Upper Mountain West

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thedive
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Upper Mountain West

Postby thedive » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:32 pm

I was just wondering what (if any) feelings anyone had towards U of Wyoming and U of Montana. Are they worth attending at resident rates?

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dr123
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby dr123 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:33 pm

They're both good schools, UM is like 30k for all three years in state.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:37 pm

thedive wrote:Are they worth attending at resident rates?


Depends on what you want out of your law school education.

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Veyron
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:39 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
thedive wrote:Are they worth attending at resident rates?


Depends on what you want out of your law school education. if you want to practice in-state

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:42 pm

Veyron wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:
thedive wrote:Are they worth attending at resident rates?


Depends on what you want out of your law school education. if you want to practice in-state


I was simply trying to get more information. If OP said "I want NYC BigLaw," then obviously he is misguided. But if he said "I want to advocate for rural America," then it would be worth attending.

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Veyron
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:44 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
Veyron wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:
thedive wrote:Are they worth attending at resident rates?


Depends on what you want out of your law school education. if you want to practice in-state


I was simply trying to get more information. If OP said "I want NYC BigLaw," then obviously he is misguided. But if he said "I want to advocate for rural America," then it would be worth attending.


Not financially. The only way worth attending is if wants to practice in state, in a neighboring state with no law school, or gets a full ride (maybe).

thedive
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby thedive » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:48 pm

Well to be honest practicing in state would be fine with me, in fact it is something I would prefer. I'm just trying to decide on UM compared to a couple lower T2 schools that I had schollys at to make them about the same price or slightly lower (7k tuition a year). The problem is that these other schools are in areas with T1 schools so I feel that finding a job in this market may be difficult upon graduation as the will be secondary compared to other local schools.

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dr123
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby dr123 » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:50 pm

If you are deadset on practicing in Montana going to anyother school than UM is seriously a bad choice. They have a very loyal alum base and almost every practicing attorney in MT is a montana alum. Also I don't get what T1 schools you're talking about there is no T1 in Idaho/Wyoming/Montana and most CU/DU alums stay in Colorado and most UW/SeattleU alums stay in Wash
Last edited by dr123 on Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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lisjjen
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby lisjjen » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:51 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
thedive wrote:Are they worth attending at resident rates?


Depends on what you want out of your law school education.


And your connections to the area. I can't speak to those two schools, but I know there's an open invitation by the national firms with offices in Boise to the Top 3 grads from every University of Idaho class. That may sound appealing, but only if you're in the top 3.

Now, if you went to a more prestigious regional UG school like Caroll College or Alberston's, there will be other opportunities with midlevel firms. It just depends on what you want to do and your likelihood to perform.
Last edited by lisjjen on Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Veyron
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:52 pm

thedive wrote:Well to be honest practicing in state would be fine with me, in fact it is something I would prefer. I'm just trying to decide on UM compared to a couple lower T2 schools that I had schollys at to make them about the same price or slightly lower (7k tuition a year). The problem is that these other schools are in areas with T1 schools so I feel that finding a job in this market may be difficult upon graduation as the will be secondary compared to other local schools.


You will have a much better shot at a job in the state with no other law school. T2 means exactly shit ITE, or really, ever. UM is definitely worth 7 grand a year. . . the T2s that you are describing aren't worth a penny.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:54 pm

Veyron wrote:
thedive wrote:Well to be honest practicing in state would be fine with me, in fact it is something I would prefer. I'm just trying to decide on UM compared to a couple lower T2 schools that I had schollys at to make them about the same price or slightly lower (7k tuition a year). The problem is that these other schools are in areas with T1 schools so I feel that finding a job in this market may be difficult upon graduation as the will be secondary compared to other local schools.


You will have a much better shot at a job in the state with no other law school. T2 means exactly shit ITE, or really, ever. UM is definitely worth 7 grand a year. . . the T2s that you are describing aren't worth a penny.


This is the problem with ranking schools that don't really need to be ranked (outside the T30, maybe T50). People become rank whores and that clouds a rather clear decision, at least in a case like OP's.

thedive
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby thedive » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:58 pm

Sorry I posted that as a quote accidentaly above.

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lisjjen
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby lisjjen » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:58 pm

OP, are you from the area?

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Veyron
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:00 pm

MrPapagiorgio wrote:
Veyron wrote:
thedive wrote:Well to be honest practicing in state would be fine with me, in fact it is something I would prefer. I'm just trying to decide on UM compared to a couple lower T2 schools that I had schollys at to make them about the same price or slightly lower (7k tuition a year). The problem is that these other schools are in areas with T1 schools so I feel that finding a job in this market may be difficult upon graduation as the will be secondary compared to other local schools.


