Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

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SpWiseGuy
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Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby SpWiseGuy » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:31 pm

Just wanted some input from everyone about this decision. I was just recently accepted to Tulane law school with a 6,000 annual deans scholarship. This school does seem like a great school with a national reputation. Attending Tulane each year is going to run me 35,000 (scholarship factored in) + 20,000 cost of living = $55,000 a year. I also got into Rutgers-Newark with no scholaship which will cost me 24,000 a year + 20,000 cost of living = $44,000 a year.

Pros of Tulane = Better job prospects coming out of this school. It is a private school which means it has a stronger alumni base than Rutgers which is a state school. The student body seems to be a close bunch. I want to have options after graduating when it comes to jobs in the Mid-Atlantic (region I desire to practice law) and Tulane just seems to place their students in Mid-Atlantic jobs well.

Cons of Tulane= 11,000 dollars a year more, which is not that bad. My biggest concern is moving away from my family in philadelphia and my fiance for a long time. But I really want to have options when I graduate from law school rather than being tied down to one region only.

Pros to Rutgers- Great law school, nice faculty and staff. Only one hour drive from Philadelphia so I am practically close to home near my family.

Cons to Rutgers- Job placement in North Jersey seems to be mediocre and placement in NYC seems only to be for the top 5 or so students in the class. Going to school in Newark for 3 years would suck but I would be closer to my family.

My future goals- I want to one day be my own boss whether that is having my own law firm or whatever. I would not mind coming out of law school and working my tail off for a few years in order to learn the trade but I want to have the security that I will find a good first job after law school. I am not really a big fan of big law but if it will open alot of doors for me in the legal profession, I would go for it. I just want to have options at the end of the day and for 11,000 dollars more a year, Tulane might give me the options I am looking for. I might also be wrong.

What are your thoughts on this matter and what would you guys do?

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Grizz
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Grizz » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:37 pm

Retake and reapply. Neither of these schools are worth the price you'll play. In so few words, job prospects from both are bad.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:43 pm

rad law wrote:Retake and reapply. Neither of these schools are worth the price you'll play. In so few words, job prospects from both are bad.


Agree with Rad about cost. Not entirely about job prospects with regards to Tulane. Either way, retake and reapply is the better option of these two.

Don't understand why Temple wouldnt be in the mix here.

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Verity
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Verity » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:43 pm

SpWiseGuy wrote:Pros of Tulane = Better job prospects coming out of this school. It is a private school which means it has a stronger alumni base than Rutgers which is a state school.


Not necessarily true. Private vs. Public has nothing to do with alumni base. I could easily compare Berkeley, Michigan, Virginia and UCLA (public) to Tulane, all of which mop the floor with the latter.

SpWiseGuy wrote:I want to have options after graduating when it comes to jobs in the Mid-Atlantic (region I desire to practice law) and Tulane just seems to place their students in Mid-Atlantic jobs well.


Rutgers-Newark is highly regional, and the Mid-Atlantic is its region. Best prospects are NJ, NYC and Philadelphia.

SpWiseGuy wrote:But I really want to have options when I graduate from law school rather than being tied down to one region only.


It isn't impossible to find a job in D.C. out of Rutgers, and I'm not sure Tulane is much better.




All things considered, the debt burden is significantly higher at Tulane, so much so that it's hard to say that going there would definitely provide better results. Also, it may be easier to rank higher at Rutgers-Newark, looking purely at 0L stats, which may open up those doors to jobs that are usually gained by top students at Rutgers.

You should probably retake, though, and reapply next cycle. I don't know what your numbers are, but if you can kill the LSAT, you'd be doing your entire future an enormously great service.

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Grizz
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Grizz » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:50 pm

Verity wrote:Also, it may be easier to rank higher at Rutgers-Newark, looking purely at 0L stats, which may open up those doors to jobs that are usually gained by top students at Rutgers.


Bad assumption.

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king3780
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby king3780 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:52 pm

I really don't understand why you would think Tulane has a greater alumni base due to being private.

Also, you might make it from Philly to Newark in an hour by helicopter, but not by car.

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Verity
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Verity » Sat Feb 05, 2011 6:56 pm

rad law wrote:
Verity wrote:Also, it may be easier to rank higher at Rutgers-Newark, looking purely at 0L stats, which may open up those doors to jobs that are usually gained by top students at Rutgers.


Bad assumption.



Not really. If GPA and LSAT combined are any indicator of success at studying law, and you're going to have some set potential, then it may be harder to rank high among a group with a statistically higher GPA/LSAT median than one with a lower median.

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moandersen
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby moandersen » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:09 pm

Verity wrote:
rad law wrote:
Verity wrote:Also, it may be easier to rank higher at Rutgers-Newark, looking purely at 0L stats, which may open up those doors to jobs that are usually gained by top students at Rutgers.


