What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

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rocon7383
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby rocon7383 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:41 pm

I understand the reasoning behind the pessimism that is directed towards the Cardozo/St.Johns/Brooklyn level of schools. From the tough job placement to the COL in nyc, it would be extremely difficult, and potentially disastrous, to pay sticker with rent and not come out with a job. But there are scenarios where this pessimism is not warranted/relevant. If someone were to get a full ride and commute to one of these schools, do well, and not have it in their mind that they're destined for Skadden, they could be fine. To generalize the job prospects of these schools as horrific for ALL legal positions is disingenuous at best and idiotic at worst.

MrAnon
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby MrAnon » Sun Feb 06, 2011 7:29 pm

Getting a full ride is what, 2% of the class? How many students are getting that?

Attending a T2 law school in NYC does little to improve the average law school hopeful's chances of employment or earnings, compared to just making a go of the world with college degree in hand. Cardozo essentially is Touro. You are not going wow any employer in NYC with a Cardozo degree. The best you can hope for is that you are interviewing with a Cardozo grad who will look kindly upon you. For heavens sakes, it is the #4 school on the island. At most T2 schools the fact that the student attends the school signals that they could not get into an Ivy, or could not get into the best school in the state. In Cardozo's case you are signaling that you could not get into two Ivies, or even the best local school (Fordham). So essentially you are at the second tier of local schools. That is pretty low. And the job opps are commensurate.

SupraVln180
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby SupraVln180 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:31 am

I know a kid who went to Cardozo on a full ride, he wanted to transfer initially, now I think he is just going to drop out. I am not offering an opinion on the school, I actually know some successful lawyers who wound up working outside the city (NJ and LI). But I would considering retaking, if you are dead set on NY and this is your best option.

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thexfactor
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby thexfactor » Mon Feb 07, 2011 12:51 am

lawfreak:

Please do not go to carbozo.

I noticed from your previous posts that you have a 158 and a 3.95. Please retake and ED to UVA. If you can get another 2-5 pts you can have a decent chance at getting into UVA. PJO got into UVA with a similar gpa and a 162 or so on his lsats.

The difference between UVA and Carbozo is night and day.

I urge you to retake in June. You have a great GPA don't waste it on a t2 school that places only for the top 10% of it s class.

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kruiz88
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby kruiz88 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:06 am

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Last edited by kruiz88 on Wed Feb 09, 2011 9:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bankr_assoc_nyc
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby bankr_assoc_nyc » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:11 pm

In response to the original question, as a recent alum ('09), I would say that Cardozo definitely is a strong institution. For the record, I work at a Vault Top 10 law firm in Manhattan. Cardozo feeds students into NYC firms, Cardozo provides considerable financial aid incentives, and Cardozo offers practical and unique courses and learning opportunities. (Notably, the posts above do not seem to focus on that last point.)

JOBS. The large firms are not offering as many summer associate positions now as they did in the boom years. In 2007, my firm's summer class included over 100 summer associates. Of those, eight were Cardozo students (all of whom received offers). In 2009, the summer class substantially shrank. Yet, while quality schools in NYC and other parts of the country had no students in the summer class, Cardozo still had a presence. That may be due to the fact that our firm's partnership includes multiple partners with Cardozo degrees.

NB -- big firms aren't the only employers. It's important to remember that many attorneys make a solid living in medium and small firms as well. I'm not totally familiar with the details, but Cardozo hosts a small- and medium-sized career fair each spring, and several of my classmates attend as representatives for their current firms. I am less savvy about public interest employment, but, if you're interested about that area, contact the school.

FINANCIAL AID. Obviously, law school can be quite expensive. Price was a factor for me. Cardozo offers students helpful packages. I received a scholarship which helped reduce some of the costs. Even though I received a full scholarship from another NY law school, I declined it. One of the reasons I declined that offer was my belief that I should go to school in the same area where I wanted to work. Clearly, that worked out for me.

COURSES. All the top law schools offer good primary courses (Contracts, Civ Pro, etc.) If, however, you have interests in certain areas, such as bankruptcy law or intellectual property, then, Cardozo is ahead of the pack. In my third year I took two cutting-edge seminars separately taught by partners at the law firms ranked first and second for bankruptcy; one course covered business reorganizations and the other covered distressed debt investing. I also participated in a mediation clinic where I was trained and then authorized to mediate small claims court cases. These types of courses and experiences will form your knowledge base post-graduation, and should be factors in selecting a law school.

I won't discuss the specific differences between each of the law schools (mainly because I don't have enough personal knowledge/experience to critique any other school). Nevertheless, I fully endorse attending Cardozo -- it produces top-notch, successful lawyers. And, if you have specific questions about Cardozo, I recommend reaching out to any of them.

ebl1014
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby ebl1014 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:20 pm

bankr_assoc_nyc wrote:In response to the original question, as a recent alum ('09), I would say that Cardozo definitely is a strong institution. For the record, I work at a Vault Top 10 law firm in Manhattan. Cardozo feeds students into NYC firms, Cardozo provides considerable financial aid incentives, and Cardozo offers practical and unique courses and learning opportunities. (Notably, the posts above do not seem to focus on that last point.)

