50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

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pilchc
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50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby pilchc » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:18 am

What type of career prospects can a student expect if they attend a law school ranked in the 50th -100th range ?

I know that is a broad question. I'll try to narrow it. What if the student graduates in the top 20% and attends a school comparable with Loyola Chicago?

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dr123
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby dr123 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:20 am

It depends, some T2 schools are the only schools in their state and they place grads very well for obvious reasons. Others are in overcrowded markets where you'll be competing with many other schools and t14 grads

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Hank Chill
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby Hank Chill » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:23 am

dr123 wrote:It depends, some T2 schools are the only schools in their state and they place grads very well for obvious reasons. Others are in overcrowded markets where you'll be competing with many other schools and t14 grads

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pilchc
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby pilchc » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:29 am

That seems logical. Students from Loyola Chicago would have to compete with students from U of Illinois and U of Chicago. I can see why that would be hard for them. Still, I want to know what type of jobs they get. I am assuming they are not all unemployed because every vacancy was filled by a student who attended a T14. What do law students do when they "don't place well?"

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Adjudicator
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby Adjudicator » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:30 am

pilchc wrote:That seems logical. Students from Loyola Chicago would have to compete with students from U of Illinois and U of Chicago. I can see why that would be hard for them. Still, I want to know what type of jobs they get. I am assuming they are not all unemployed because every vacancy was filled by a student who attended a T14. What do law students do when they "don't place well?"


You might be assuming too much.

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francisConn
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby francisConn » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:31 am

I can't really speak to LoyChi and I don't know what schools are comparable to it, but conventional wisdom here is that it's important that a school in this range have a natural market in which it is competitive.

I know the state of Texas, and UHouston, for example, is in 50-100 range, and it's not a bad school to go to so long as you're willing to work in Houston.

Same goes for SMU in Dallas/Fort Worth. Both of these are good schools but they have much less reach outside their respective city. I suspect it's the same for many 50-100 schools, so be sure the school's in a solid market that you'd be willing to work in.

Now, even if it's in a solid market like LoyChi is, you have to look at what you'll be competing against, i.e., UChicago, Northwestern, UIllinois, Notre Dame, T14 folks who want Chicago. Lots of different considerations and variables.

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Hank Chill
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby Hank Chill » Fri Feb 11, 2011 3:51 am

francisConn wrote:I can't really speak to LoyChi and I don't know what schools are comparable to it, but conventional wisdom here is that it's important that a school in this range have a natural market in which it is competitive.

I know the state of Texas, and UHouston, for example, is in 50-100 range, and it's not a bad school to go to so long as you're willing to work in Houston.

Same goes for SMU in Dallas/Fort Worth. Both of these are good schools but they have much less reach outside their respective city. I suspect it's the same for many 50-100 schools, so be sure the school's in a solid market that you'd be willing to work in.

Now, even if it's in a solid market like LoyChi is, you have to look at what you'll be competing against, i.e., UChicago, Northwestern, UIllinois, Notre Dame, T14 folks who want Chicago. Lots of different considerations and variables.


Doesn't seem like there are a lot of different considerations and variables here. It's just a bad idea to enter a saturated market with a T2 degree.

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voltage88
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby voltage88 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:14 am

francisConn wrote:I can't really speak to LoyChi and I don't know what schools are comparable to it, but conventional wisdom here is that it's important that a school in this range have a natural market in which it is competitive.

I know the state of Texas, and UHouston, for example, is in 50-100 range, and it's not a bad school to go to so long as you're willing to work in Houston.

Same goes for SMU in Dallas/Fort Worth. Both of these are good schools but they have much less reach outside their respective city. I suspect it's the same for many 50-100 schools, so be sure the school's in a solid market that you'd be willing to work in.

Now, even if it's in a solid market like LoyChi is, you have to look at what you'll be competing against, i.e., UChicago, Northwestern, UIllinois, Notre Dame, T14 folks who want Chicago. Lots of different considerations and variables.


Can we add Rutgers-Camden to this list? A lot of people on these boards seem to like Rutgers. It basically reigns supreme in South Jersey and does decently well in Philadelphia despite what one may think of it based on its ranking (#80 I believe..)

