Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

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Informative
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Informative » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:47 pm

Except that all quantitative evidence suggests GW is better for biglaw placement. lol.

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bk1
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby bk1 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:48 pm

Informative wrote:Except that all quantitative evidence suggests GW is better for biglaw placement. lol.


Not by a significant margin.

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Hannibal
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Hannibal » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:36 pm

Informative wrote:Except that all quantitative evidence suggests GW is better for biglaw placement. lol.


Remember, hiring by NLJ250 is exactly correspondent to the quality of a school.

The more you know.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Blindmelon » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:01 pm

Hannibal wrote:
Informative wrote:Except that all quantitative evidence suggests GW is better for biglaw placement. lol.


Remember, hiring by NLJ250 is exactly correspondent to the quality of a school.

The more you know.


And USNews doesn't exactly correspond to the quality of a school.

The more you know.

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Hannibal
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Hannibal » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:35 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
Hannibal wrote:
Informative wrote:Except that all quantitative evidence suggests GW is better for biglaw placement. lol.


Remember, hiring by NLJ250 is exactly correspondent to the quality of a school.

The more you know.


And USNews doesn't exactly correspond to the quality of a school.

The more you know.


My point was that Informative was saying WUSTL was overranked because NLJ250 hiring was lower than other schools. My counter was that the purpose of USNWR's rankings is school quality, not job placement alone.

RC

Informative
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Informative » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:57 am

US News doesn't take into account biglaw placement specifically, even though most people go to law school primarily to work at a law firm, especially the prestigious ones. The only thing US News takes into account is employment at graduation and 6 months after graduation, which can include non-legal work one could have obtained without a law degree (or even a college degree in some cases). This is how schools that place horribly can still report high employment stats even though their students aren't getting good jobs. Sad, but true.

If you want biglaw, you need to look at the statistics focusing on biglaw placement.
WUSTL will provide a great education. It just won't get you in the door at a V25 firm.

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Hannibal
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Hannibal » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:28 am

Informative wrote:US News doesn't take into account biglaw placement specifically, even though most people go to law school primarily to work at a law firm, especially the prestigious ones. The only thing US News takes into account is employment at graduation and 6 months after graduation, which can include non-legal work one could have obtained without a law degree (or even a college degree in some cases). This is how schools that place horribly can still report high employment stats even though their students aren't getting good jobs. Sad, but true.

If you want biglaw, you need to look at the statistics focusing on biglaw placement.
WUSTL will provide a great education. It just won't get you in the door at a V25 firm.


I definitely do not think a majority of law students aim at getting into big, prestigious law firms. TLS is definitely not representative in that regard. Even if it were, still has nothing to do with the arguments being made.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Blindmelon » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:54 pm

Hannibal wrote:
I definitely do not think a majority of law students aim at getting into big, prestigious law firms. TLS is definitely not representative in that regard. Even if it were, still has nothing to do with the arguments being made.


I think the opposite actually. A lot of TLS doesn't want to go into a big firm, but when you get to law school you realize there are very few options that will allow you to pay off your debt.

Doing PI/gov work is a lot of times more competitive than bigfirms, especially if you want to get into a more prestigious gov. position (DOJ, FTC, etc.). I came to law school wanting to do government work, and I got a few offers, but was shut out of DOJ, DOS, FTC, etc.

I'm glad as hell I'm at a school where top 1/3rd has a shot (although not a great one) of landing a big firm job... I don't know if I'll want to stay at the big firm forever, but it'll help me get into one of those gov. agencies when the time is right - and its nice that the salary is ungodly high.

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Blindmelon
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Blindmelon » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:55 pm

Also, everyone says they don't want big firm jobs, etc, but just wait until OCI comes around. Everyone who said they wouldn't be caught dead at a big firm are in suits practicing their lines.

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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby AreJay711 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 12:59 pm

Hannibal wrote:My point was that Informative was saying WUSTL was overranked because NLJ250 hiring was lower than other schools. My counter was that the purpose of USNWR's rankings is school quality, not job placement alone.

