Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

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damage-inc
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Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby damage-inc » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:23 am

1st post on TLS, good to be a part of this forum.

Before I even ask my question(s), I understand the hatred for layman's prestige threads as I searched the forum beforehand. I understand that its not something to base one's decision off and the list will never be set in stone. But thats not what I'm here for,

I need help from fellow TLS'ers about whether there is significant prestige difference between Penn/Duke/Cornell and if that could possibly effect job prospects. In speaking to many lawyers in my hometown city, and asking questions to law firm recruiters, I got a sense that they dont follow the USNEWS rankings once they are settled into employment. They all told me that once employed, its not about the law school you went to but the business you bring in, and I am in no position to argue.

But I want to know if a some advantage in prestige, as unwarranted as it may be, between these 3 schools can effect the amount of callbacks from law firms and/or the ability of a degree-holder to enter a field outside of law.

Thank you for the help!

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Ikki
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby Ikki » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:35 am

Sorry for not contributing to your thread at all but I have to say, Master of Puppets FTW!

damage-inc
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby damage-inc » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:38 am

Ikki wrote:Master of Puppets FTW!

HELL YEAH.

glacierfrost
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby glacierfrost » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:39 am

Fade to black FTW

damage-inc
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby damage-inc » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:42 am

I'm loving the metallica references. But....going back to the issue at hand would be greatly appreciated

BeachandRun23
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby BeachandRun23 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:47 am

Layman's prestige depends on the area. Generally Penn and Duke are the two most prestigous of the these schools. But out of those two, it depends who you ask. People in the south will say duke is more prestigous. Laymen in the south think duke is like harvard (no joke). Up north Penn is probably slightly more prestigous, but I dont think anyone would think duke is a joke.

As far as law schools go, Penn > Duke, but the difference is not huge. Especially since duke has raised their lsat median to 170, which iirc is the same as penn's. So bottom line, id choose whichever of the two schools you feel most comfortable at.

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Veyron
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby Veyron » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:49 am

Whow boy.

Get used to hearing this in law school: it depends.

First, lets start with laymen prestige where.

Duke: More prestigious in the south and with basketball fans
Penn: More prestigious in the north, with the educated, and with businessmen
Cornell: More prestigious in upstate New York and in the hotel industry

Now what does your layman's prestige get you

In law - no one cares, law has its own prestige. However, say you want to go law --> business at some point. Layman's prestige might help you there (as can the schools alumni networks).

since duke has raised their lsat median to 170


Stanford's LSAT median was 170 until last year. I think its a fair bet to say that the relative quality of schools has less to do with median LSAT than you think among the T-14. The difference between Duke and Penn isn't huge, but ITE, it is significant enough to consider.
Last edited by Veyron on Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:52 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Bosque
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby Bosque » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:51 am

damage-inc wrote:I'm loving the metallica references. But....going back to the issue at hand would be greatly appreciated


You do also realise it is almost 3 AM on the East coast, right? Your lucky to be getting any responses at all.

I might come back and respond to this in the morning. But I might not. It is the super bowl after all. Short answer: the employment prospects from each of these schools are different, but not because of a difference in "Prestige." I would say other factors matter more, like class size, location, and the type of job you are talking about.

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Veyron
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby Veyron » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:53 am

Bosque wrote:
damage-inc wrote:I'm loving the metallica references. But....going back to the issue at hand would be greatly appreciated


You do also realise it is almost 3 AM on the East coast, right? Your lucky to be getting any responses at all.


I can't be the only 1L outlining at 3AM on a Saturday night, can I?

BeachandRun23
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby BeachandRun23 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:53 am

Veyron wrote:Stanford's LSAT median was 170 until last year. I think its a fair bet to say that the relative quality of schools has less to do with median LSAT than you think among the T-14. The difference between Duke and Penn isn't huge, but ITE, it is significant enough to consider.


Yeah but stanford's 25th percentile gpa almost equals Penn's 75th percentile gpa...

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:56 am

I'm not sure what you are asking.

In terms of high-paid legal placement, Penn and Duke are marginally (re: MARGINALLY) better than Cornell. So, you would need more money from Cornell to place it on par with Penn and Duke. For example, if Penn/Duke offered $20,000 a year (scholarship), Cornell would need to offer $30,000-$35,000 a year.

However, the strength of the schools depends on what market you are looking for. T14s, generally speaking, are very strong regional schools. Most significant out of region employment is explained by the geographic diversity of the student body. If there is any dispute to this, ask people how easy it is to get CA, IL, or secondary market jobs without connections.

Ignatius Reilly
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby Ignatius Reilly » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:58 am

Veyron wrote:
Bosque wrote:
damage-inc wrote:I'm loving the metallica references. But....going back to the issue at hand would be greatly appreciated


You do also realise it is almost 3 AM on the East coast, right? Your lucky to be getting any responses at all.


I can't be the only 1L outlining at 3AM on a Saturday night, can I?


Do you drink a whiskey and soda while outlining on a sat night?

glacierfrost
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby glacierfrost » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:04 am

+1 on location for relative layman prestige variance.

Here in Cali, probably half of my friends don't really know that Penn is a top school or that it's part of the Ivy League. They're likely to think Penn refers to Penn State or some regular state school.

The order here from what I've experienced in terms of layman prestige would probably be:

1. Cornell (ever heard of it?!)
2. Duke (because of sports)
3. Penn

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Veyron
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby Veyron » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:06 am

Yeah but stanford's 25th percentile gpa almost equals Penn's 75th percentile gpa...


The point. . . you missed it.

