How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

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Kswizzie
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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Kswizzie » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:47 pm

Don't simply look at the 2009 NLJ numbers: look at 2006, 2007, 2008 that will give you a better picture of Cornell's relative placement and discredit those that say Cornell = Vandy.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Grizz » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:48 pm

bk1 wrote:
rad law wrote:For 2010 (the only semi-comparable data we have, though this Cornell data does not reflect no-offers while the Vandy data does), Cornell is probably gonna edge out Vandy in NLJ250. For Vandy, because of its rep in the South and that a lot of people will end up working down South, especially at well-paying "midlaw" firms that recruit 2Ls but don't show up on the NLJ250, the difference will be nuanced. No reason to think that Cornell wouldn't do better in NY thanks for their historical relation to NY. But if you aren't set on NY, these two schools might be fairly comparable.

Of course, we'll see the "newest" NLJ data quite soon (remember, this all happens pretty far in the past)

Vandy and Cornell are probably fairly comparable, but to say Vandy is up there with MVP is just silly.

TL;DR - we'll see the differences between Cornell and Vandy when NLJ250 comes out, but Vandy is more like Cornell than MVP.


I didn't realize that about the no-offers, but I agree with all the points you've raised.


Yeah, the Cornell data = OCI, the Vandy data = who actually got the jobs (I would wager that it's the 9 months after graduation employed statistic, though it doesn't say in the booklet).

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby jeremysen » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:48 pm

bk1 wrote:
Juff wrote:
Snape wrote:For Bigfirm placement Vandy is much more aligned to Mich/NU/Penn/UVA/Duke and better than Cornell--just look at date--I dont really care or have anything for Vandy--its just basic knowledge of bigfirm placement and data.


...source?


The data for both Vandy and Cornell have been released a bit, iirc.

Cornell - http://abovethelaw.com/2010/07/biglaw-e ... -a-debate/

Vandy - viewtopic.php?f=1&t=147068

I don't see what Snape is seeing.


+1

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Grizz » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:49 pm

Kswizzie wrote:Don't simply look at the 2009 NLJ numbers: look at 2006, 2007, 2008 that will give you a better picture of Cornell's relative placement and discredit those that say Cornell = Vandy.


Also, be sure to look at the 2010. It will be the first indication of the "new economy"

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:49 pm

rad law wrote:Yeah, the Cornell data = OCI, the Vandy data = who actually got the jobs (I would wager that it's the 9 months after graduation employed statistic, though it doesn't say in the booklet).

Oh yeah, that's pretty obvious. It had been a while since I actually looked at the Cornell data so I had forgotten it was OCI and not graduation.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 5:51 pm

rad law wrote:
Kswizzie wrote:Don't simply look at the 2009 NLJ numbers: look at 2006, 2007, 2008 that will give you a better picture of Cornell's relative placement and discredit those that say Cornell = Vandy.


Also, be sure to look at the 2010. It will be the first indication of the "new economy"


This. To say that Cornell is definitively better than Vandy because of the mid-2000's is ignoring ITE.

Maybe Cornell's historical prestige/placement will allow it to pull back on top some day and be solidly better than Vandy, maybe not. The point is that doesn't matter to 0L's who will be doing OCI very shortly in 2012.

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Kswizzie
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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Kswizzie » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:01 pm

bk1 wrote:
rad law wrote:
Kswizzie wrote:Don't simply look at the 2009 NLJ numbers: look at 2006, 2007, 2008 that will give you a better picture of Cornell's relative placement and discredit those that say Cornell = Vandy.


Also, be sure to look at the 2010. It will be the first indication of the "new economy"


This. To say that Cornell is definitively better than Vandy because of the mid-2000's is ignoring ITE.

Maybe Cornell's historical prestige/placement will allow it to pull back on top some day and be solidly better than Vandy, maybe not. The point is that doesn't matter to 0L's who will be doing OCI very shortly in 2012.


Are the c/o 2010 NLJ numbers out yet? Nevertheless, you should not choose to go to Vandy over Cornell based on the 09 numbers those also tell you to choose MVP over NYU.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Grizz » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:06 pm

Kswizzie wrote:
bk1 wrote:
rad law wrote:
Kswizzie wrote:Don't simply look at the 2009 NLJ numbers: look at 2006, 2007, 2008 that will give you a better picture of Cornell's relative placement and discredit those that say Cornell = Vandy.


Also, be sure to look at the 2010. It will be the first indication of the "new economy"


This. To say that Cornell is definitively better than Vandy because of the mid-2000's is ignoring ITE.

Maybe Cornell's historical prestige/placement will allow it to pull back on top some day and be solidly better than Vandy, maybe not. The point is that doesn't matter to 0L's who will be doing OCI very shortly in 2012.