RC


I think WUSTL's issue is much more location. I'd choose GW personally because it is in the area where I grew up but if i didn't care about location I think I would prefer WUSTL. There is something to be said for being the absolute best in the immediate surroundings and that is something GW can't say with UVA and GULC (and the rest of the t14 wanting to go to dc)

Edit: IDK what happened on the original other than a possible highlight then overtype. Romo's response still works though.
Last edited by AreJay711 on Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Patriot1208
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Patriot1208 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 1:02 pm

AreJay711 wrote:
Hannibal wrote:My point was that Informative was saying WUSTL was overranked because NLJ250 hiring was lower than other schools. My counter was that the purpose of USNWR's rankings is school quality, not job placement alone.

RC


I think WUSTL's issue is much more location because it is in the area where I grew up but if i didn't care about location I think I would prefer WUSTL. There is something to be said for being the absolute best in the immediate surroundings and that is something GW can't say with UVA and GULC (and the rest of the t14 wanting to go to dc)

The problem I think you find with WUSTL is that most of the people are not natives. And, employers are turned off by all the New England kids coming to WUSTL knowing that 9 times out of 10 they will jump ship to a north east firm the first chance they get. If not for that type of mindset I think WUSTL would have quite a lot of midlaw type firms hiring, but they just don't trust WUSTL kids. So, a lot of those firms go after the top grads at the t2's and t3's instead.

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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Informative » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:21 pm

Blindmelon wrote:Also, everyone says they don't want big firm jobs, etc, but just wait until OCI comes around. Everyone who said they wouldn't be caught dead at a big firm are in suits practicing their lines.


This. So true. Everyone will be trying for the four or five spots that get filled by WUSTL students each year at Vault firms.
Last edited by Informative on Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ClaytonR
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby ClaytonR » Fri Feb 11, 2011 6:58 pm

Informative wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:Also, everyone says they don't want big firm jobs, etc, but just wait until OCI comes around. Everyone who said they wouldn't be caught dead at a big firm are in suits practicing their lines.


This. So true. Everyone will be trying for the four or five spots that get filled by WUSTL students each year at big law firms.


the 80 students who got BIGLAW last year =/= 4.

...Unless you're saying each top firm hires 4 WUSTL students a year.

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Hannibal
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Hannibal » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:06 pm

Informative wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:Also, everyone says they don't want big firm jobs, etc, but just wait until OCI comes around. Everyone who said they wouldn't be caught dead at a big firm are in suits practicing their lines.


This. So true. Everyone will be trying for the four or five spots that get filled by WUSTL students each year at big law firms.


Not everyone goes into law school expecting biglaw =/= not everyone wants biglaw =/= many won't even interview for biglaw. Nice train of broken logic.

The argument that people will be disappointed by biglaw placement only really applies for the kind of people who are smart enough to research the USWNR and its general effect on biglaw hiring, but not enough to research individual schools. This person must also go into the school hoping for biglaw, and even then it would underperform by only a few percentage points. So this person must also be overoptimistic.

Not sure this person is common or even exists, and even then the argument rests on the idea that all schools' top students desire in equal proportions to practice in biglaw.

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bk1
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:20 pm

ClaytonR wrote:
Informative wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:Also, everyone says they don't want big firm jobs, etc, but just wait until OCI comes around. Everyone who said they wouldn't be caught dead at a big firm are in suits practicing their lines.


This. So true. Everyone will be trying for the four or five spots that get filled by WUSTL students each year at big law firms.


the 80 students who got BIGLAW last year =/= 4.

...Unless you're saying each top firm hires 4 WUSTL students a year.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

ClaytonR
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby ClaytonR » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:30 pm

bk1 wrote:
ClaytonR wrote:
Informative wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:Also, everyone says they don't want big firm jobs, etc, but just wait until OCI comes around. Everyone who said they wouldn't be caught dead at a big firm are in suits practicing their lines.


This. So true. Everyone will be trying for the four or five spots that get filled by WUSTL students each year at big law firms.


the 80 students who got BIGLAW last year =/= 4.

...Unless you're saying each top firm hires 4 WUSTL students a year.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole


I figured as much but who knows. Maybe he actually believed it (that wouldn't have surprised me).

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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby TatteredDignity » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:33 pm

Informative wrote:WUSTL will provide a great education. It just won't get you in the door at a V25 firm.


Is this true, or just more hyperbole? I figured that, at the very least, the tippy-top of WUSTL has a shot at V10.

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bk1
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:36 pm

0LNewbie wrote:
Informative wrote:WUSTL will provide a great education. It just won't get you in the door at a V25 firm.