Ignatius Reilly wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Bosque wrote:
damage-inc wrote:I'm loving the metallica references. But....going back to the issue at hand would be greatly appreciated


You do also realise it is almost 3 AM on the East coast, right? Your lucky to be getting any responses at all.


I can't be the only 1L outlining at 3AM on a Saturday night, can I?


Do you drink a whiskey and soda while outlining on a sat night?


-
Last edited by Veyron on Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

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lisjjen
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby lisjjen » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:08 am

glacierfrost wrote:+1 on location for relative layman prestige variance.

Here in Cali, probably half of my friends don't really know that Penn is a top school or that it's part of the Ivy League. They're likely to think Penn refers to Penn State or some regular state school.

The order here from what I've experienced in terms of layman prestige would probably be:

1. Cornell (ever heard of it?!)
2. Duke (because of sports)
3. Penn



+1.

Here in Idaho, they kinda huffed and faked a grin when I said I got half scholarship to Texas. On the other hand, when I told them I could go to Cornell for 200k... I actually had a couple of girls tear up and hug me to death.

When I talk about Duke, they immediately ask about basketball, and when I bring up Penn, they tell me they love Joe Paterno.

Ignatius Reilly
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby Ignatius Reilly » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:09 am

^^^you are the stuff attorneys are made of

BeachandRun23
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby BeachandRun23 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:27 am

Veyron wrote:
Yeah but stanford's 25th percentile gpa almost equals Penn's 75th percentile gpa...


The point. . . you missed it.


Its a combination of LSAT median and gpa. What was implicit was that Duke and penn have roughly the same GPA as well as LSAT.

But you go to penn, so it figures you'll troll for that.

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Veyron
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby Veyron » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:31 am

BeachandRun23 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Yeah but stanford's 25th percentile gpa almost equals Penn's 75th percentile gpa...


The point. . . you missed it.


Its a combination of LSAT median and gpa. What was implicit was that Duke and penn have roughly the same GPA as well as LSAT.

But you go to penn, so it figures you'll troll for that.


Dude, you are just not that bright, are you? Your argument is that Duke and Penn are similar because the the LSAT scores are similar, my counter argument was that Duke and Stanford also have similar LSAT medians. I could further say that GULC, Stanford, UVA, etc. all have similar medians and that those schools are all generally considered to have differing qualities.

If you want to argue that Duke is just as good as Penn, the right way to do it would be to talk about placement, people care about that A LOT more than they care about LSAT score.

Ignatius Reilly
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby Ignatius Reilly » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:36 am

Duke has more dbags than any other school in the country. This is a serious drawback.

Michigan ftw

BeachandRun23
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby BeachandRun23 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:40 am

Veyron wrote:Dude, you are just not that bright, are you? Your argument is that Duke and Penn are similar because the the LSAT scores are similar, my counter argument was that Duke and Stanford also have similar LSAT medians. I could further say that GULC, Stanford, UVA, etc. all have similar medians and that those schools are all generally considered to have differing qualities.

If you want to argue that Duke is just as good as Penn, the right way to do it would be to talk about placement, people care about that A LOT more than they care about LSAT score.


Thanks for the personal attack. As far as placement goes, Penn placed an enormous 1% (sarcasm) more grads in NLJ250 firms than Duke. http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf

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Veyron
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby Veyron » Sun Feb 06, 2011 4:50 am

BeachandRun23 wrote:
Veyron wrote:Dude, you are just not that bright, are you? Your argument is that Duke and Penn are similar because the the LSAT scores are similar, my counter argument was that Duke and Stanford also have similar LSAT medians. I could further say that GULC, Stanford, UVA, etc. all have similar medians and that those schools are all generally considered to have differing qualities.

If you want to argue that Duke is just as good as Penn, the right way to do it would be to talk about placement, people care about that A LOT more than they care about LSAT score.


Thanks for the personal attack. As far as placement goes, Penn placed an enormous 1% (sarcasm) more grads in NLJ250 firms than Duke. http://pdfserver.amlaw.com/nlj/law%20sc ... page12.pdf


You are on the right track. However, the way that this argument usually develops next is that I point out all of the flaws with that survey and direct you to search.

I'll give you a little hint, Northwestern is a great school, but HLS still has better biglaw placement.

damage-inc
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby damage-inc » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:13 pm

Veyron, I totally understand what your saying (That undergraduate GPAs and LSATs of the entering class don't determine the quality of the school) but then I think that beachandrun is answer the question at hand much better as well. Theres obviously similarity between the numbers of Stanford and Duke...but Stanford is ranked much higher. And this is more in line with my question...is it the superior prestige of Stanford that increases the intangibles and the class placement and thus leads to a higher ranking?

Of course, that argument would be hard to prove because that would mean that UVA has better prestige than Cornell but I doubt thats true

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beachbum
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby beachbum » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:24 pm

You might as well skip the conversation on prestige and go straight to the job prospects (numbers). And while I'm not sure what your career goals are, it seems that Duke and Penn tend to have marginally better placement than Cornell. All else being equal, go with whichever of those two better suits your goals/personality/lifestyle/feng shui.

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Bosque
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby Bosque » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:25 pm

Ignatius Reilly wrote:Duke has more dbags than any other school in the country. This is a serious drawback.

Michigan ftw


What the f*$^ did I/we ever do to you?

Have you even MET any Duke law students?

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Grizz
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Re: Prestige of Penn vs. Duke vs. Cornell

Postby Grizz » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:29 pm

Ignatius Reilly wrote:Duke has more dbags than any other school in the country. This is a serious drawback.

Michigan ftw


Outed as a BETA




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