Are the c/o 2010 NLJ numbers out yet? Nevertheless, you should not choose to go to Vandy over Cornell based on the 09 numbers those also tell you to choose MVP over NYU.


2010 isn't out yet.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby ahduth » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:06 pm

Kswizzie wrote:Are the c/o 2010 NLJ numbers out yet? Nevertheless, you should not choose to go to Vandy over Cornell based on the 09 numbers those also tell you to choose MVP over NYU.


lol @ MVP over NYU. The single-mindedness with which people use these placement numbers to dictate their choice of school is farcical.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:06 pm

rad law wrote:
Kswizzie wrote:Are the c/o 2010 NLJ numbers out yet? Nevertheless, you should not choose to go to Vandy over Cornell based on the 09 numbers those also tell you to choose MVP over NYU.


2010 isn't out yet.


Later this month.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Kswizzie » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:43 pm

bk1 wrote:
rad law wrote:
Kswizzie wrote:Are the c/o 2010 NLJ numbers out yet? Nevertheless, you should not choose to go to Vandy over Cornell based on the 09 numbers those also tell you to choose MVP over NYU.


2010 isn't out yet.


Later this month.


Exciting

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:44 pm

Kswizzie wrote:Exciting


Yay for old data! Can the law schools please just respond to LST? Fuck my life.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby keg411 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:51 pm

bk1 wrote:
rad law wrote:
Kswizzie wrote:Don't simply look at the 2009 NLJ numbers: look at 2006, 2007, 2008 that will give you a better picture of Cornell's relative placement and discredit those that say Cornell = Vandy.


Also, be sure to look at the 2010. It will be the first indication of the "new economy"


This. To say that Cornell is definitively better than Vandy because of the mid-2000's is ignoring ITE.

Maybe Cornell's historical prestige/placement will allow it to pull back on top some day and be solidly better than Vandy, maybe not. The point is that doesn't matter to 0L's who will be doing OCI very shortly in 2012.


And people who say this are ignoring the fact that NYC is recovering significantly faster than most other secondary markets... I would bet that Cornell will outplace Vandy once the ITE numbers really start appearing.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 9:54 pm

keg411 wrote:
And people who say this are ignoring the fact that NYC is recovering significantly faster than most other secondary markets... I would bet that Cornell will outplace Vandy once the ITE numbers really start appearing.


I think so too, but Vandy places a lot in NYC as well. I'm just not thoroughly convinced that Cornell is going to handily thrash Vandy as I think that is going a bit far.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby KMaine » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:02 pm

To answer OP, there is a gap, I don't think it is big enough to justify turning down significant money at Cornell for the others. For me, the same is true of Cornell/Vandy, I think Cornell is the safer bet with even money (maybe slightly better placement, better chance at more elite firms and clerkships), but you would not be crazy to take Vandy over Cornell with similar $.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby BruceWayne » Fri Feb 11, 2011 10:08 pm

ahduth wrote:
Kswizzie wrote:Are the c/o 2010 NLJ numbers out yet? Nevertheless, you should not choose to go to Vandy over Cornell based on the 09 numbers those also tell you to choose MVP over NYU.


lol @ MVP over NYU. The single-mindedness with which people use these placement numbers to dictate their choice of school is farcical.


You've been on this website too long. Outside of working at a NYC firm, there's no difference between NYU and MVP. Let alone enough of a difference to say "lol @ MVP over NYU". Realistically, for any other job most employers won't even know that NYU is ranked six in US News and the other 3 aren't. Besides, the idea that it's easier to get a job from NYU is something that's based entirely on internet hearsay and US News rankings. There's no hard data on the subject because none of these schools release any.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby BeachandRun23 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:24 am

bk1 wrote:
keg411 wrote:
And people who say this are ignoring the fact that NYC is recovering significantly faster than most other secondary markets... I would bet that Cornell will outplace Vandy once the ITE numbers really start appearing.


I think so too, but Vandy places a lot in NYC as well. I'm just not thoroughly convinced that Cornell is going to handily thrash Vandy as I think that is going a bit far.


Vandy also places alot of grads in southern markets/secondary markets and I think they tend to gobble up biglaw jobs in cities that are not normally desired by T14 kids. While they have been doing well in NYC too, their ability to spread their grads out and maintain a SMALL class size is what really helps them place so well.

Cornell sends sooooooo many grads to NYC, and the remaining few to Chicago or DC.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby ahduth » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:35 am

BruceWayne wrote:
ahduth wrote:
Kswizzie wrote:Are the c/o 2010 NLJ numbers out yet? Nevertheless, you should not choose to go to Vandy over Cornell based on the 09 numbers those also tell you to choose MVP over NYU.


lol @ MVP over NYU. The single-mindedness with which people use these placement numbers to dictate their choice of school is farcical.


