of the smartest people in America! They have to be able to look at my file and see that I literally have everything but there LSAT score and colored scan(pro AA FWIW). I thought, clearly state run university, giving money by the federal government, it would be ruled by logic, fairness, and equality. I can tell you now, that couldn’t be further from the truth. I was silly. Didn’t realize these rankings literally mean everything to the Deans of these schools. I know it’s not their fault though—it’s just the American way. Everything is ruled by the dollar.

2. Thought every school in the state of desired practice was a lock (so far so good, still waiting for UF)

3. Had no money, time, or patience to put myself through 3 more months of hell, but only because I thought that I would get lucky somewhere. That one school had to put there LSAT guard down, just for a second. Boy was I wrong.

4. Had no idea that young lawyers struggled as much as TLS makes it seem, the economy was this bad on lawyers, and that getting a job is going to be a bitch, maybe.

Also, I have a lot of stuff I can’t say here that would help my app in your eyes, but it’s to unique to say, and if any Adcom is reading lol, then I would definitely be done for. Although, it shouldn’t be that hard for them at this point.

Thanks for the help.

[dr123]

>3.5 are slackers?
Those 170s might say the same about the >165 score.

Except for the fact that half of them paid for a 1,000 dollar class, and studied for about a half of a year. I was busy working and getting all A's. I didn't take a class, didn't have ample free time, and didn't have family or friends explaining to me how literally it wouldn't matter if I cured cancer, without the LSAT, you aren't getting in(99.9% of the time). Unless you're URM, which I'm not. Knowledge, money, connections, who you know, who you parents are, changes everything. You are all too close minded. Although, I'm sure you think it's me.

Why don't you apply that same work ethic to the LSAT then? fyi you can take the LSAT more than once, in fact you can take it 3 times!

[rman1201]

Not if the gunner:
1. Had a misconception of law school admissions, and the fact that they are not looking for who they think deserves to be there, or who has the best chance to do well there, but simply to improve their rankings/medians/and most importantly financial situations. If I would have been shown Emory's "wall of doom" before taking the LSAT in October, I would have immediately known that a retake was necessary, and would have retaken in December, or just skipped October and taking it in December. Thanks to always hearing how important it is to have my application in early, I had all 35 done by early November, all in pristine shape, giving individual attention to the differences between schools, literally doing everything TLS says to give yourself a good chance. When I tell you that the Law advisor (at a 40K+ University) told me that my PS was literally as good as it gets, and that I couldn’t be a better applicant, you probably think I full of myself, but it’s the truth, and I’m not. I worked so hard on everything I did the past 4 years to get me into a good law school. Literally doing every extra thing one can do to improve their success of law school admissions. But silly me, I had no idea that none of those things mean shit compared to the LSAT. I thought, All A’s, law internship, incredible story, shitty family, what else can I do? I thought, these have to be some of the smartest people in America! They have to be able to look at my file and see that I literally have everything but there LSAT score and colored scan(pro AA FWIW). I thought, clearly state run university, giving money by the federal government, it would be ruled by logic, fairness, and equality. I can tell you now, that couldn’t be further from the truth. I was silly. Didn’t realize these rankings literally mean everything to the Deans of these schools. I know it’s not their fault though—it’s just the American way. Everything is ruled by the dollar.

2. Thought every school in the state of desired practice was a lock (so far so good, still waiting for UF)

3. Had no money, time, or patience to put myself through 3 more months of hell, but only because I thought that I would get lucky somewhere. That one school had to put there LSAT guard down, just for a second. Boy was I wrong.

4. Had no idea that young lawyers struggled as much as TLS makes it seem, the economy was this bad on lawyers, and that getting a job is going to be a bitch, maybe.

Also, I have a lot of stuff I can’t say here that would help my app in your eyes, but it’s to unique to say, and if any Adcom is reading lol, then I would definitely be done for. Although, it shouldn’t be that hard for them at this point.

