How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

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BeachandRun23
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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby BeachandRun23 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:43 am

Veyron wrote:Firms only like school variety if they already have a bunch of people from other top schools tho. If vandy kids really aren't competing against T-14 grads, I don't see why variety would come in2 play.


I get the impression that more vandy kids head to secondary markets in the south than do kids of most T14 schools. I also think that Vandy tends to spread their grads out rather focus almost exclusively on one or two major markets which helps their placement.

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ahduth
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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby ahduth » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:47 am

Veyron wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I'm not going to say too much about this post but...

FYI Skadden is definitely not one of the harder NYC firms to get. In fact they may be the easiest of the "big time" NYC firms to break into. The hardest are generally considered to be Wachtell, Sullivan, Cleary, and Cravath.

And the bolded just isn't true for anything other than NYC law firm hiring. For anything else it's essentially HYS and then the rest of the top 14 is going to vary by region/grades. I know it seems hard to believe now, but there are legal career paths other than working in a big NYC firm--contrary to popular TLS belief.


This is, for the most part, true. I would further posit that what schools are better than others actually can very employer-by-employer.


Definitely - it was pointed out to me that even for a school like UVA, you can be at an advantage with some firms such as King and Spalding who have large alumni networks because they're based in the south. As far as Skadden, yeah I had thought they were in that group. If they're among the easiest with that class size... fun times lie ahead for those of us planning on doing corporate transactional work. :D

It's obviously silly to say that every firm has an identical profile they look for, or an identical approach to hiring. But what you seem to be proposing here is that for a firm such as King and Spalding, two schools such as Michigan and NYU, neither of which I'm guessing have particularly strong alumni networks within the firm, will be viewed in essentially the same light.

If this is the proposal, I guess I'd like to know on what basis we're going to claim it. I (demonstrably) have at best a tenuous understanding of how these firms are conducting their searches. But your idea that non-New York firms all have a view of the non-HYS T14 that completely scrambles the existing rankings is to me a rather forward position based on everything else I've heard. Basically, what is your basis for saying that?

It's easy to knock down the TLS received wisdom as baseless internet parroting of rankings and statistics. But for people who are attempting to choose between sticker and scholarships at T6 schools and MVP, or MVP and Cornell, it's necessary to take somewhat of a macro view as to how these schools are viewed. If that macro view is wrong, then those of us approaching this choice need to understand how it is wrong.

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Veyron
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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:57 am

ahduth wrote:
Veyron wrote:
BruceWayne wrote:I'm not going to say too much about this post but...

FYI Skadden is definitely not one of the harder NYC firms to get. In fact they may be the easiest of the "big time" NYC firms to break into. The hardest are generally considered to be Wachtell, Sullivan, Cleary, and Cravath.

And the bolded just isn't true for anything other than NYC law firm hiring. For anything else it's essentially HYS and then the rest of the top 14 is going to vary by region/grades. I know it seems hard to believe now, but there are legal career paths other than working in a big NYC firm--contrary to popular TLS belief.


This is, for the most part, true. I would further posit that what schools are better than others actually can very employer-by-employer.


Definitely - it was pointed out to me that even for a school like UVA, you can be at an advantage with some firms such as King and Spalding who have large alumni networks because they're based in the south. As far as Skadden, yeah I had thought they were in that group. If they're among the easiest with that class size... fun times lie ahead for those of us planning on doing corporate transactional work. :D

It's obviously silly to say that every firm has an identical profile they look for, or an identical approach to hiring. But what you seem to be proposing here is that for a firm such as King and Spalding, two schools such as Michigan and NYU, neither of which I'm guessing have particularly strong alumni networks within the firm, will be viewed in essentially the same light.

If this is the proposal, I guess I'd like to know on what basis we're going to claim it. I (demonstrably) have at best a tenuous understanding of how these firms are conducting their searches. But your idea that non-New York firms all have a view of the non-HYS T14 that completely scrambles the existing rankings is to me a rather forward position based on everything else I've heard. Basically, what is your basis for saying that?

It's easy to knock down the TLS received wisdom as baseless internet parroting of rankings and statistics. But for people who are attempting to choose between sticker and scholarships at T6 schools and MVP, or MVP and Cornell, it's necessary to take somewhat of a macro view as to how these schools are viewed. If that macro view is wrong, then those of us approaching this choice need to understand how it is wrong.