Bad assumption.



Not really. If GPA and LSAT combined are any indicator of success at studying law, and you're going to have some set potential, then it may be harder to rank high among a group with a statistically higher GPA/LSAT median than one with a lower median.


0L?

While rad's response may have been short and to the point, he's right. Looking at stats only would make one think that it would be easier, but that is not necessarily true. Its just not a good assumption to make because law school is good at humbling people.

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jwrash
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby jwrash » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:22 pm

Why did you make two threads asking the same exact question?

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Grizz
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Grizz » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:16 pm

moandersen wrote:
Verity wrote:
rad law wrote:
Verity wrote:Also, it may be easier to rank higher at Rutgers-Newark, looking purely at 0L stats, which may open up those doors to jobs that are usually gained by top students at Rutgers.


Bad assumption.



Not really. If GPA and LSAT combined are any indicator of success at studying law, and you're going to have some set potential, then it may be harder to rank high among a group with a statistically higher GPA/LSAT median than one with a lower median.


0L?

While rad's response may have been short and to the point, he's right. Looking at stats only would make one think that it would be easier, but that is not necessarily true. Its just not a good assumption to make because law school is good at humbling people.


So true. In short, studying law and taking legal exams is not like anything anyone has ever done before. Some people get it quickly, and some people don't. LSAT is a mediocre predictor of this. .4 actually.

Image

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Verity
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Verity » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:19 pm

moandersen wrote:
Verity wrote:
rad law wrote:
Verity wrote:Also, it may be easier to rank higher at Rutgers-Newark, looking purely at 0L stats, which may open up those doors to jobs that are usually gained by top students at Rutgers.


Bad assumption.



Not really. If GPA and LSAT combined are any indicator of success at studying law, and you're going to have some set potential, then it may be harder to rank high among a group with a statistically higher GPA/LSAT median than one with a lower median.


0L?

While rad's response may have been short and to the point, he's right. Looking at stats only would make one think that it would be easier, but that is not necessarily true. Its just not a good assumption to make because law school is good at humbling people.


I'm not saying that you'll perform at a certain level at a given law school based on LSAT/GPA. I'm saying that, relative to your peers, if LSAT/GPA has anything to do with law school performance (and it seems pretty important to every school in T1 and T2), then going to a school where the median is lower might put you in a better position relative to your peers. I never said it (i.e., the study of law) would be "easier" in every case. But I think a guy who got a 3.9/177 is probably going to stand out at Cooley.

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Grizz
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Grizz » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:34 pm

Verity wrote:I'm not saying that you'll perform at a certain level at a given law school based on LSAT/GPA. I'm saying that, relative to your peers, if LSAT/GPA has anything to do with law school performance (and it seems pretty important to every school in T1 and T2), then going to a school where the median is lower might put you in a better position relative to your peers. I never said it (i.e., the study of law) would be "easier" in every case. But I think a guy who got a 3.9/177 is probably going to stand out at Cooley.


The poster meant "easier" as "it's easier to perform better against the curve."

LSAT/GPA are the best indicator of performance we have, but they are not a good one. Scores of the incoming class are at least as impt. for USNWR rankings as they are for "quality" and "ability to perform well." 155 vs. a 160 is a handful of questions on the exam. Did you see what a .4 correlation looks like? GPA is an even shittier predictor than LSAT, statistically.

A 177/3.9 might stand out at Cooley, but you don't know. You really don't. All it takes is missing a few issues on an exam to drop someone from the A range to a B+ on a tight curve.

TL;DR - .4 correlation matters in the aggregate but it isn't something to bank on even slightly for any given individual.

SpWiseGuy
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby SpWiseGuy » Sun Feb 06, 2011 12:41 am

Ok thank you everyone for your posts. So I get the point, if i don't get into a t14 law school, I should not go to law school. Even if I get into Georgetown , I should not consider going, I get it guys and gals .

keg411
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby keg411 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:02 am

SpWiseGuy wrote:Ok thank you everyone for your posts. So I get the point, if i don't get into a t14 law school, I should not go to law school. Even if I get into Georgetown , I should not consider going, I get it guys and gals .


Since I do not go to a T13, I obviously cannot be judgmental towards you. However, I will give you my general guide for those who cannot get into T13's.

Know that you want to practice law. Do not go to law school to either 1) extend college or 2) because you are too chickenshit to go out into the real world to get a job.

Know WHERE you want to practice. Law school is regional; you are likely going to be stuck wherever you go, even if you go to a T13. This isn't like college where you can go back to your home state afterward and get a job. You need to be in the general vicinity of where you want to work. Personally, I think this should be your home state (where your immediate family lives) or where you currently live (if you have a family).

