Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

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Informative
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Informative » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:10 am

Here is the referenced thread:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=108528

WUSTL does suprisingly bad.
If you can't get into a T14, the best options are

Vanderbilt - 55.0%
Texas - 47.5%
USC - 47.2%
UCLA - 41.9%
Boston College - 38.0%
Notre Dame - 37.8%

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androstan
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby androstan » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:26 am

Informative wrote:Here is the referenced thread:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=108528

WUSTL does suprisingly bad.


No, Satan does bad. WUSTL does poorly.

ClaytonR
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby ClaytonR » Wed Feb 09, 2011 11:29 am

Informative wrote:Here is the referenced thread:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=108528

WUSTL does suprisingly bad.
If you can't get into a T14, the best options are

Vanderbilt - 55.0%
Texas - 47.5%
USC - 47.2%
UCLA - 41.9%
Boston College - 38.0%
Notre Dame - 37.8%


But if you can't get into one of those...? (And IIRC WUSTL is just 4 spots below ND).

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bk1
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 1:46 pm

Informative wrote:Here is the referenced thread:
http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=108528

WUSTL does suprisingly bad.
If you can't get into a T14, the best options are

Vanderbilt - 55.0%
Texas - 47.5%
USC - 47.2%
UCLA - 41.9%
Boston College - 38.0%
Notre Dame - 37.8%



Are you fucking dumb?

WUSTL's 32.5% apparently makes it "surprisingly bad" compared to Notre Dame's 37.8%.

Informative
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Informative » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:51 pm

WUSTL does suprisingly worse than GW, which is what this thread is about.
WUSTL also does worse than BC, BU and Fordham, although this is to be expected given their connections and track record with biglaw.

ClaytonR
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby ClaytonR » Wed Feb 09, 2011 6:53 pm

Informative wrote:WUSTL does suprisingly worse than GW, which is what this thread is about.
WUSTL also does worse than BC, BU and Fordham, although this is to be expected given their connections and track record with biglaw.


Why is it surprising?

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Blindmelon
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Blindmelon » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:09 pm

Informative wrote:WUSTL does suprisingly worse than GW, which is what this thread is about.
WUSTL also does worse than BC, BU and Fordham, although this is to be expected given their connections and track record with biglaw.


+1. I don't get this WUSTL at 19 thing. It objectively places worse than a lot of schools like GW, BC, BU, Fordham. I would take any of those schools over WUSTL in a second unless I was targeting the midwest, excluding Chicago, because then I would take UIUC or ND.

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bk1
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:15 pm

Informative wrote:WUSTL does suprisingly worse than GW, which is what this thread is about.
WUSTL also does worse than BC, BU and Fordham, although this is to be expected given their connections and track record with biglaw.


32.5% versus 35.5% is not so large in my mind.

Blindmelon wrote:+1. I don't get this WUSTL at 19 thing. It objectively places worse than a lot of schools like GW, BC, BU, Fordham. I would take any of those schools over WUSTL in a second unless I was targeting the midwest, excluding Chicago, because then I would take UIUC or ND.


You really agree with him that WUSTL does significantly worse? I'd say it does worse but not so much so that it is significant in my mind.

At equal cost for Chicago you'd take Illinois over WUSTL? I honestly think the placement differences are so small at that point that one should really choose based on personal preference for the school itself.

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Hannibal
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Hannibal » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:42 pm

bk1 wrote:
Informative wrote:WUSTL does suprisingly worse than GW, which is what this thread is about.
WUSTL also does worse than BC, BU and Fordham, although this is to be expected given their connections and track record with biglaw.


32.5% versus 35.5% is not so large in my mind.

Blindmelon wrote:+1. I don't get this WUSTL at 19 thing. It objectively places worse than a lot of schools like GW, BC, BU, Fordham. I would take any of those schools over WUSTL in a second unless I was targeting the midwest, excluding Chicago, because then I would take UIUC or ND.


You really agree with him that WUSTL does significantly worse? I'd say it does worse but not so much so that it is significant in my mind.

At equal cost for Chicago you'd take Illinois over WUSTL? I honestly think the placement differences are so small at that point that one should really choose based on personal preference for the school itself.


