50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

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pilchc
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby pilchc » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:27 pm

to Snape, Fark-o-vision and romothesavior,

Thank you for the input. What you said is discouraging, but it is important to consider.

mrwarre85
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby mrwarre85 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:34 pm

University of Oklahoma is tier two and is the highest ranked of the three schools in Oklahoma. Its great if you want to work in Oklahoma. University of New Mexico is the only school in New Mexico. Killer placement in that state obviously. University of Denver is tier 2 like the others and is one of two schools in Colorado. I think like half of the practicing lawyers in the state went there.

Like they said its really where you want to live. Tier two in California or Florida sounds terrifying, but in some states it isn't a bad bet at all.

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gbpackerbacker
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby gbpackerbacker » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:35 pm

mrwarre85 wrote:University of Oklahoma is tier two and is the highest ranked of the three schools in Oklahoma. Its great if you want to work in Oklahoma. University of New Mexico is the only school in New Mexico. Killer placement in that state obviously. University of Denver is tier 2 like the others and is one of two schools in Colorado. I think like half of the practicing lawyers in the state went there.

Like they said its really where you want to live. Tier two in California or Florida sounds terrifying, but in some states it isn't a bad bet at all.

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arvcondor
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby arvcondor » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:04 pm

Another consideration: At least in Philly, T2s outperform T14 for area jobs. Temple and Villanova grads constitute a much larger proportion of lawyers in the area than do Penn grads. That may all be self-selective of course, but it's a phenomenon nonetheless.

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romothesavior
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:37 pm

pilchc wrote:I was also offered a full ride by U of Illinois. Is that a bad deal too?

This is a great deal and I'd take it in a heartbeat over just about any T2 in the country.

keg411
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby keg411 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:41 pm

romothesavior wrote:
pilchc wrote:I was also offered a full ride by U of Illinois. Is that a bad deal too?

This is a great deal and I'd take it in a heartbeat over just about any T2 in the country.


And most non-T14 T1's.

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romothesavior
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Feb 15, 2011 6:51 pm

keg411 wrote:
romothesavior wrote:
pilchc wrote:I was also offered a full ride by U of Illinois. Is that a bad deal too?

This is a great deal and I'd take it in a heartbeat over just about any T2 in the country.


And most non-T14 T1's.

Definitely. I'd even take it over some lower T14s, but that's just me. I am from Illinois and generally pretty debt averse, so UIUC full ride >>>> CG at sticker for me.

OP, unless you have a really strong reason for taking a T2 full ride, I can't see why you'd go to one over a full ride at Illinois.

Snape
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby Snape » Wed Feb 16, 2011 10:46 am

arvcondor wrote:Another consideration: At least in Philly, T2s outperform T14 for area jobs. Temple and Villanova grads constitute a much larger proportion of lawyers in the area than do Penn grads. That may all be self-selective of course, but it's a phenomenon nonetheless.


This is 100% self selection and the result of previous job prospects and a different hunt for legal work. Most Penn students at any level go to New York--with a struggling economy I guarantee more Penn grads look towards Philly and the other schools won't have a chance in competing with them...not a chance...this is 100% self selection and one should not go to either school thinking they have anything but a remote chance of gaining a good paying firm job--it is very poor advice to lead anyone on to believing they have a good (more than 20%) chance at gaining firm work from Temple/Drexel/Villanova.

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voltage88
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby voltage88 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:17 am

Snape wrote:
arvcondor wrote:Another consideration: At least in Philly, T2s outperform T14 for area jobs. Temple and Villanova grads constitute a much larger proportion of lawyers in the area than do Penn grads. That may all be self-selective of course, but it's a phenomenon nonetheless.


This is 100% self selection and the result of previous job prospects and a different hunt for legal work. Most Penn students at any level go to New York--with a struggling economy I guarantee more Penn grads look towards Philly and the other schools won't have a chance in competing with them...not a chance...this is 100% self selection and one should not go to either school thinking they have anything but a remote chance of gaining a good paying firm job--it is very poor advice to lead anyone on to believing they have a good (more than 20%) chance at gaining firm work from Temple/Drexel/Villanova.