I mean, I guess I just did it the old fashioned way and talked to biglaw partners about comparative placement before sending in my deposit, but your way of just making a bunch of strange logical inferences works too.

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ahduth
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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby ahduth » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:37 am

Veyron wrote:I mean, I guess I just did it the old fashioned way and talked to biglaw partners about comparative placement before sending in my deposit, but your way of just making a bunch of strange logical inferences works too.


Did you just call them up? I only know associates, and only in New York and Chicago. I'd love to talk to some partners about this stuff though.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby keg411 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:55 am

ahduth wrote:
Veyron wrote:I mean, I guess I just did it the old fashioned way and talked to biglaw partners about comparative placement before sending in my deposit, but your way of just making a bunch of strange logical inferences works too.


Did you just call them up? I only know associates, and only in New York and Chicago. I'd love to talk to some partners about this stuff though.


I had lunch with a BigLaw partner yesterday (non-NY/Chicago). He didn't even know how much of the SA process and BigLaw hiring happened after your first year with two semesters of grades. I don't know if most BigLaw partners know any more than associates (in fact, they probably know less since at least some of the young associates have been through OCI recently) unless they're directly involved in recruiting.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby JazzOne » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:01 pm

keg411 wrote:
ahduth wrote:
Veyron wrote:I mean, I guess I just did it the old fashioned way and talked to biglaw partners about comparative placement before sending in my deposit, but your way of just making a bunch of strange logical inferences works too.


Did you just call them up? I only know associates, and only in New York and Chicago. I'd love to talk to some partners about this stuff though.


I had lunch with a BigLaw partner yesterday (non-NY/Chicago). He didn't even know how much of the SA process and BigLaw hiring happened after your first year with two semesters of grades. I don't know if most BigLaw partners know any more than associates (in fact, they probably know less since at least some of the young associates have been through OCI recently) unless they're directly involved in recruiting.

I spoke with a partner from a V10 firm a few days ago. She has been an attorney for 30 years, and she could not have been more clueless about the current hiring market. I don't mean that as an insult at all. She was very nice and very successful. But she was also quite removed from the hiring process, and she didn't seem to understand how tough it is. She attended a TTT. My impression is that the changes in this profession over the last couple decades are so profound that you can't really trust the judgment of older attorneys when it comes to hiring, unless you're talking to an actual hiring partner.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby keg411 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 12:29 pm

The only plus side is that the partner I spoke to (who went to YHS back in the 80's) is now curious about hiring and is going to talk to the Hiring Partner about it more in general. The only people at firms who really know about the difference between schools are those directly involved in recruiting.

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ahduth
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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby ahduth » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:38 pm

keg411 wrote:The only plus side is that the partner I spoke to (who went to YHS back in the 80's) is now curious about hiring and is going to talk to the Hiring Partner about it more in general. The only people at firms who really know about the difference between schools are those directly involved in recruiting.


Yeah, the associates I've been talking to do EIW interviews every year. I've only been asking them about my situation obviously, but they're pretty set about the T6 thing. It could very well just be New York, but they're firm about taking T6 over the rest of the T14 even with money. I'm guessing they'd be just as firm about taking MVP over Cornell, I'll have to ask.

twistedwrister
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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby twistedwrister » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:02 pm

I'm a 3L at NYU. Let me weigh-in on the NYU v. MVP debate. I think it's very possible that outside of NYC, it's basically HYS + the rest of the t14. However, for someone who wants biglaw, NYU is a still stronger school than MVP because so many of the biglaw jobs are in NYC. In other words, even if someone isn't set on working in NY, NYC is the best "fallback" for biglaw. Say Jane wants to work in biglaw, ideally in Chicago. She gets into Virginia and NYU, but not U. Chicago. If her goal is biglaw, ideally in Chicago, she might be better served by picking NYU. Both NYU and UVA give her about the same shot at Chicago biglaw, but NYU gives her a better shot at biglaw in general, so long as she's willing to work in NYC. If Jane hates NYC and would rather work in the south (assuming she can't get Chicago biglaw), then UVA might be the better choice.