Thanks for the help.

If you're so intelligent and hardworking why wouldn't you at some point think to do a little research on law school admissions prior to taking the LSAT?

[jeremysen]

Sadly enough, when all is said and done, the only person with a hole in his pocket is you. Because we all know that the Only reason you may not get a scholarship is because of your LSAT score.

Most people probably don't need the $1000 course to gain 5 points, but heck...even if it is $1000, doesn't it sound like a drop in the bucket when the $1k can translate to tens of thousands of dollars in scholarships?

Seems like putting aside this ego of yours isn't a bad idea.


btw There's a much stronger correlation between high LSAT & 1L success than high GPA & 1L success OP, not to say you won't gun your way to the top.

Good luck OP, nonetheless.

[Top14Hope]

>3.5 are slackers?
Those 170s might say the same about the >165 score.

Except for the fact that half of them paid for a 1,000 dollar class, and studied for about a half of a year. I was busy working and getting all A's. I didn't take a class, didn't have ample free time, and didn't have family or friends explaining to me how literally it wouldn't matter if I cured cancer, without the LSAT, you aren't getting in(99.9% of the time). Unless you're URM, which I'm not. Knowledge, money, connections, who you know, who you parents are, changes everything. You are all too close minded. Although, I'm sure you think it's me.

Why don't you apply that same work ethic to the LSAT then? fyi you can take the LSAT more than once, in fact you can take it 3 times!

I did. My score went from a 142 to a 165 over a 4 month period. Which brings be to this. If a person can bring their score from a 142 to a 165, then isn't it clear that it's all about practice, and not much else? If that is so, then why is it fair to punish the person who for whatever reason, cannot study as much as someone else, have enough money for a private tutor, have a way to know that the LSAT is all that matters, and that yes 98% of college grads can get above a 165 if they practice enough, and what you heard about it being so hard, impossible, only for smart people, is the only thing holding everyone else back. Every time I tell someone I'm going to be a lawyer they automatically think I'm smart. They have no idea that we all have the same abilities and that I'm just doing something with mine, and practicing at it way more than everyone else I know, and that any douche could go to law school (even lazy ones). These people just weren't pushed in the way we currently are, or have been in the past. Just in the same way that I wasn't pushed to retake at the right moment. It's not necessarily my fault. It's just how things fell. Maybe one of you found this bored and realized a retake was possible and necessary before it was too late, I didn't. I honestly blame my pre-law program at the University I attended. 1000 e-mails, never once did one talk about the importance of retaking, instead everything I heard kind of discouraged it and led you to believe that your score is your score if you practiced. GOD THAT IS SO WRONG! YOU CAN KEEP PRACTICING AND RAISE YOUR SCORE TO A 180! Everyone here with a 3.2 would be fucked at the top 50 if everyone who applied to law school actually realized/believed that they too can get a 165+ with enough practice, and knew that is 80% of what will matter.

The LSAT has no test retest reliability, and for 90% of us, it only shows who practiced the most. But these are skills that can be learned quickly (4 months for me to go from 142 to 165). And for logical reasoning I usually got every question right, just never got to the end. Good thing being a lawyer isn't a timed 35min section. Those who read at a slightly slower pace, retain more, and store it for longer, should not be punished. I can do an LSAT and get every question correct (as could everyone else) I just always have 3 or 4 questions left.

[dr123]

too long didnt read, you know you can always retake and apply next cycle. Its not mandatory to go to LS directly from undergrad

[Top14Hope]

>3.5 are slackers?
Those 170s might say the same about the >165 score.

Except for the fact that half of them paid for a 1,000 dollar class, and studied for about a half of a year. I was busy working and getting all A's. I didn't take a class, didn't have ample free time, and didn't have family or friends explaining to me how literally it wouldn't matter if I cured cancer, without the LSAT, you aren't getting in(99.9% of the time). Unless you're URM, which I'm not. Knowledge, money, connections, who you know, who you parents are, changes everything. You are all too close minded. Although, I'm sure you think it's me.