JOBS. The large firms are not offering as many summer associate positions now as they did in the boom years. In 2007, my firm's summer class included over 100 summer associates. Of those, eight were Cardozo students (all of whom received offers). In 2009, the summer class substantially shrank. Yet, while quality schools in NYC and other parts of the country had no students in the summer class, Cardozo still had a presence. That may be due to the fact that our firm's partnership includes multiple partners with Cardozo degrees.

NB -- big firms aren't the only employers. It's important to remember that many attorneys make a solid living in medium and small firms as well. I'm not totally familiar with the details, but Cardozo hosts a small- and medium-sized career fair each spring, and several of my classmates attend as representatives for their current firms. I am less savvy about public interest employment, but, if you're interested about that area, contact the school.

FINANCIAL AID. Obviously, law school can be quite expensive. Price was a factor for me. Cardozo offers students helpful packages. I received a scholarship which helped reduce some of the costs. Even though I received a full scholarship from another NY law school, I declined it. One of the reasons I declined that offer was my belief that I should go to school in the same area where I wanted to work. Clearly, that worked out for me.

COURSES. All the top law schools offer good primary courses (Contracts, Civ Pro, etc.) If, however, you have interests in certain areas, such as bankruptcy law or intellectual property, then, Cardozo is ahead of the pack. In my third year I took two cutting-edge seminars separately taught by partners at the law firms ranked first and second for bankruptcy; one course covered business reorganizations and the other covered distressed debt investing. I also participated in a mediation clinic where I was trained and then authorized to mediate small claims court cases. These types of courses and experiences will form your knowledge base post-graduation, and should be factors in selecting a law school.

I won't discuss the specific differences between each of the law schools (mainly because I don't have enough personal knowledge/experience to critique any other school). Nevertheless, I fully endorse attending Cardozo -- it produces top-notch, successful lawyers. And, if you have specific questions about Cardozo, I recommend reaching out to any of them.


Thank you for a very helpful post!

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bk1
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby bk1 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:39 pm

ebl1014 wrote:
bankr_assoc_nyc wrote:In response to the original question, as a recent alum ('09), I would say that Cardozo definitely is a strong institution. For the record, I work at a Vault Top 10 law firm in Manhattan. Cardozo feeds students into NYC firms, Cardozo provides considerable financial aid incentives, and Cardozo offers practical and unique courses and learning opportunities. (Notably, the posts above do not seem to focus on that last point.)

JOBS. The large firms are not offering as many summer associate positions now as they did in the boom years. In 2007, my firm's summer class included over 100 summer associates. Of those, eight were Cardozo students (all of whom received offers). In 2009, the summer class substantially shrank. Yet, while quality schools in NYC and other parts of the country had no students in the summer class, Cardozo still had a presence. That may be due to the fact that our firm's partnership includes multiple partners with Cardozo degrees.

NB -- big firms aren't the only employers. It's important to remember that many attorneys make a solid living in medium and small firms as well. I'm not totally familiar with the details, but Cardozo hosts a small- and medium-sized career fair each spring, and several of my classmates attend as representatives for their current firms. I am less savvy about public interest employment, but, if you're interested about that area, contact the school.

FINANCIAL AID. Obviously, law school can be quite expensive. Price was a factor for me. Cardozo offers students helpful packages. I received a scholarship which helped reduce some of the costs. Even though I received a full scholarship from another NY law school, I declined it. One of the reasons I declined that offer was my belief that I should go to school in the same area where I wanted to work. Clearly, that worked out for me.

COURSES. All the top law schools offer good primary courses (Contracts, Civ Pro, etc.) If, however, you have interests in certain areas, such as bankruptcy law or intellectual property, then, Cardozo is ahead of the pack. In my third year I took two cutting-edge seminars separately taught by partners at the law firms ranked first and second for bankruptcy; one course covered business reorganizations and the other covered distressed debt investing. I also participated in a mediation clinic where I was trained and then authorized to mediate small claims court cases. These types of courses and experiences will form your knowledge base post-graduation, and should be factors in selecting a law school.

I won't discuss the specific differences between each of the law schools (mainly because I don't have enough personal knowledge/experience to critique any other school). Nevertheless, I fully endorse attending Cardozo -- it produces top-notch, successful lawyers. And, if you have specific questions about Cardozo, I recommend reaching out to any of them.


Thank you for a very helpful post!


That post is more misleading and misguided rather than helpful.

ebl1014
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby ebl1014 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:43 pm

bk1 wrote:
ebl1014 wrote:
bankr_assoc_nyc wrote:In response to the original question, as a recent alum ('09), I would say that Cardozo definitely is a strong institution. For the record, I work at a Vault Top 10 law firm in Manhattan. Cardozo feeds students into NYC firms, Cardozo provides considerable financial aid incentives, and Cardozo offers practical and unique courses and learning opportunities. (Notably, the posts above do not seem to focus on that last point.)