I do find it interesting that last year's EIW (or whatever they call it) numbers from MVP haven't come out, even informally, while both CLS (67%) and NYU (~70%) provided their students with the data. To me, this suggests that either (1) their placement wasn't too good, so the schools didn't give the data to the students, or (2) MVP students got the data, but it wasn't impressive so no one has shared it.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Frankie55 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 3:17 pm

twistedwrister wrote:I do find it interesting that last year's EIW (or whatever they call it) numbers from MVP haven't come out, even informally, while both CLS (67%) and NYU (~70%) provided their students with the data. To me, this suggests that either (1) their placement wasn't too good, so the schools didn't give the data to the students, or (2) MVP students got the data, but it wasn't impressive so no one has shared it.


Are those percentages for biglaw, or for total OCI hires?

Thread is starting to give some logical weight to my emotional desire to stay in NYC over taking significant $ at MVP.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:27 pm

ahduth wrote:
Veyron wrote:I mean, I guess I just did it the old fashioned way and talked to biglaw partners about comparative placement before sending in my deposit, but your way of just making a bunch of strange logical inferences works too.


Did you just call them up? I only know associates, and only in New York and Chicago. I'd love to talk to some partners about this stuff though.


Set up talks via connections. Its worth noting that NONE of the people I spoke to about comparative placement were NYC partners (other major and secondary markets were represented). YMMV.

I have spoken to NYC partners about placement in general tho.

"I spoke with a partner from a V10 firm a few days ago. She has been an attorney for 30 years, and she could not have been more clueless about the current hiring market. I don't mean that as an insult at all. She was very nice and very successful. But she was also quite removed from the hiring process, and she didn't seem to understand how tough it is. She attended a TTT. My impression is that the changes in this profession over the last couple decades are so profound that you can't really trust the judgment of older attorneys when it comes to hiring, unless you're talking to an actual hiring partner."

Don't want to be too out-self ish but some had connections to hiring.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby showNprove » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:50 pm

twistedwrister wrote:I do find it interesting that last year's EIW (or whatever they call it) numbers from MVP haven't come out, even informally, while both CLS (67%) and NYU (~70%) provided their students with the data. To me, this suggests that either (1) their placement wasn't too good, so the schools didn't give the data to the students, or (2) MVP students got the data, but it wasn't impressive so no one has shared it.

UVA hasn't done any student surveys yet. I don't think the school even knows the numbers right now.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby AreJay711 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:03 pm

I do know for a fact that the most prestigious vault firms do prefer NYU students to MVP students but this doesn't really apply to other biglaw firms. Basically, if you are towards the top of you class but not at the very top, CCN>MVP but other than that it is a wash. If both are sticker, that is plenty of reason to take CCN but I think it is silly to make decisions about what gives you the best chance at a V5 or V10 firm over geographic and money considerations.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby twistedwrister » Sat Feb 12, 2011 5:58 pm

Frankie55 wrote:
twistedwrister wrote:I do find it interesting that last year's EIW (or whatever they call it) numbers from MVP haven't come out, even informally, while both CLS (67%) and NYU (~70%) provided their students with the data. To me, this suggests that either (1) their placement wasn't too good, so the schools didn't give the data to the students, or (2) MVP students got the data, but it wasn't impressive so no one has shared it.


Are those percentages for biglaw, or for total OCI hires?

Thread is starting to give some logical weight to my emotional desire to stay in NYC over taking significant $ at MVP.


The NYU number is % of students who got at least one offer from EIW. EIW is the 3-4 day program where most of the law firm hiring is done. There were a few non-firm employers (gov. agencies) at EIW, but the vast majority were biglaw firms. You can still get a firm job outside of EIW, but it's a lot more difficult. I think the Columbia number measured the same thing, but I'm not positive about that.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby twistedwrister » Sat Feb 12, 2011 6:11 pm

showNprove wrote:
twistedwrister wrote:I do find it interesting that last year's EIW (or whatever they call it) numbers from MVP haven't come out, even informally, while both CLS (67%) and NYU (~70%) provided their students with the data. To me, this suggests that either (1) their placement wasn't too good, so the schools didn't give the data to the students, or (2) MVP students got the data, but it wasn't impressive so no one has shared it.

UVA hasn't done any student surveys yet. I don't think the school even knows the numbers right now.