Why don't you apply that same work ethic to the LSAT then? fyi you can take the LSAT more than once, in fact you can take it 3 times!

I did. My score went from a 142 to a 165 over a 4 month period. Which brings be to this. If a person can bring their score from a 142 to a 165, then isn't it clear that it's all about practice, and not much else? If that is so, then why is it fair to punish the person who for whatever reason, cannot study as much as someone else, have enough money for a private tutor, have a way to know that the LSAT is all that matters, and that yes 98% of college grads can get above a 165 if they practice enough, and what you heard about it being so hard, impossible, only for smart people, is the only thing holding everyone else back. Every time I tell someone I'm going to be a lawyer they automatically think I'm smart. They have no idea that we all have the same abilities and that I'm just doing something with mine, and practicing at it way more than everyone else I know, and that any douche could go to law school (even lazy ones). These people just weren't pushed in the way we currently are, or have been in the past. Just in the same way that I wasn't pushed to retake at the right moment. It's not necessarily my fault. It's just how things fell. Maybe one of you found this bored and realized a retake was possible and necessary before it was too late, I didn't. I honestly blame my pre-law program at the University I attended. 1000 e-mails, never once did one talk about the importance of retaking, instead everything I heard kind of discouraged it and led you to believe that your score is your score if you practiced. GOD THAT IS SO WRONG! YOU CAN KEEP PRACTICING AND RAISE YOUR SCORE TO A 180! Everyone here with a 3.2 would be fucked at the top 50 if everyone who applied to law school actually realized/believed that they too can get a 165+ with enough practice, and knew that is 80% of what will matter.

The LSAT has no test retest reliability, and for 90% of us, it only shows who practiced the most. But these are skills that can be learned quickly (4 months for me to go from 142 to 165). And for logical reasoning I usually got every question right, just never got to the end. Good thing being a lawyer isn't a timed 35min section. Those who read at a slightly slower pace, retain more, and store it for longer, should not be punished. I can do an LSAT and get every question correct (as could everyone else) I just always have 3 or 4 questions left.

Also, I took about 25 PT.

Here is what my score went like. Literally.
142,144,145,146,149,152,149,153,154,155,154,157,158,160,159,161,162,160,163,162,161,164,165,163,165,164. October exam... FML. I figured with the addition of applying early and my rock solid application, I would be fine, but no.

[dr123]

Why do you refuse to take time off and retake? making money strengthening your app with we/higher lsat > going into large ammounts of debt at a school you dont really want to go to

[Top14Hope]

Sadly enough, when all is said and done, the only person with a hole in his pocket is you. Because we all know that the Only reason you may not get a scholarship is because of your LSAT score.

Most people probably don't need the $1000 course to gain 5 points, but heck...even if it is $1000, doesn't it sound like a drop in the bucket when the $1k can translate to tens of thousands of dollars in scholarships?

Seems like putting aside this ego of yours isn't a bad idea.


btw There's a much stronger correlation between high LSAT & 1L success than high GPA & 1L success OP, not to say you won't gun your way to the top.

Good luck OP, nonetheless.

Sadly, I'm not like most people. I don't have a 1,000 to spend. If I did, I would have invested it in a LSAT prep course in a second. I come from a really poor family, reallllyyy poor.

[Top14Hope]

Why do you refuse to take time off and retake? making money strengthening your app with we/higher lsat > going into large ammounts of debt at a school you dont really want to go to

I love school and hate working at a job that I can't really use my brain. I need more!

I'd rather enjoy school while I'm young, and I'm scared I would find too good of a job, and not want to leave for law school.

[keg411]

Why do you refuse to take time off and retake? making money strengthening your app with we/higher lsat > going into large ammounts of debt at a school you dont really want to go to

I love school and hate working at a job that I can't really use my brain. I need more!