You will have a much better shot at a job in the state with no other law school. T2 means exactly shit ITE, or really, ever. UM is definitely worth 7 grand a year. . . the T2s that you are describing aren't worth a penny.


This is the problem with ranking schools that don't really need to be ranked (outside the T30, maybe T50 T-14). People become rank whores and that clouds a rather clear decision, at least in a case like OP's.


FTFY. Ranking is only regional past the tippy top schools. In that case, relative rank in the region matters sometimes and sometimes not (e.g. the rankings difference between ASU and U of A matters not at all). Also, "regions" come in all shapes in sizes.

thedive
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby thedive » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:01 pm

Yeah, I'm from MT. My primary question I guess is does UM warrant much more consideration that a low ranked T2 school that offers a considerable scholly?

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lisjjen
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby lisjjen » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:04 pm

thedive wrote:Yeah, I'm from MT. My primary question I guess is does UM warrant much more consideration that a low ranked T2 school that offers a considerable scholly?


Well then I'll answer honestly. I stopped doping my stats. I'm from Idaho, and if I was facing either lower T2's or University of Idaho and wanted to stay in Boise, I'd take UI every day of the week and twice on Tuesdays. Especially with such a low debt load.

You aren't going to just have networking from your LS, but from your UG too, and then from all the people you've known growing up. Are you going to be making six figures? Maybe, prolly not, but you'll be make a living, and ITE, that's the entire point now isn't it?
Last edited by lisjjen on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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MrPapagiorgio
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby MrPapagiorgio » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:05 pm

thedive wrote:Yeah, I'm from MT. My primary question I guess is does UM warrant much more consideration that a low ranked T2 school that offers a considerable scholly?


Yes.

Veyron wrote:
MrPapagiorgio wrote:
Veyron wrote:
thedive wrote:Well to be honest practicing in state would be fine with me, in fact it is something I would prefer. I'm just trying to decide on UM compared to a couple lower T2 schools that I had schollys at to make them about the same price or slightly lower (7k tuition a year). The problem is that these other schools are in areas with T1 schools so I feel that finding a job in this market may be difficult upon graduation as the will be secondary compared to other local schools.


You will have a much better shot at a job in the state with no other law school. T2 means exactly shit ITE, or really, ever. UM is definitely worth 7 grand a year. . . the T2s that you are describing aren't worth a penny.


This is the problem with ranking schools that don't really need to be ranked (outside the T30, maybe T50 T-14). People become rank whores and that clouds a rather clear decision, at least in a case like OP's.


FTFY. Ranking is only regional past the tippy top schools. In that case, relative rank in the region matters sometimes and sometimes not (e.g. the rankings difference between ASU and U of A matters not at all). Also, "regions" come in all shapes in sizes.


I didn't want to be accused of being an elitist by saying that only the T14 deserved to be ranked. :D
Last edited by MrPapagiorgio on Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Veyron
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:05 pm

lisjjen wrote:
thedive wrote:Yeah, I'm from MT. My primary question I guess is does UM warrant much more consideration that a low ranked T2 school that offers a considerable scholly?


Well then I'll answer honestly. I stopped doping my stats. I'm from Idaho, and if I was facing either lower T2's or University of Idaho and wanted to stay in Boise, I'd take UI every day of the week and twice on Tuesdays. Especially with such a low debt load.

You aren't going to just have networking from your LS, but from your UG too, and then from all the people you've known growing up. Are you going to be making six figures? Maybe, prolly not, but you'll be make a living, and ITE, that's the entire point now isn't it?


Very credited. And montana has a very low COL.

BeautifulSW
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby BeautifulSW » Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:47 pm

When I was at UNM Law, we did a little snooping and decided that the only ABA approved school offering a cheaper J.D. than UNM was Montana. It's not that cheap anymore but it's still pretty reasonable. (I don't recall if we considered BYU at the Saint rate.)

Hmmmm......Missoula is one of those places I dream of living in until I start thinking about the winters. UM Law is also really small. It used to run something like 75 students in each class. Know what? If the OP is a Montana resident and cannot imagine ever leaving the state for any reason whatsoever, I'd say "go for it". There are jobs in Montana; they just pay really poorly.

Ditto Idaho, I guess. The only private school supplying this area would be Gonzaga in Spokane, also a really nice town but Zag-Law is awfully expensive.

Thanks to the forum for the Northern Rockies daydream...