You've been on this website too long. Outside of working at a NYC firm, there's no difference between NYU and MVP. Let alone enough of a difference to say "lol @ MVP over NYU". Realistically, for any other job most employers won't even know that NYU is ranked six in US News and the other 3 aren't. Besides, the idea that it's easier to get a job from NYU is something that's based entirely on internet hearsay and US News rankings. There's no hard data on the subject because none of these schools release any.


My viewpoint is admittedly very NY-centric. I've been told by multiple associates at various NY firms that once you're admitted to a top five school (including NYU in their book), that you really shouldn't consider anything else, barring perhaps a Darrow. The one Skadden third year I talked with took 90k to go to UVA, but she said she would take NYU or Columbia at sticker faced with the same decision today. Skadden's class size has shrunk from something like 140 when she joined to 35 now, or something on that order (I can't remember the exact numbers). Her comment was that it still leaves them space to take multiple people from both New York schools, but fewer from schools further down.

This is all anecdotes I'm getting via a couple friends of mine from college who are now senior associates with New York firms, so there's no hard data. That being said, there doesn't seem to be any question in their minds that NYU and Columbia (and the rest of the top six) are in a separate tier from schools like Michigan. And Skadden is admittedly one of the hardest firms to get into. You're going to have a shot with a firm of some kind in New York out of any T14 school. The point, however, is that the US News rankings have nothing to do with it. The people doing the hiring view top five/T6 schools differently, much as they view T14 schools differently than the rest of the first tier schools. If someone is looking at the 09 NLJ numbers and thinking MVP puts them in a better position than NYU does, they have another thing coming.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:37 am

My impression is that there is a (somewhere between) 10-20% placement gap for biglaw between P and C. Probably less with M.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby keg411 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:37 am

BeachandRun23 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
keg411 wrote:
And people who say this are ignoring the fact that NYC is recovering significantly faster than most other secondary markets... I would bet that Cornell will outplace Vandy once the ITE numbers really start appearing.


I think so too, but Vandy places a lot in NYC as well. I'm just not thoroughly convinced that Cornell is going to handily thrash Vandy as I think that is going a bit far.


Vandy also places alot of grads in southern markets/secondary markets and I think they tend to gobble up biglaw jobs in cities that are not normally desired by T14 kids. While they have been doing well in NYC too, their ability to spread their grads out and maintain a SMALL class size is what really helps them place so well.

Cornell sends sooooooo many grads to NYC, and the remaining few to Chicago or DC.


Vandy and Cornell have the same class size -- both are slightly under 200.

Also, NYC is actually hiring right now. The secondary markets... not so much.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:43 am

BeachandRun23 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
keg411 wrote:
And people who say this are ignoring the fact that NYC is recovering significantly faster than most other secondary markets... I would bet that Cornell will outplace Vandy once the ITE numbers really start appearing.


I think so too, but Vandy places a lot in NYC as well. I'm just not thoroughly convinced that Cornell is going to handily thrash Vandy as I think that is going a bit far.


Vandy also places alot of grads in southern markets/secondary markets and I think they tend to gobble up biglaw jobs in cities that are not normally desired by T14 kids. While they have been doing well in NYC too, their ability to spread their grads out and maintain a SMALL class size is what really helps them place so well.

Cornell sends sooooooo many grads to NYC, and the remaining few to Chicago or DC.


There are very few genuine Biglaw, or even NLJ 250 jobs in this country that are not desired by at least some T-14 grads. Lots of kids would be happy to go home and make good money.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby BruceWayne » Sat Feb 12, 2011 1:59 am

ahduth wrote:My viewpoint is admittedly very NY-centric. I've been told by multiple associates at various NY firms that once you're admitted to a top five school (including NYU in their book), that you really shouldn't consider anything else, barring perhaps a Darrow. The one Skadden third year I talked with took 90k to go to UVA, but she said she would take NYU or Columbia at sticker faced with the same decision today. Skadden's class size has shrunk from something like 140 when she joined to 35 now, or something on that order (I can't remember the exact numbers). Her comment was that it still leaves them space to take multiple people from both New York schools, but fewer from schools further down.

This is all anecdotes I'm getting via a couple friends of mine from college who are now senior associates with New York firms, so there's no hard data. That being said, there doesn't seem to be any question in their minds that NYU and Columbia (and the rest of the top six) are in a separate tier from schools like Michigan. And Skadden is admittedly one of the hardest firms to get into. You're going to have a shot with a firm of some kind in New York out of any T14 school. The point, however, is that the US News rankings have nothing to do with it. The people doing the hiring view top five/T6 schools differently, much as they view T14 schools differently than the rest of the first tier schools. If someone is looking at the 09 NLJ numbers and thinking MVP puts them in a better position than NYU does, they have another thing coming.