I'd rather enjoy school while I'm young, and I'm scared I would find too good of a job, and not want to leave for law school.

You are going to hate being a lawyer.

[dr123]

what?

first of all, a lot of the work lawyers do doesn't require complex thinking, a lot of it is very tedious. (note: I'm not a lawyer, but I work in the legal field right now and have a pretty good idea of what lawyers actually do)

second, you won't be young next year or the year after that, wtf?

third, if you love school and hate work, you probably won't make a very good lawyer

[Grizz]

Why do you refuse to take time off and retake? making money strengthening your app with we/higher lsat > going into large ammounts of debt at a school you dont really want to go to

I love school and hate working at a job that I can't really use my brain. I need more!

I'd rather enjoy school while I'm young, and I'm scared I would find too good of a job, and not want to leave for law school.

You are going to hate being a lawyer.

This. A lot of law is boring doc review, dealing with clients (which you may or may not enjoy), running a business, and cut-and-paste drivel.

[Grizz]

third, if you love school and hate work, you probably won't make a very good lawyer

Also this. Speaking as someone who has worked in law firms, studying law is NOTHING like practice.

[keg411]

T14Hope - in all seriousness, you sound like someone who just doesn't want to leave school. That is a horrible reason to go to lawl school.

[Top14Hope]

T14Hope - in all seriousness, you sound like someone who just doesn't want to leave school. That is a horrible reason to go to lawl school.

I do want to leave school; I just want to be done with it before I leave. After law school I will work, now I just want to learn. I'm not worried about money. I've been broke my whole life. I just want to be happy, and go to a school I can be proud and excited to attend. However, I won't waste a year to chase such a thing. I will better off starting law school ASAP, believe it or not.

Thanks for the help! (this is not me being an ass, for serious.)

[Grizz]

T14Hope - in all seriousness, you sound like someone who just doesn't want to leave school. That is a horrible reason to go to lawl school.

I do want to leave school; I just want to be done with it before I leave. After law school I will work, now I just want to learn. I'm not worried about money. I've been broke my whole life. I just want to be happy, and go to a school I can be proud and excited to attend. However, I won't waste a year to chase such a thing. I will better off starting law school ASAP, believe it or not.

Thanks for the help! (this is not me being an ass, for serious.)

As long as you're cool with crushing debt and horrifically mediocre job prospects, go with Christ brah

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

>3.5 are slackers?
Those 170s might say the same about the >165 score.

Except for the fact that half of them paid for a 1,000 dollar class, and studied for about a half of a year. I was busy working and getting all A's. I didn't take a class, didn't have ample free time, and didn't have family or friends explaining to me how literally it wouldn't matter if I cured cancer, without the LSAT, you aren't getting in(99.9% of the time). Unless you're URM, which I'm not. Knowledge, money, connections, who you know, who you parents are, changes everything. You are all too close minded. Although, I'm sure you think it's me.

Why don't you apply that same work ethic to the LSAT then? fyi you can take the LSAT more than once, in fact you can take it 3 times!

I did. My score went from a 142 to a 165 over a 4 month period. Which brings be to this. If a person can bring their score from a 142 to a 165, then isn't it clear that it's all about practice, and not much else? If that is so, then why is it fair to punish the person who for whatever reason, cannot study as much as someone else, have enough money for a private tutor, have a way to know that the LSAT is all that matters, and that yes 98% of college grads can get above a 165 if they practice enough, and what you heard about it being so hard, impossible, only for smart people, is the only thing holding everyone else back. Every time I tell someone I'm going to be a lawyer they automatically think I'm smart. They have no idea that we all have the same abilities and that I'm just doing something with mine, and practicing at it way more than everyone else I know, and that any douche could go to law school (even lazy ones). These people just weren't pushed in the way we currently are, or have been in the past. Just in the same way that I wasn't pushed to retake at the right moment. It's not necessarily my fault. It's just how things fell. Maybe one of you found this bored and realized a retake was possible and necessary before it was too late, I didn't. I honestly blame my pre-law program at the University I attended. 1000 e-mails, never once did one talk about the importance of retaking, instead everything I heard kind of discouraged it and led you to believe that your score is your score if you practiced. GOD THAT IS SO WRONG! YOU CAN KEEP PRACTICING AND RAISE YOUR SCORE TO A 180! Everyone here with a 3.2 would be fucked at the top 50 if everyone who applied to law school actually realized/believed that they too can get a 165+ with enough practice, and knew that is 80% of what will matter.