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lisjjen
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby lisjjen » Wed Feb 09, 2011 3:04 pm

BeautifulSW wrote:When I was at UNM Law, we did a little snooping and decided that the only ABA approved school offering a cheaper J.D. than UNM was Montana. It's not that cheap anymore but it's still pretty reasonable. (I don't recall if we considered BYU at the Saint rate.)

Hmmmm......Missoula is one of those places I dream of living in until I start thinking about the winters. UM Law is also really small. It used to run something like 75 students in each class. Know what? If the OP is a Montana resident and cannot imagine ever leaving the state for any reason whatsoever, I'd say "go for it". There are jobs in Montana; they just pay really poorly.

Ditto Idaho, I guess. The only private school supplying this area would be Gonzaga in Spokane, also a really nice town but Zag-Law is awfully expensive.

Thanks to the forum for the Northern Rockies daydream...


If you like skiing, hiking, rafting, etc. the area can be great. The problem is that if you like metropolises at all, don't go anywhere near the upper Mountain West. You can trick yourself for about half an hour in downtown Boise or Missoula, but it isn't long until you realize how small even the "big" cities really are.

Also, Sun Valley is great, if expensive. You hear about celebrity sitings up there all the time.

Image

BeautifulSW
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby BeautifulSW » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:08 pm

It's a question of lifestyle, alright. I cannot imagine ever wanting to live in a big city. Traffic, noise, crowds, crime, pollution, high cost of everything...not for me, thanks. I've lived most of my life in cities between 30,000 and 100,000 and that's exactly the right size as far as I am concerned. When I want to see a decent Broadway road show or do serious, non-on-line shopping, I travel to El Paso, around 500,000.

That's the biggest problem with Montana, really. The state lacks, not only any sizeable cities of its own, but sizeable cities even in bordering states. Law firms need commerce to thrive and there isn't much in Montana.

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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby SupraVln180 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:58 pm

BeautifulSW wrote:It's a question of lifestyle, alright. I cannot imagine ever wanting to live in a big city. Traffic, noise, crowds, crime, pollution, high cost of everything...not for me, thanks. I've lived most of my life in cities between 30,000 and 100,000 and that's exactly the right size as far as I am concerned. When I want to see a decent Broadway road show or do serious, non-on-line shopping, I travel to El Paso, around 500,000.

That's the biggest problem with Montana, really. The state lacks, not only any sizeable cities of its own, but sizeable cities even in bordering states. Law firms need commerce to thrive and there isn't much in Montana.


Yes, but there are still law firms and Montana is not an expensive place to live. Doing well at one of these schools and making 70-80K is well worth the investment, especially if you want to live quiet, but comfortably in the "Mountain West".

BeautifulSW
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby BeautifulSW » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:13 am

Absolutely agree, especially since that's pretty much where I am myself except in the Southern Rockies instead of the Northern Rockies.

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Veyron
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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby Veyron » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:14 am

SupraVln180 wrote:
BeautifulSW wrote:It's a question of lifestyle, alright. I cannot imagine ever wanting to live in a big city. Traffic, noise, crowds, crime, pollution, high cost of everything...not for me, thanks. I've lived most of my life in cities between 30,000 and 100,000 and that's exactly the right size as far as I am concerned. When I want to see a decent Broadway road show or do serious, non-on-line shopping, I travel to El Paso, around 500,000.

That's the biggest problem with Montana, really. The state lacks, not only any sizeable cities of its own, but sizeable cities even in bordering states. Law firms need commerce to thrive and there isn't much in Montana.


Yes, but there are still law firms and Montana is not an expensive place to live. Doing well at one of these schools and making 70-80K is well worth the investment, especially if you want to live quiet, but comfortably in the "Mountain West".


I mean, don't fool yourself that you can make that right out, but at 40, probably. Still even 50, even - 10k a year for loan payments is just as good as making 120k in NYC if you like montana better.

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Re: Upper Mountain West

Postby BeautifulSW » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:05 pm

Oh, I think you might be surprised about the income potential for a solo in an underserved area. Montana, like N.Mex., is not hugely overlawyered and its population has been growing gradually over the last few decades. About a million, now, I believe. A small, well managed generalist commercial practice located in, say, Billings or Great Falls, which are not tourist traps in the Rockies but commercial centers toward the eastern part of the state, might could do pretty well. Now, if you absolutely INSIST on doing an estate planning botique practice in Kalispell, then I wish you luck.

As to Idaho...I love the state but I have long suspected that creating a successful commercial firm there would be easier if there's a solid connection to the LDS Church. I'd love to be shown to be wrong about this but I think it's true. Anyway, I'd look at Lewiston if Idaho were my target state.




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