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francisConn
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby francisConn » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:22 am

Hank Chill wrote:
francisConn wrote:I can't really speak to LoyChi and I don't know what schools are comparable to it, but conventional wisdom here is that it's important that a school in this range have a natural market in which it is competitive.

I know the state of Texas, and UHouston, for example, is in 50-100 range, and it's not a bad school to go to so long as you're willing to work in Houston.

Same goes for SMU in Dallas/Fort Worth. Both of these are good schools but they have much less reach outside their respective city. I suspect it's the same for many 50-100 schools, so be sure the school's in a solid market that you'd be willing to work in.

Now, even if it's in a solid market like LoyChi is, you have to look at what you'll be competing against, i.e., UChicago, Northwestern, UIllinois, Notre Dame, T14 folks who want Chicago. Lots of different considerations and variables.


Doesn't seem like there are a lot of different considerations and variables here. It's just a bad idea to enter a saturated market with a T2 degree.


Yeah, I think that's probably true in LoyChi's case and many others, but I wouldn't generalize to the whole T2.

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MrKappus
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby MrKappus » Fri Feb 11, 2011 4:24 am

Adjudicator wrote:
pilchc wrote:That seems logical. Students from Loyola Chicago would have to compete with students from U of Illinois and U of Chicago. I can see why that would be hard for them. Still, I want to know what type of jobs they get. I am assuming they are not all unemployed because every vacancy was filled by a student who attended a T14. What do law students do when they "don't place well?"


You might be assuming too much.


Not clever and, worse, misleading.

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PDaddy
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby PDaddy » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:01 am

francisConn wrote:I can't really speak to LoyChi and I don't know what schools are comparable to it, but conventional wisdom here is that it's important that a school in this range have a natural market in which it is competitive.

I know the state of Texas, and UHouston, for example, is in 50-100 range, and it's not a bad school to go to so long as you're willing to work in Houston.

Same goes for SMU in Dallas/Fort Worth. Both of these are good schools but they have much less reach outside their respective city. I suspect it's the same for many 50-100 schools, so be sure the school's in a solid market that you'd be willing to work in.

Now, even if it's in a solid market like LoyChi is, you have to look at what you'll be competing against, i.e., UChicago, Northwestern, UIllinois, Notre Dame, T14 folks who want Chicago. Lots of different considerations and variables.


Harvard and Michigan grads certainly DO want Chicago, so they are also obvious competitors. Don't forget top grads from Chicago-Kent, IUB, Minnesota, and WUSTL. Grads from those schools will get the nod over Loyola grads all day long (a little less the case with Kent). Loyola grads are "bottom feeders" in the Chicago Market with DePaul and Northern Illinois.

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androstan
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby androstan » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:58 am

pilchc wrote: What do law students do when they "don't place well?"


Food stamps, maybe prostitute themselves.

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Hank Chill
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby Hank Chill » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:28 pm

francisConn wrote:
Hank Chill wrote:
francisConn wrote:I can't really speak to LoyChi and I don't know what schools are comparable to it, but conventional wisdom here is that it's important that a school in this range have a natural market in which it is competitive.

I know the state of Texas, and UHouston, for example, is in 50-100 range, and it's not a bad school to go to so long as you're willing to work in Houston.

Same goes for SMU in Dallas/Fort Worth. Both of these are good schools but they have much less reach outside their respective city. I suspect it's the same for many 50-100 schools, so be sure the school's in a solid market that you'd be willing to work in.

Now, even if it's in a solid market like LoyChi is, you have to look at what you'll be competing against, i.e., UChicago, Northwestern, UIllinois, Notre Dame, T14 folks who want Chicago. Lots of different considerations and variables.


Doesn't seem like there are a lot of different considerations and variables here. It's just a bad idea to enter a saturated market with a T2 degree.


Yeah, I think that's probably true in LoyChi's case and many others, but I wouldn't generalize to the whole T2.


Point taken.

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BarbellDreams
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby BarbellDreams » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:39 pm

For T2 schools there are 4 simple rules:

1. Be prepared to stay in he region where your school is at.

2. Try and go to a T2 which dominates a secondary market.

3. Dont go at anything close to sticker.

4. Do not plan on biglaw.

BeautifulSW
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby BeautifulSW » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:50 pm

Those are pretty solid tips except that sticker at a T2 state school might be a lot less than you think. University of New Mexico, for instance, is now getting around $40,000 total in-state tuition for all three years. Albuquerque is pretty cheap to live in so you might be able to make sticker work for you.