The LSAT has no test retest reliability, and for 90% of us, it only shows who practiced the most. But these are skills that can be learned quickly (4 months for me to go from 142 to 165). And for logical reasoning I usually got every question right, just never got to the end. Good thing being a lawyer isn't a timed 35min section. Those who read at a slightly slower pace, retain more, and store it for longer, should not be punished. I can do an LSAT and get every question correct (as could everyone else) I just always have 3 or 4 questions left.

Holy wall of text batman!

OP, instead of railing on you for your condescension for engineering majors and people who actually decided to do admissions research, and completely ignoring your miserably ignorance, i'm going to give you some perspective:

Option 1: go to Miami now, with 0 scholarship.

Option 2: wait a year, work for peanuts, retake ~2 more times if needed, increase your LSAT by 3 points, go to Miami a year later with a 60-80k+ scholarship.

The reality is that by waiting a year, you're making your real wages + whatever scholarship money you earn through an increased LSAT score. Then when you factor in the amount less you'll pay in loans on that borrowed amount, you'd be making a crap-ton more money by waiting a year and retaking.

Also, keep holding your nose high bro, I heard it's a great for networking.

[Top14Hope]

As long as you're cool with crushing debt and horrifically mediocre job prospects, go with Christ brah

I always knew it would be you telling me to retake. Wish I believed you sooner Rad Law.

[Top14Hope]

Holy wall of text batman!

OP, instead of railing on you for your condescension for engineering majors and people who actually decided to do admissions research, and completely ignoring your miserably ignorance, i'm going to give you some perspective:

Option 1: go to Miami now, with 0 scholarship.

Option 2: wait a year, work for peanuts, retake ~2 more times if needed, increase your LSAT by 3 points, go to Miami a year later with a 60-80k+ scholarship.

The reality is that by waiting a year, you're making your real wages + whatever scholarship money you earn through an increased LSAT score. Then when you factor in the amount less you'll pay in loans on that borrowed amount, you'd be making a crap-ton more money by waiting a year and retaking.

Also, keep holding your nose high bro, I heard it's a great for networking.

Thanks. But Miami gave me 24k a year, and you should read before you rant. FWIW you sound like the one keeping your nose high. In case you haven't been listening, I don't think I'm smart. I just work hard, and have been reinforced for doing well in school. I really believe everyone reading this can get a 4.0 and a 180. Who gets what is not based on anything but the factors surrounding our lives and how they have shaped us.

[keg411]

T14Hope - in all seriousness, you sound like someone who just doesn't want to leave school. That is a horrible reason to go to lawl school.

I do want to leave school; I just want to be done with it before I leave. After law school I will work, now I just want to learn. I'm not worried about money. I've been broke my whole life. I just want to be happy, and go to a school I can be proud and excited to attend. However, I won't waste a year to chase such a thing. I will better off starting law school ASAP, believe it or not.

Thanks for the help! (this is not me being an ass, for serious.)

Why do you think law school will make you happy? Seriously, it's professional school. The goal is to go so that you can be a lawyer. It's not like some place filled with magical rainbows that can make you happy. The good thing about waiting a few years is that your spirit will already be broken by the time you get there.