You're assuming that recruiters prefer Penn grads over the regional schools in Philly just because Penn is ranked higher...this isn't always true. I don't know about Drexel, but Temple and Villanova have very close ties with many law firms in the region. I doubt these law firms are gonna concede their loyalties to these schools to go after Penn grads simply because of a cyclical economic downturn.

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sidewaysglance
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby sidewaysglance » Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:52 am

voltage88 wrote:
Snape wrote:
arvcondor wrote:Another consideration: At least in Philly, T2s outperform T14 for area jobs. Temple and Villanova grads constitute a much larger proportion of lawyers in the area than do Penn grads. That may all be self-selective of course, but it's a phenomenon nonetheless.


This is 100% self selection and the result of previous job prospects and a different hunt for legal work. Most Penn students at any level go to New York--with a struggling economy I guarantee more Penn grads look towards Philly and the other schools won't have a chance in competing with them...not a chance...this is 100% self selection and one should not go to either school thinking they have anything but a remote chance of gaining a good paying firm job--it is very poor advice to lead anyone on to believing they have a good (more than 20%) chance at gaining firm work from Temple/Drexel/Villanova.


You're assuming that recruiters prefer Penn grads over the regional schools in Philly just because Penn is ranked higher...this isn't always true. I don't know about Drexel, but Temple and Villanova have very close ties with many law firms in the region. I doubt these law firms are gonna concede their loyalties to these schools to go after Penn grads simply because of a cyclical economic downturn.


I'm a Temple student, so take this as you will... Although Penn grads not working in Philadelphia is self-selective, I don't think the fact that the market is more competetive and Penn grads will be looking for work in Philly will injure schools like Temple and Villanova very much. The firms in Philadelphia are dominated by Temple and Villanova grads, and a huge number of judges/partners/senior associates are alums of these schools.Because of previous self-selection, and the fact that the Philly market is now dominated by these schools, those employers are partial to hiring graduates of those schools. Many Philly employers seem to take pride in this, (a loyalty thing?), and make mention of it. “We aren’t looking to hire interns/clerks/new associates from XYZ T14 School, we like to hire from the local schools”

I think a lot of it for the firms may be protective, they want someone with ties to the area, that seems committed to staying there. They don’t want someone who will jump ship for a bigger offer from a bigger firm in NY as soon as the opportunity arises. I’m guessing that any Penn grad who can make it clear that they want to be in Philly, and have a preference for the area will get hired. But if the employer gages it as a placeholder, or a backup plan, their chances are going to go down considerably.

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TJISMYHERO
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby TJISMYHERO » Wed Feb 16, 2011 12:00 pm

What about UofH?

Snape
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby Snape » Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:03 pm

I know many, many, many Temple, Drexel, Nova 3Ls and grads wishing they had a decent job---does that mean anything--I don't know, but I dont know any Penn grads with difficulty finding legal work in Philly though many of them wanted to be in NY...in the end, if a Penn grad is serious about Philly they will get the job over students from other school about 85% of the time and career prospects for firm work arent ver good for any school in Philly besides Penn....sorry, but thats the truth.

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voltage88
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby voltage88 » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:39 pm

Snape wrote:I know many, many, many Temple, Drexel, Nova 3Ls and grads wishing they had a decent job---does that mean anything--I don't know, but I dont know any Penn grads with difficulty finding legal work in Philly though many of them wanted to be in NY...in the end, if a Penn grad is serious about Philly they will get the job over students from other school about 85% of the time and career prospects for firm work arent ver good for any school in Philly besides Penn....sorry, but thats the truth.


And your cold hard facts are proof of this.... :roll:

Snape
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby Snape » Wed Feb 16, 2011 4:41 pm

You're right--no cold hard facts--temple and nova place better--it is a great investment with no risk--good luck!

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Hank Chill
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby Hank Chill » Wed Feb 16, 2011 6:41 pm

TJISMYHERO wrote:What about UofH?


UofH does pretty well in Houston. I work at a very small firm downtown and there are a couple UH grads there. Everyone speaks highly of the school, at least in my experience. It's also pretty cheap as far as law schools go.

However, you will likely be in Houston for the rest of your life. Some people would call that a living hell.

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sidewaysglance
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby sidewaysglance » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:26 am

Snape wrote:You're right--no cold hard facts--temple and nova place better--it is a great investment with no risk--good luck!