I'm not going to say too much about this post but...

FYI Skadden is definitely not one of the harder NYC firms to get. In fact they may be the easiest of the "big time" NYC firms to break into. The hardest are generally considered to be Wachtell, Sullivan, Cleary, and Cravath.

And the bolded just isn't true for anything other than NYC law firm hiring. For anything else it's essentially HYS and then the rest of the top 14 is going to vary by region/grades. I know it seems hard to believe now, but there are legal career paths other than working in a big NYC firm--contrary to popular TLS belief.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 12, 2011 2:02 am

BruceWayne wrote:
ahduth wrote:My viewpoint is admittedly very NY-centric. I've been told by multiple associates at various NY firms that once you're admitted to a top five school (including NYU in their book), that you really shouldn't consider anything else, barring perhaps a Darrow. The one Skadden third year I talked with took 90k to go to UVA, but she said she would take NYU or Columbia at sticker faced with the same decision today. Skadden's class size has shrunk from something like 140 when she joined to 35 now, or something on that order (I can't remember the exact numbers). Her comment was that it still leaves them space to take multiple people from both New York schools, but fewer from schools further down.

This is all anecdotes I'm getting via a couple friends of mine from college who are now senior associates with New York firms, so there's no hard data. That being said, there doesn't seem to be any question in their minds that NYU and Columbia (and the rest of the top six) are in a separate tier from schools like Michigan. And Skadden is admittedly one of the hardest firms to get into. You're going to have a shot with a firm of some kind in New York out of any T14 school. The point, however, is that the US News rankings have nothing to do with it. The people doing the hiring view top five/T6 schools differently, much as they view T14 schools differently than the rest of the first tier schools. If someone is looking at the 09 NLJ numbers and thinking MVP puts them in a better position than NYU does, they have another thing coming.


I'm not going to say too much about this post but...

FYI Skadden is definitely not one of the harder NYC firms to get. In fact they may be the easiest of the "big time" NYC firms to break into. The hardest are generally considered to be Wachtell, Sullivan, Cleary, and Cravath.

And the bolded just isn't true for anything other than NYC law firm hiring. For anything else it's essentially HYS and then the rest of the top 14 is going to vary by region/grades. I know it seems hard to believe now, but there are legal career paths other than working in a big NYC firm--contrary to popular TLS belief.


This is, for the most part, true. I would further posit that what schools are better than others actually can very employer-by-employer.

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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby BeachandRun23 » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:09 am

Veyron wrote:
BeachandRun23 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
keg411 wrote:
And people who say this are ignoring the fact that NYC is recovering significantly faster than most other secondary markets... I would bet that Cornell will outplace Vandy once the ITE numbers really start appearing.


I think so too, but Vandy places a lot in NYC as well. I'm just not thoroughly convinced that Cornell is going to handily thrash Vandy as I think that is going a bit far.


Vandy also places alot of grads in southern markets/secondary markets and I think they tend to gobble up biglaw jobs in cities that are not normally desired by T14 kids. While they have been doing well in NYC too, their ability to spread their grads out and maintain a SMALL class size is what really helps them place so well.

Cornell sends sooooooo many grads to NYC, and the remaining few to Chicago or DC.


There are very few genuine Biglaw, or even NLJ 250 jobs in this country that are not desired by at least some T-14 grads. Lots of kids would be happy to go home and make good money.


I understand but all I was trying to say was that Cornell sends about 100 grads to NYC every year. Therefore, they flood the market. Vandy sends about 35 grads tp NYC, a few to atlanta, a few to texas, a few to nashville...etc. Theyre more spread out which helps you get jobs when youre not competing with 50 other kids from your school. Firms like diversity.

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Veyron
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Re: How big is the gap between MVP and Cornell in regards to job

Postby Veyron » Sat Feb 12, 2011 4:24 am

[/quote]

There are very few genuine Biglaw, or even NLJ 250 jobs in this country that are not desired by at least some T-14 grads. Lots of kids would be happy to go home and make good money.[/quote]

I understand but all I was trying to say was that Cornell sends about 100 grads to NYC every year. Therefore, they flood the market. Vandy sends about 35 grads tp NYC, a few to atlanta, a few to texas, a few to nashville...etc. Theyre more spread out which helps you get jobs when youre not competing with 50 other kids from your school. Firms like diversity.[/quote]

Firms only like school variety if they already have a bunch of people from other top schools tho. If vandy kids really aren't competing against T-14 grads, I don't see why variety would come in2 play.




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