I agree with all this, but I also have a problem with the NLJ+clerkship thread. Those stats are really too specific to a certain target: general biglaw, clerkship. However if you wouldn't mind taking midlaw, a school that has a very good career services could probably do much better in reducing unemployment or getting someone from a small firm to a mid-firm, which isn't reflected in those rankings.

Also, this is assuming the current economy, which is a mistake. Chicago has more jobs to recover than other places, and may result in an increase in midwest schools. And placement among peer schools is so much up to the individual it's barely even a factor.

Also, schools in regions with less biglaw may place themselves out of the NLJ250 in order to stay in their region.

Also, it doesn't include PI numbers which may affect the numbers.

My point is, you shouldn't go by raw placement statistics any more than you should go by the USNWR ranking.

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bk1
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:56 pm

Hannibal wrote:I agree with all this, but I also have a problem with the NLJ+clerkship thread. Those stats are really too specific to a certain target: general biglaw, clerkship. However if you wouldn't mind taking midlaw, a school that has a very good career services could probably do much better in reducing unemployment or getting someone from a small firm to a mid-firm, which isn't reflected in those rankings.

Also, this is assuming the current economy, which is a mistake. Chicago has more jobs to recover than other places, and may result in an increase in midwest schools. And placement among peer schools is so much up to the individual it's barely even a factor.

Also, schools in regions with less biglaw may place themselves out of the NLJ250 in order to stay in their region.

Also, it doesn't include PI numbers which may affect the numbers.

My point is, you shouldn't go by raw placement statistics any more than you should go by the USNWR ranking.


I feel like midlaw is very rare and that smalllaw isn't going to pay back 100k+ worth of debt in a timeframe that I am comfortable with. Also, the amount of PI at these schools is fairly small.

You are right about the Chicago thing and which is why I would definitely take BU/BC/Fordham over WUSTL/Illinois/ND assuming things are equal. GW I'm not so sure though because it is in DC. I mean I'd probably take GW over 'em but with GW I'd hesitate more than the other 3.

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Hannibal
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Hannibal » Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:05 pm

Even at schools as far down as Hastings and the like, private practice median salaries are above 100k pretty consistently. Even given the reporting problem (which is only a few percentage points), that would suggest most people who go into private practice end up getting at least midlaw. And the surveys aren't a controllable thing like admissions where they can game it so there's like one dude at median and everyone below that is making 60k.

BTW the midwest thing was intended to say DC and the midwest might be reported as comparatively less strong in those rankings, but will be stronger once we're in the position to take jobs.

ETA: Also, there are many regional firms outside NLJ250 that pay near-biglaw salaries.

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bk1
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby bk1 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:25 am

Hannibal wrote:Even at schools as far down as Hastings and the like, private practice median salaries are above 100k pretty consistently. Even given the reporting problem (which is only a few percentage points), that would suggest most people who go into private practice end up getting at least midlaw. And the surveys aren't a controllable thing like admissions where they can game it so there's like one dude at median and everyone below that is making 60k.

BTW the midwest thing was intended to say DC and the midwest might be reported as comparatively less strong in those rankings, but will be stronger once we're in the position to take jobs.

ETA: Also, there are many regional firms outside NLJ250 that pay near-biglaw salaries.

I'm confused about your point regarding Hastings and median private salaries. Hastings only has 28% making 160k or in clerkships. There's also the 12% making 85-160k as well.

For boom times this sounds about right. With SF getting raped by ITE... ugh.

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Hannibal
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Hannibal » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:33 am

What I mean is the belief around here is that you either get NLJ250 (160k or so), a federal clerkship, or shitlaw (which for some appears to be akin to unemployment) with a select few getting midlaw. The numbers don't really support that, at least for schools in the upper T1.

Unless my definition of midlaw is different than others here.

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dood
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby dood » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:49 am

Hannibal wrote:What I mean is the belief around here is that you either get NLJ250 (160k or so), a federal clerkship, or shitlaw (which for some appears to be akin to unemployment) with a select few getting midlaw. The numbers don't really support that, at least for schools in the upper T1.

Unless my definition of midlaw is different than others here.


everything u wrote is opposite from the truth, i wonder if u did it on purpose.

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Hannibal
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Hannibal » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:55 am

dood wrote:
Hannibal wrote:What I mean is the belief around here is that you either get NLJ250 (160k or so), a federal clerkship, or shitlaw (which for some appears to be akin to unemployment) with a select few getting midlaw. The numbers don't really support that, at least for schools in the upper T1.