I don't think anyone was arguing that Temple and Villanova place "better" than Penn, but that career prospects out of those two schools in the Philadelphia area are generally good. Having a T14 school in the city, doesn't diminish the job oppurtunities of graduates of the other schools, in the same way that it might in different cities.

I have no idea how "many many Temple/Nova/Drexel" graduates you know, but when people use phrases like that it generally refers to "I have this friend(or two friends) who can't get a job". Were you friends/the people you know above the median? Did they have solid internships over the summer? You have no idea what factors contributed to this. I have "many many" 3L friends who got hired at Philly biglaw firms. I know people from my school who got jobs at big NY law firms this year.Does that mean that is what the job prospects look like for all graduates of these schools, or even most of them? No. Do you see how you are making the same arguement?

Since the question of the thread was about general career prospects, I would say that for the time being, career prospects IN PHILADELPHIA, for graduates of the specific 50-100 schools named here are good. You don't have to be a Penn graduate to have good career prospects here, you don't have to be in the top 10% at your 50-100 school to have good prospects here.

As far as a good investment... for a PA resident to go to Temple, is a good invesment. You pay less than half of what it costs to go to most law schools, and less than all of the Philadelphia competetiors. If you are a PA resident, and get any kind of scholarship, you pay almost nothing in tuition. So graduating with very little debt, and good job prospects is a good investment.

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thesealocust
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby thesealocust » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:57 am

50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?


Poor.

Have some data:

(1) NALP Class of '09 bimodal chart based on 20K reported salaries [FN1]

(2) BLS predicts about 36,000 entry level jobs for attorneys exist [FN2]

(3) About 45,000 law school graduate every year [FN3] [FN4]

(4) About 5,000 get hired into "big firm" jobs every year - loosely defined as NLJ 250 plus some more not counted in the NLJ 250 (boutiques, just under 200 attorneys, etc.) [FN4] Keep in mind that something like half of these jobs go to students at the T14 schools, the rest to the other 180+.

(5) According to The Bimodal Chart(TM) bandied about all the time, roughly 25% of respondents earn a big firm 160K range salary.[FN1] A little multiplication shows that means roughly 4878.25 people reported to the NALP making a ~160K salary.

(6) Our relatively robust estimate of mid 6-figure entry level jobs is 5K (see data/source from (4) above) and because just under 5K such jobs are reported on the bimodal chart in (5). It is further reasonable to infer that these jobs are the easiest to collect info on - big firm associates work in large numbers (often dozens in one office) and can be identified / discussed much easier than others due to their concentration. This means it is very fair to say that most "big firm" salaries are already accounted for on the chart.

(7) The chart only reports salaries for about 45% of all graduates from law schools, and per (2) and (3) we have reason to believe at least 10K fail to find any kind of employment in the legal sector.

(8) The chart massively under-reports the existence of low / non-big law salaries. You could argue it's actually under-reporting mid law, but I think realistically the 35-65K "hump" should visually be much much much taller if the bimodal chart were to represent all graduates and not just ~20K respondents.

In conclusion, job prospects are schools in the 50-100 region are very poor - IF you are taking on substantial debt or want to practice in the big firm environment. The level of unemployment (in the legal sector) amongst recent law school graduates is absolutely staggering, and only increases the further 'down the totem pole' you go.

[FN1] "Note: The graph is based on 19,513 salaries." http://www.nalp.org/salarydistrib

[FN2] "There were 36,000 new jobs, marking a fourth straight month of improvement" (quoting a BLS report). http://amlawdaily.typepad.com/amlawdail ... eport.html

[FN3] "Some 45,000 people graduate from law school every year." http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/colleg ... chools.php

[FN4] "The average percentage of graduating classes from the top 50 schools hired by NLJ 250 firms was 30.3%. The total number of 2009 graduates hired by NLJ 250 firms from all law schools was 4,555. Law schools accredited by the American Bar Association awarded 43,588 law degrees in the 2008-2009 academic year." http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

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TJISMYHERO
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby TJISMYHERO » Thu Feb 17, 2011 12:10 pm

thesealocust wrote:
[FN4] "The average percentage of graduating classes from the top 50 schools hired by NLJ 250 firms was 30.3%. The total number of 2009 graduates hired by NLJ 250 firms from all law schools was 4,555. Law schools accredited by the American Bar Association awarded 43,588 law degrees in the 2008-2009 academic year." http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf


There are quite a few schools that are in the USNWR 50-100 that are in the top 50 for NLJ 250 hiring.