Also, I'm an advocate of pretty much everyone waiting at least 3 years before going to law school (I wish it was like B-school in the respect that WE is a requirement). You don't realize how helpful it is when you actually get to law school. It has been nothing but a significant advantage for me.

ETA: The reason why people are telling you to re-take is because you have a 3.99 and even with a high 160 score you would be able to get into schools that will give you an enormous leg up in gaining employment. It could be the difference between making $160k at graduation and being unemployed looking for doc review work at graduation.

[rman1201]

Holy wall of text batman!

OP, instead of railing on you for your condescension for engineering majors and people who actually decided to do admissions research, and completely ignoring your miserably ignorance, i'm going to give you some perspective:

Option 1: go to Miami now, with 0 scholarship.

Option 2: wait a year, work for peanuts, retake ~2 more times if needed, increase your LSAT by 3 points, go to Miami a year later with a 60-80k+ scholarship.

The reality is that by waiting a year, you're making your real wages + whatever scholarship money you earn through an increased LSAT score. Then when you factor in the amount less you'll pay in loans on that borrowed amount, you'd be making a crap-ton more money by waiting a year and retaking.

Also, keep holding your nose high bro, I heard it's a great for networking.

Thanks. But Miami gave me 24k a year, and you should read before you rant. FWIW you sound like the one keeping your nose high. In case you haven't been listening, I don't think I'm smart. I just work hard, and have been reinforced for doing well in school. I really believe everyone reading this can get a 4.0 and a 180. Who gets what is not based on anything but the factors surrounding our lives and how they have shaped us.

You are aware that the LSAT is a curved test right? No more than 5% of all who take it can score above a 167. So there literally is no way everyone could score a 180.
Take a bio/genetics/psych course. Yes environment does play a role, but theres plenty of research suggesting a large biological role in intelligence - hard work can only get you so far. I never took a class, studied leisurely for the LSAT and got a 167, my friend had a 4.0, studied intensely, and never broke 160.

And hard work just isn't enough for law school, everyone is working hard. This isn't florida public school where virtually everyone is on a full scholarship and simply going to school because they have to - this is a lot of people putting down $100k+ for a chance at a job in an oversaturated extremely competitive field, where all grading is on a forced curve (again, literally everyone cannot get an A, only 20% or so of the class).

[Mickey Quicknumbers]

Holy wall of text batman!

OP, instead of railing on you for your condescension for engineering majors and people who actually decided to do admissions research, and completely ignoring your miserably ignorance, i'm going to give you some perspective:

Option 1: go to Miami now, with 0 scholarship.

Option 2: wait a year, work for peanuts, retake ~2 more times if needed, increase your LSAT by 3 points, go to Miami a year later with a 60-80k+ scholarship.

The reality is that by waiting a year, you're making your real wages + whatever scholarship money you earn through an increased LSAT score. Then when you factor in the amount less you'll pay in loans on that borrowed amount, you'd be making a crap-ton more money by waiting a year and retaking.

Also, keep holding your nose high bro, I heard it's a great for networking.

Thanks. But Miami gave me 24k a year, and you should read before you rant. FWIW you sound like the one keeping your nose high. In case you haven't been listening, I don't think I'm smart. I just work hard, and have been reinforced for doing well in school. I really believe everyone reading this can get a 4.0 and a 180. Who gets what is not based on anything but the factors surrounding our lives and how they have shaped us.

ah, sorry, I missed that part about the scholarship. I think you're living in a dream world if you think everyone can get a 180 and a 4.0. There is a level of innate intelligence and mental capacity required on the LSAT that some kids just don't have to come anywhere close to a 180. Not to mention that the LSAT is curved, so by definition the median will be around 150, and less than 3% of kids will break 170, so there's literally no way for that to be possible. Either way, enjoy Miami, the job prospect in Florida are near apocalyptic levels, but that probably won't dissuade you.

Oh, and how exactly do I sound like the stuck up one, just out of curiosity?