(It's still a LOT more than I paid, though...)

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smittelman6
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby smittelman6 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:36 pm

i've been trying to get a solid answer to this without a couple of "don't go to law school right now"s thrown in there.

i want to live in san diego. i can go to hastings or university of san diego. i am aware that anyone trying to work in san diego will have competition from UCLA/USC, but i want to believe that a san diego degree in san diego has at least some regional pull. i am NOT looking to do biglaw... i either want to work at a mid or small firm, or something in government (i'm aware that this is a broad statement). i also got a significant schoolly at san diego... do you think it's worth it to spend the extra money on hastings just because it's T1? are the job prospects really as bleak as some people would make them seem for everyone outside of t14?

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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby caligulove » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:16 am

smittelman6 wrote:i've been trying to get a solid answer to this without a couple of "don't go to law school right now"s thrown in there.

i want to live in san diego. i can go to hastings or university of san diego. i am aware that anyone trying to work in san diego will have competition from UCLA/USC, but i want to believe that a san diego degree in san diego has at least some regional pull. i am NOT looking to do biglaw... i either want to work at a mid or small firm, or something in government (i'm aware that this is a broad statement). i also got a significant schoolly at san diego... do you think it's worth it to spend the extra money on hastings just because it's T1? are the job prospects really as bleak as some people would make them seem for everyone outside of t14?


UC Hastings at sticker?... no. T14 at sticker... yes. Anything outside of T14 is not immune to the bad market, so I would suggest you take USD with that scholarship and never look back. UC Hastings will probably not get you to San Diego and probably won't get you outside of the Bay area (nowhere you'd like to go anyway). My advice would be different if it was a T14 which could take you virtually anywhere. I would not risk that amount of money on anything below YHS... alright maybe CLS but that's pushing it.

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BrianGriffintheDog
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby BrianGriffintheDog » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:22 am

Probably do well in a "big law" version in that region.

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pilchc
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby pilchc » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:26 am

If you want to attend a school like U of San Diego, I would suggest visiting the school and talking with some randomly chosen 2Ls and 3Ls. Ask them about the internship opportunities and job prospects they and their classmates have.

I talked to a 3L from U of Seattle -- a school ranked in the 70s or 80s. He said the legal market was the worst it's been in 30+ years, but he and his classmates still expect to find jobs. Of course, they expect those jobs to be local jobs with small to medium size firms. A 2L from the same school said close to same thing. She said she and her classmates don't expect to make 100K the year after school, nor are they certain they will find a job in the specific field they studied for. However, they don't expect to be homeless and destitute after they graduate.

There didn't seem to be widespread panic which some posts on this forum could lead you to expect.

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smittelman6
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby smittelman6 » Tue Feb 15, 2011 12:46 am

pilchc wrote:If you want to attend a school like U of San Diego, I would suggest visiting the school and talking with some randomly chosen 2Ls and 3Ls. Ask them about the internship opportunities and job prospects they and their classmates have.

I talked to a 3L from U of Seattle -- a school ranked in the 70s or 80s. He said the legal market was the worst it's been in 30+ years, but he and his classmates still expect to find jobs. Of course, they expect those jobs to be local jobs with small to medium size firms. A 2L from the same school said close to same thing. She said she and her classmates don't expect to make 100K the year after school, nor are they certain they will find a job in the specific field they studied for. However, they don't expect to be homeless and destitute after they graduate.

There didn't seem to be widespread panic which some posts on this forum could lead you to expect.


this is exactly what i wanted to hear... now i just have to hope it's the truth. i don't by any means expect to be making 100k coming out of a t2 school, but i'd like to be living at least the same lifestyle i was while in school and not be in default on my loans.

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pilchc
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby pilchc » Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:55 am

I don't know what the law market is like in San Diego, nor do I know if that school is comparable with U of Seattle. U Seattle only has one local school to compete with (U of Washington).

I would still strongly recommend talking with some students from U of San Diego.