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sidewaysglance
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby sidewaysglance » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:30 pm

OP: This chart is really useful.

http://www.law.com/img/nlj/charts/composite.pdf

Keep in mind it has information from 2008, I don't know if it has been updated since (someone can post the update if it has).

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romothesavior
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 17, 2011 1:35 pm

thesealocust wrote:(2) BLS predicts about 36,000 entry level jobs for attorneys exist [FN2]

Isn't this more than pre-ITE?

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smittelman6
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby smittelman6 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 5:18 pm

why does everyone on TLS always assume that everyone coming out of law school expects to be making 160k?

is it unreasonable to believe that i will graduate from a T2 school and have some sort of job making 50-75k? i don't think i'm reaching for the stars. i'd like to see some statistics on those numbers-- i.e. how reasonable is this belief, how many graduates, willing to take 50-75k jobs, cannot find any?

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romothesavior
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 17, 2011 6:02 pm

smittelman6 wrote:why does everyone on TLS always assume that everyone coming out of law school expects to be making 160k?

Why do you assume that we assume that everyone coming out of law school expects to be making 160k? Because I've never seen anyone say that, and I'm getting sick and f***ing tired of people (mostly 0Ls) putting words in our mouths. I don't expect to make 160k, and I also know making 50-75k is going to be tough too. There are a lot of T1 students with great grades who would kill for a 75k/year job right now.

smittelman6 wrote:is it unreasonable to believe that i will graduate from a T2 school and have some sort of job making 50-75k


Not unreasonable at all, but it is also not a given (or maybe not even likely). It wouldn't be unreasonable to believe you'll make far less than that or not get a legal job at all. That's why keeping your debt is low, because you minimize the risk that way.

And getting accurate job statistics is damn near impossible because schools grossly manipulate employment statistics.

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smittelman6
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby smittelman6 » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:37 pm

romothesavior wrote: Why do you assume that we assume that everyone coming out of law school expects to be making 160k? Because I've never seen anyone say that, and I'm getting sick and f***ing tired of people (mostly 0Ls) putting words in our mouths.


no need for the hostility. a lot of times, t14s on TLS do take "get a job" to be equivalent with "get a biglaw job" which, as you may already know but clearly they do not, many of us don't want/care about.

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Ty Webb
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby Ty Webb » Thu Feb 17, 2011 10:48 pm

Hank Chill wrote:
TJISMYHERO wrote:What about UofH?


UofH does pretty well in Houston. I work at a very small firm downtown and there are a couple UH grads there. Everyone speaks highly of the school, at least in my experience. It's also pretty cheap as far as law schools go.

However, you will likely be in Houston for the rest of your life. Some people would call that a living hell.


This might change in the fall.

I did my research on this topic prior to making my choice. I don't think there's a better choice in this range of schools than UH when you consider all of the relevant factors (cost, strong Houston market, good reputation among firms in Houston, relative lack of competition compared to other major cities).

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Hank Chill
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby Hank Chill » Thu Feb 17, 2011 11:19 pm

Ty Webb wrote:
Hank Chill wrote:
TJISMYHERO wrote:What about UofH?


UofH does pretty well in Houston. I work at a very small firm downtown and there are a couple UH grads there. Everyone speaks highly of the school, at least in my experience. It's also pretty cheap as far as law schools go.

However, you will likely be in Houston for the rest of your life. Some people would call that a living hell.


This might change in the fall.

I did my research on this topic prior to making my choice. I don't think there's a better choice in this range of schools than UH when you consider all of the relevant factors (cost, strong Houston market, good reputation among firms in Houston, relative lack of competition compared to other major cities).


You're absolutely right. I forgot to mention that Texas is in the middle of a big budget crisis and there will be some huge education cuts. I think it's hovering around seven billion. I'm at UH for undergrad and I've been getting a lot of scary emails. UT and TAMU will be fine but things are going to get very difficult for UH if these budget cuts go into effect. Renu Khator said that the money UH would lose is equal to 11,000 students leaving the University.

So yes, you're right. UH could be very expensive in the near future.




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