That strikes me as extremely irresponsible on the part of the school. At the very least, the school should want that data in order to appropriately advise its students about employment prospects, where to bid, what to expect, etc. Also, what does the school say when admitted students ask about employment numbers? "Sorry, we don't know how our students are faring in this job market, but we have some data from a few years ago if you like..."

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby showNprove » Sat Feb 12, 2011 8:47 pm

twistedwrister wrote:
showNprove wrote:
twistedwrister wrote:I do find it interesting that last year's EIW (or whatever they call it) numbers from MVP haven't come out, even informally, while both CLS (67%) and NYU (~70%) provided their students with the data. To me, this suggests that either (1) their placement wasn't too good, so the schools didn't give the data to the students, or (2) MVP students got the data, but it wasn't impressive so no one has shared it.

UVA hasn't done any student surveys yet. I don't think the school even knows the numbers right now.


That strikes me as extremely irresponsible on the part of the school. At the very least, the school should want that data in order to appropriately advise its students about employment prospects, where to bid, what to expect, etc. Also, what does the school say when admitted students ask about employment numbers? "Sorry, we don't know how our students are faring in this job market, but we have some data from a few years ago if you like..."

Seriously? There is no one bidding right now. No advice about 2011 OGI needs to be given out until May or this summer. 1L's shouldn't be worried about finding a 2L job yet--they should be worried about class, journals, and 1L jobs (which OGI has no bearing on).

As far as current 2L's and 3L's are concerned, no one should care whether 50% or 75% of the class got a job through OGI. It has no bearing on an individual. Right now the CSO is busting its butt by working with unemployed individuals and reaching out to potential employers. The CSO shouldn't be, and isn't, focused on gathering past data that has no proprietary interest for current students.

"Oh wow, 70% of my classmates got a job through OGI. I guess that means there's a job out there for me. Better start looking." :roll:

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby FiveSermon » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:26 pm

Probably around 10%?

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby twistedwrister » Sat Feb 12, 2011 9:35 pm

^ That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. In my opinion, it's ridiculous that UVA, or any school for that matter, isn't gathering employment data about it's students. It's not just about telling some 2L or 3L how to get a job, or telling everyone "50% of our students got an offer from OGI"; it's about understanding the state of the legal employment market right now -- what regions/firms aren't hiring as many UVA students as they used to? What can we do about that? How are we going to adjust next year? How many of our students are still looking for a job? Which students are still looking for a job? What sort of grades does it take for our students to get an offer from firm X in this economy? All of this is, or should be, useful information for a school's OCS.

Also, it takes next to no effort to gather this data. Send a mass e-mail, or set-up an online survey. There should still be plenty of time left in the day to assist students with individual job searches.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby showNprove » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:10 pm

twistedwrister wrote:^ That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. In my opinion, it's ridiculous that UVA, or any school for that matter, isn't gathering employment data about it's students. It's not just about telling some 2L or 3L how to get a job, or telling everyone "50% of our students got an offer from OGI"; it's about understanding the state of the legal employment market right now -- what regions/firms aren't hiring as many UVA students as they used to? What can we do about that? How are we going to adjust next year? How many of our students are still looking for a job? Which students are still looking for a job? What sort of grades does it take for our students to get an offer from firm X in this economy? All of this is, or should be, useful information for a school's OCS.

Also, it takes next to no effort to gather this data. Send a mass e-mail, or set-up an online survey. There should still be plenty of time left in the day to assist students with individual job searches.

From all accounts, UVA's OCS has been the most driven, most effective, and most involved in the entire country. That no surveys have been done about OGI--and hiring for this year is by no means finished, so any survey would yield an incomplete picture (possibly a distorted one)--does not mean that the OCS in not in tune with all the factors/issues you listed above.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:13 pm

twistedwrister wrote:^ That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. In my opinion, it's ridiculous that UVA, or any school for that matter, isn't gathering employment data about it's students. It's not just about telling some 2L or 3L how to get a job, or telling everyone "50% of our students got an offer from OGI"; it's about understanding the state of the legal employment market right now -- what regions/firms aren't hiring as many UVA students as they used to? What can we do about that? How are we going to adjust next year? How many of our students are still looking for a job? Which students are still looking for a job? What sort of grades does it take for our students to get an offer from firm X in this economy? All of this is, or should be, useful information for a school's OCS.