Is this true, or just more hyperbole? I figured that, at the very least, the tippy-top of WUSTL has a shot at V10.


It's not really hyperbolic, more illustrative of a general point that WUSTL's biglaw chances are low.

One should be making school choices based on what is probable after graduation, not what is possible.

nosaj123
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby nosaj123 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:43 pm

0LNewbie wrote:
Informative wrote:WUSTL will provide a great education. It just won't get you in the door at a V25 firm.


Is this true, or just more hyperbole? I figured that, at the very least, the tippy-top of WUSTL has a shot at V10.


% of class getting an SA at a V25 firm in 2006:
http://lawfirmaddict.blogspot.com/2006/ ... ement.html

This is not the highest quality data, and it is getting a bit dated, but I believe it is the best information available for anybody who wants to get an idea of how well a school places into selective firms. Wash U is 27th on that list, but I've heard that its aggressive CSO has helped improve it's placement compared to other schools in recent years.

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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby TatteredDignity » Fri Feb 11, 2011 7:58 pm

bk1 wrote:One should be making school choices based on what is probable after graduation, not what is possible.


That's true, in general, but I think some instances call for knowing what the best case scenarios are. Assuming similar biglaw placement between two schools (and by similar, I mean top 25% gets it rather than top 35%), I'd want to go the school that doesn't shut doors before I even start (prestigious clerkships/firms).

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bk1
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 11, 2011 8:02 pm

0LNewbie wrote:
bk1 wrote:One should be making school choices based on what is probable after graduation, not what is possible.


That's true, in general, but I think some instances call for knowing what the best case scenarios are. Assuming similar biglaw placement between two schools (and by similar, I mean top 25% gets it rather than top 35%), I'd want to go the school that doesn't shut doors before I even start (prestigious clerkships/firms).


That is fair assuming cost, placement, location are all equal. However, they rarely are.

ClaytonR
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby ClaytonR » Fri Feb 11, 2011 11:01 pm

bk1 wrote:
0LNewbie wrote:
bk1 wrote:One should be making school choices based on what is probable after graduation, not what is possible.


That's true, in general, but I think some instances call for knowing what the best case scenarios are. Assuming similar biglaw placement between two schools (and by similar, I mean top 25% gets it rather than top 35%), I'd want to go the school that doesn't shut doors before I even start (prestigious clerkships/firms).


That is fair assuming cost, placement, location are all equal. However, they rarely are.


WUSTL wins the "cost" war, that's for sure. Not so certain about the others (the last depends on personal preference though that isn't to say they're not both in huge metropolitan areas).

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romothesavior
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby romothesavior » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:19 pm

Neither one is significantly better than the other. GW has slightly better biglaw numbers, but it will be interesting to see what happens with the newest clerkship/biglaw numbers. I have it from a pretty reputable source that WUSTL is expected to move up in clerkship+NLJ 250 numbers relative to a few of our peers. Whether that will happen, I really have no idea, but it is the word on the WUSTL street.

That said, I wouldn't go to WUSTL over GW if you want to be in D.C., and I wouldn't got to GW over WUSTL if you want to be in Chicago or St. Louis. Both schools have the ability to be national if you can dominate the curve, but for the average student, both are simply strong regional schools.

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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby idfatq » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:26 pm

romothesavior wrote:That said, I wouldn't go to WUSTL over GW if you want to be in D.C., and I wouldn't got to GW over WUSTL if you want to be in Chicago or St. Louis. Both schools have the ability to be national if you can dominate the curve, but for the average student, both are simply strong regional schools.


How is chicago considered "regional" for WUSTL when it's 300 miles away? Using the same logic Philly and NYC are also "regional" for GW; both cities are closer to GW than chicago is to WUSTL.

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fatduck
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby fatduck » Sat Feb 12, 2011 10:31 pm

idfatq wrote:
romothesavior wrote:That said, I wouldn't go to WUSTL over GW if you want to be in D.C., and I wouldn't got to GW over WUSTL if you want to be in Chicago or St. Louis. Both schools have the ability to be national if you can dominate the curve, but for the average student, both are simply strong regional schools.


How is chicago considered "regional" for WUSTL when it's 300 miles away? Using the same logic Philly and NYC are also "regional" for GW; both cities are closer to GW than chicago is to WUSTL.


because chicago is in the midwest

notsureifsrs




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