Once you know where you want to practice, your best bet is to the state school there. Obviously this is easier in some states than others (depending on your numbers) but this is usually an option.

To the OP: apply to Rutgers-Camden and Temple. Live at home and save COL $$$. If you can't get into either, re-take until you can get into both, preferably with scholarship money on top of it.

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Grizz
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Grizz » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:04 am

SpWiseGuy wrote:Ok thank you everyone for your posts. So I get the point, if i don't get into a t14 law school, I should not go to law school. Even if I get into Georgetown , I should not consider going, I get it guys and gals .


lawl no one said what. Me and Aqua aren't at T14s.

SpWiseGuy
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby SpWiseGuy » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:17 am

Rad law what school do u go too? Also what is your class rank?

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Grizz
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Grizz » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:19 am

SpWiseGuy wrote:Rad law what school do u go too? Also what is your class rank?


A 15-17 school. I'd rather not disclose rank, because I'm fairly well known around here.

SpWiseGuy
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby SpWiseGuy » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:21 am

Hey rad you are screwed as a lawyer bro, your not in a t14 school

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Grizz
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Grizz » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:22 am

SpWiseGuy wrote:Hey rad you are screwed as a lawyer bro, your not in a t14 school


cool story bro

SpWiseGuy
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby SpWiseGuy » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:31 am

Lol. Just breaking balls, I still think tulane will open more doors than rutgers. If I finish in the top third first year , I always have an option of transferring and if I cannot transfer, I still think that tulane looks better on my resume and will open a lot of doors. I mean this point can be debated back and forth til we turn blue but nobody can dispute the fact that tulane is more of a household name than rutgers . People doing hiring are normal people like me and you and they look at a resume and say wow tulane is a good school. That same person would also say that rutgers is a mediocre school. This is just human nature. It is this perception that helps people get jobs.

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Grizz
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Grizz » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:34 am

SpWiseGuy wrote:Lol. Just breaking balls, I still think tulane will open more doors than rutgers. If I finish in the top third first year , I always have an option of transferring and if I cannot transfer, I still think that tulane looks better on my resume and will open a lot of doors. I mean this point can be debated back and forth til we turn blue but nobody can dispute the fact that tulane is more of a household name than rutgers . People doing hiring are normal people like me and you and they look at a resume and say wow tulane is a good school. That same person would also say that rutgers is a mediocre school. This is just human nature. It is this perception that helps people get jobs.


Lay people don't make hiring decisions, unfortunately. It's all about the region you're in. It's as simple as:

Want to work down South? Tulane
Want NY/NJ/Penn? Rutgers

Whether it's worth the debt is up to you in the end, but $165k is gonna be hard to pay down without biglaw.

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Verity
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Verity » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:59 am

rad law wrote:A 177/3.9 might stand out at Cooley, but you don't know. You really don't. All it takes is missing a few issues on an exam to drop someone from the A range to a B+ on a tight curve.



TL;DR - .4 correlation matters in the aggregate but it isn't something to bank on even slightly for any given individual.



Obviously I'm not able to give exact predictions for any one individual, but if we're going to take the odds into consideration at all, higher relative LSAT+GPA relative to peers bodes well for 1Ls in general. I'm talking odds, and you're talking precise predictions. It's true that "all it takes is missing a few issues on an exam to drop someone from the A range to a B+ on a tight curve," but that's also true for all of your peers, and it's less likely that someone who's numerically superior as a 0L will miss those issues, or express them less clearly and directly.

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Grizz
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Grizz » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:18 am

Verity wrote:
rad law wrote:A 177/3.9 might stand out at Cooley, but you don't know. You really don't. All it takes is missing a few issues on an exam to drop someone from the A range to a B+ on a tight curve.



TL;DR - .4 correlation matters in the aggregate but it isn't something to bank on even slightly for any given individual.



Obviously I'm not able to give exact predictions for any one individual, but if we're going to take the odds into consideration at all, higher relative LSAT+GPA relative to peers bodes well for 1Ls in general. I'm talking odds, and you're talking precise predictions. It's true that "all it takes is missing a few issues on an exam to drop someone from the A range to a B+ on a tight curve," but that's also true for all of your peers, and it's less likely that someone who's numerically superior as a 0L will miss those issues, or express them less clearly and directly.


In that case:

The odds are with you, slightly, and it's not something to even remotely bank on.

keg411
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby keg411 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:04 pm

OP: Apply to Temple and Rutgers-Camden. Go to the cheaper school that you get into. End up where you actually want to work/near your family.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Tulane vs Rutgers-Newark

Postby Aqualibrium » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:19 pm

keg411 wrote:OP: Apply to Temple and Rutgers-Camden. Go to the cheaper school that you get into. End up where you actually want to work/near your family.



This. Don't understand why OP is acting like he's being attacked here.




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