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romothesavior
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:44 am

dr, adjudicator, and barbell have TCRs, so I don't have much to add other than to reiterate how important it is to realize that not all T2s are the same. Loyola/Kent/DePaul students are probably doing pretty horribly considering how bad the Chicago market is and how many schools feed into it. Other schools in less sought after markets may be doing better.

Also, your assumption that people in the top of those classes are doing okay is not a good assumption. There was just an article on ATL about the editor-in-chief of the law review from one of those schools (I think Kent) being unemployed. And you also shouldn't assume you'll be in the top 10/20/30% or whatever.

I would not go to a T2 with anything less than a full ride, and I'd preferably do it in a market I had strong ties to that isn't oversaturated with competition from surrounding schools.

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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby Fark-o-vision » Tue Feb 15, 2011 2:51 am

smittelman6 wrote:
pilchc wrote:If you want to attend a school like U of San Diego, I would suggest visiting the school and talking with some randomly chosen 2Ls and 3Ls. Ask them about the internship opportunities and job prospects they and their classmates have.

I talked to a 3L from U of Seattle -- a school ranked in the 70s or 80s. He said the legal market was the worst it's been in 30+ years, but he and his classmates still expect to find jobs. Of course, they expect those jobs to be local jobs with small to medium size firms. A 2L from the same school said close to same thing. She said she and her classmates don't expect to make 100K the year after school, nor are they certain they will find a job in the specific field they studied for. However, they don't expect to be homeless and destitute after they graduate.

There didn't seem to be widespread panic which some posts on this forum could lead you to expect.


this is exactly what i wanted to hear... now i just have to hope it's the truth. i don't by any means expect to be making 100k coming out of a t2 school, but i'd like to be living at least the same lifestyle i was while in school and not be in default on my loans.


Be careful of it, though. Despite the profile put together on here, several people have led me to believe that San Diego is not overly attached to the school that bears its name. With the huge pressure UCLA and USC are putting on the market, USD is getting marginalized. Also, they expect UC Irvine to be very aggressive in putting graduates in the area. Add in the handful of Boalt, Stanford and other kids who would take 100k+ for the elite level jobs in San Diego just because it's San Diego and you have a very, very tight market.

This comes from students I met there, most of whom thought it was more likely to find jobs in hometowns and such. San Diego has been squeezed bad.

I think the above scenario probably applies nicely to Loyola Chicago, too, but I haven't heard any real evidence.

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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby Snape » Tue Feb 15, 2011 10:03 am

It really depends on the school--of course! Tulane at half to full scholly if you want to live in amazing NOLA is an amazing option--but it seems the OP has interest in Loyola-Chi which is a very bad option! Very bad option!

With that degree you are hoping to fight for $28/hr contractual part-time legal work with no benefits--some students are even asking firms if they can do volunteer pro-bono work so they have something on their resume. Lets say there are 400 summer associate positions in Chicago (and that is generous in this economy but just to have a base number) Here is what you cant compete with as Loyola student: (now of course not all of these people want chicago but im just gonna toy with some numbers:

Northwestern (125 students of 270 or 300 in a class at OCI)

Chicago (80 students in class of 200 at OCI)

HYS (lets just say 75 of the 950 want Chicago--could very well be much more)

Just from those schools which you have no change competing against already 290/400 positions are taken and that number could be higher...but wait! there is more

Columbia/NYU/Duke/UVA/Penn (lets be very nice and say only 60 of those want Chicago--probably once more) Now you are at 350/400 BUT WAIT!

We still have Gtown/COrnell/Vanderbilt/Notre Dame/WUSTL/Wisconsin/Minn/U of I/Iowa/Inidana---and you know way more than 50 of them want those summer associate jobs in Chicago

Youre chances at Loyola are very slim and you will most likely regret the decision--not to be mean--to be honest becasue Loyola wont be!

Best of luck!

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pilchc
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Re: 50 - 100 schools = what career prosects?

Postby pilchc » Tue Feb 15, 2011 5:24 pm

I wasn't specifically considering Loyola Chi, but I was looking at full rides from schools which I thought were comparable with it. Apparently they are not though, because their regional markets have less competition.

Fortunately, my numbers are good enough that I'm getting acceptances from some T14 schools. I abhor the idea of taking out 150K in debt, but in the long run, it might be better than a full ride from a Tier 2 school.

I was also offered a full ride by U of Illinois. Is that a bad deal too?




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