Also, it takes next to no effort to gather this data. Send a mass e-mail, or set-up an online survey. There should still be plenty of time left in the day to assist students with individual job searches.


Penn collects numbers on total % who end up with an SA - its just password protected and the numbers for the most recent cycle haven't come out yet.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby twistedwrister » Sat Feb 12, 2011 11:59 pm

showNprove wrote:From all accounts, UVA's OCS has been the most driven, most effective, and most involved in the entire country. That no surveys have been done about OGI--and hiring for this year is by no means finished, so any survey would yield an incomplete picture (possibly a distorted one)--does not mean that the OCS in not in tune with all the factors/issues you listed above.


You obviously love your OCS, which is great, but how in the world would you know how it compares to the rest of the law schools in the country? Also, I find it hard to believe that any OCS can truly be "in tune" with employment issues when it doesn't know how many of its students have jobs, what kind of jobs they have, etc.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby dabbadon8 » Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:29 am

I really think that any argument between MVPBDN is pointless and all differences are due to self-selection and statistical noise. Not enough of a difference in placement to make you choose one over another. Scholarship money, fit and geographic location would all matter more. I think CCN placement numbers are higher then MVPBDN largely because of their location which leads them to feed into certain firms in large numbers. The slightly higher prestige may result in the better placement in the very top firms but I would guess it matter less once you get outside of the V10 or so. As for cornell, I have seen numbers for the last couple years from 40% to 60%. One year above MVP by 10% one year below by 10%. Basically I think it is some what of a wash. Things vary year to year. Especially at a school as small as cornell, if there happens to be a couple more people interested in public interest and a few extra bad interviewers in a certain class you could see a 5% drop in placement into the nlj250 that year which won't really mean anything to their overall placement ability.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby showNprove » Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:48 am

twistedwrister wrote:
showNprove wrote:From all accounts, UVA's OCS has been the most driven, most effective, and most involved in the entire country. That no surveys have been done about OGI--and hiring for this year is by no means finished, so any survey would yield an incomplete picture (possibly a distorted one)--does not mean that the OCS in not in tune with all the factors/issues you listed above.


You obviously love your OCS, which is great, but how in the world would you know how it compares to the rest of the law schools in the country? Also, I find it hard to believe that any OCS can truly be "in tune" with employment issues when it doesn't know how many of its students have jobs, what kind of jobs they have, etc.

All of my impressions are of course from talking to other people and reading this board. I believe Columbia had a long thread complaining about its OCS, despite having such pinpoint data about how its OGI turned out. I don't hear these kinds of complaints at UVA, even from students who don't yet have a job.

There are ways other than OGI surveys to know what's going on out there. UVA's OCS is extremely active, talking everyday to students and employers.

Yes, I love my OCS because it played such a big role in helping me land a great job this summer. It's the most effective administrative office we have, IMO.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Grizz » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:13 am

twistedwrister wrote:^ That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it.


Duh

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby twistedwrister » Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:45 am

showNprove wrote:All of my impressions are of course from talking to other people and reading this board. I believe Columbia had a long thread complaining about its OCS, despite having such pinpoint data about how its OGI turned out. I don't hear these kinds of complaints at UVA, even from students who don't yet have a job.

There are ways other than OGI surveys to know what's going on out there. UVA's OCS is extremely active, talking everyday to students and employers.

Yes, I love my OCS because it played such a big role in helping me land a great job this summer. It's the most effective administrative office we have, IMO.


Congrats on your job, and I understand where you're coming from. I have no reason to doubt that UVA's OCS is working hard to get its students jobs. I just think they are handicapping themselves by failing to gather easily accessible employment data from their students. Let me give you a real-life example. A buddy of mine at NYU struck out during 2L EIW. He didn't take the initiative to go to OCS because he was embarrased and thought he could find a job on his own (mass mailing, etc.). Because he submitted an employment survey to OCS, OCS knew he was still looking for a job, where he was looking, what firms had already turned him down, etc. They reached out to him when they became aware of an opening that matched his qualifications (GPA, location, etc.), and he got the job. OCS couldn't have done this without surveying the students.




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