Unless my definition of midlaw is different than others here.


everything u wrote is opposite from the truth, i wonder if u did it on purpose.


So you're saying that people don't believe what I said they do, but they should because it is true?

To give an example of what I was saying, I pulled a random T30 profile from the TLS thing, and W&M's 25th percentile for private practice was 95k. ND's median salary is 126k, GW's average across employment types is 136k.

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dood
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby dood » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:41 am

Hannibal wrote:To give an example of what I was saying, I pulled a random T30 profile from the TLS thing, and W&M's 25th percentile for private practice was 95k. ND's median salary is 126k, GW's average across employment types is 136k.


EDIT: oh i get it lol. ok u got me for a sec.

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androstan
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby androstan » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:01 am

in resp to the "rarity of midlaw":

155-165: 11.18%
90-150: 16.76%
65-90: 13.41%
35-65: 58.67%

Informative
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Informative » Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:32 am

Midlaw is not rare, especially at a school like WUSTL that doesn't place very well in biglaw but does pretty well in Midlaw. I also don't think it is considered shitlaw, but it is not what one expects to be doing when they attend a T30 school like WUSTL.

It is websites like this one that expose the overranking of WUSTL that make it less detrimental for law students. If they read threads like these and go to WUSTL over BC/BU/Fordham/GW and fail to get into a summer associate class at a vault firm, they will have been warned.

BTW, I go by the definition of midlaw as a non-nlj250 firm that doesnt pay 160k, which accounts for a lot of firms in the midwest.

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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby ClaytonR » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:10 pm

Informative wrote:Midlaw is not rare, especially at a school like WUSTL that doesn't place very well in biglaw but does pretty well in Midlaw. I also don't think it is considered shitlaw, but it is not what one expects to be doing when they attend a T30 school like WUSTL.

It is websites like this one that expose the overranking of WUSTL that make it less detrimental for law students. If they read threads like these and go to WUSTL over BC/BU/Fordham/GW and fail to get into a summer associate class at a vault firm, they will have been warned.

BTW, I go by the definition of midlaw as a non-nlj250 firm that doesnt pay 160k, which accounts for a lot of firms in the midwest.


Are you saying a median-pwned student at GWU has a better chance, theoretically and all else being equal (no connections, same personality traits and undergrad/previous work background), than a median-pwned student at WUSTL?

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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Hannibal » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:52 pm

Informative, are you saying that because you believe Vault placement to be the best measure of a school?

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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby Informative » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:07 pm

I think NLJ250 placement is what most people want at graduation. If this is what you want, then the stats are important. Of course, there are exceptions to this rule. I think BC/BU/GW/Fordham's placement in vault firms is just another example that these are better schools, but I concede that this is due to geographic location. Regardless, getting a job at Sullivan and Cromwell or a peer firm is more impressive than getting a job at an NLJ250 in St.Louis.

Yes, a student in the middle of the class at GW is going to have more options than WUSTL, largely because of the DC market.

ClaytonR
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby ClaytonR » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:48 pm

Informative wrote:I think NLJ250 placement is what most people want at graduation. If this is what you want, then the stats are important. Of course, there are exceptions to this rule. I think BC/BU/GW/Fordham's placement in vault firms is just another example that these are better schools, but I concede that this is due to geographic location. Regardless, getting a job at Sullivan and Cromwell or a peer firm is more impressive than getting a job at an NLJ250 in St.Louis.

Yes, a student in the middle of the class at GW is going to have more options than WUSTL, largely because of the DC market.


Ok, I concede more options. But will they necessarily be better?

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NU_Jet55
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby NU_Jet55 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:53 pm

ClaytonR wrote:Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?


YUS.

/thread

ClaytonR
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby ClaytonR » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:22 pm

NU_Jet55 wrote:
ClaytonR wrote:Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?


YUS.

/thread

Not sure what you just said NU Jet.

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NU_Jet55
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Re: Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?

Postby NU_Jet55 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 4:51 pm

ClaytonR wrote:
NU_Jet55 wrote:
ClaytonR wrote:Is WUSTL significantly better than GWU?


YUS.

/thread

Not sure what you just said NU Jet.


Yes, WUSTL is significantly better than GWU. Since the question has been answered, further posts on the thread are unnecessary.




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