JOBS. The large firms are not offering as many summer associate positions now as they did in the boom years. In 2007, my firm's summer class included over 100 summer associates. Of those, eight were Cardozo students (all of whom received offers). In 2009, the summer class substantially shrank. Yet, while quality schools in NYC and other parts of the country had no students in the summer class, Cardozo still had a presence. That may be due to the fact that our firm's partnership includes multiple partners with Cardozo degrees.

NB -- big firms aren't the only employers. It's important to remember that many attorneys make a solid living in medium and small firms as well. I'm not totally familiar with the details, but Cardozo hosts a small- and medium-sized career fair each spring, and several of my classmates attend as representatives for their current firms. I am less savvy about public interest employment, but, if you're interested about that area, contact the school.

FINANCIAL AID. Obviously, law school can be quite expensive. Price was a factor for me. Cardozo offers students helpful packages. I received a scholarship which helped reduce some of the costs. Even though I received a full scholarship from another NY law school, I declined it. One of the reasons I declined that offer was my belief that I should go to school in the same area where I wanted to work. Clearly, that worked out for me.

COURSES. All the top law schools offer good primary courses (Contracts, Civ Pro, etc.) If, however, you have interests in certain areas, such as bankruptcy law or intellectual property, then, Cardozo is ahead of the pack. In my third year I took two cutting-edge seminars separately taught by partners at the law firms ranked first and second for bankruptcy; one course covered business reorganizations and the other covered distressed debt investing. I also participated in a mediation clinic where I was trained and then authorized to mediate small claims court cases. These types of courses and experiences will form your knowledge base post-graduation, and should be factors in selecting a law school.

I won't discuss the specific differences between each of the law schools (mainly because I don't have enough personal knowledge/experience to critique any other school). Nevertheless, I fully endorse attending Cardozo -- it produces top-notch, successful lawyers. And, if you have specific questions about Cardozo, I recommend reaching out to any of them.


Thank you for a very helpful post!


That post is more misleading and misguided rather than helpful.


What makes you say that? Was your experience while attending Cardozo a lot different than his/hers?

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thexfactor
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby thexfactor » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:45 pm

bankr_assoc_nyc wrote:In response to the original question, as a recent alum ('09), I would say that Cardozo definitely is a strong institution. For the record, I work at a Vault Top 10 law firm in Manhattan. Cardozo feeds students into NYC firms, Cardozo provides considerable financial aid incentives, and Cardozo offers practical and unique courses and learning opportunities. (Notably, the posts above do not seem to focus on that last point.)

JOBS. The large firms are not offering as many summer associate positions now as they did in the boom years. In 2007, my firm's summer class included over 100 summer associates. Of those, eight were Cardozo students (all of whom received offers). In 2009, the summer class substantially shrank. Yet, while quality schools in NYC and other parts of the country had no students in the summer class, Cardozo still had a presence. That may be due to the fact that our firm's partnership includes multiple partners with Cardozo degrees.

NB -- big firms aren't the only employers. It's important to remember that many attorneys make a solid living in medium and small firms as well. I'm not totally familiar with the details, but Cardozo hosts a small- and medium-sized career fair each spring, and several of my classmates attend as representatives for their current firms. I am less savvy about public interest employment, but, if you're interested about that area, contact the school.

FINANCIAL AID. Obviously, law school can be quite expensive. Price was a factor for me. Cardozo offers students helpful packages. I received a scholarship which helped reduce some of the costs. Even though I received a full scholarship from another NY law school, I declined it. One of the reasons I declined that offer was my belief that I should go to school in the same area where I wanted to work. Clearly, that worked out for me.

COURSES. All the top law schools offer good primary courses (Contracts, Civ Pro, etc.) If, however, you have interests in certain areas, such as bankruptcy law or intellectual property, then, Cardozo is ahead of the pack. In my third year I took two cutting-edge seminars separately taught by partners at the law firms ranked first and second for bankruptcy; one course covered business reorganizations and the other covered distressed debt investing. I also participated in a mediation clinic where I was trained and then authorized to mediate small claims court cases. These types of courses and experiences will form your knowledge base post-graduation, and should be factors in selecting a law school.

I won't discuss the specific differences between each of the law schools (mainly because I don't have enough personal knowledge/experience to critique any other school). Nevertheless, I fully endorse attending Cardozo -- it produces top-notch, successful lawyers. And, if you have specific questions about Cardozo, I recommend reaching out to any of them.




What do you mean by presence? 1 associate? 2?

Sure if you are in the top 10% you are likely going to do well coming from cardozo. What about the other 90% of the class? Only 10% of the class is in the top 10%. As dumb as that sounds, i think you are forgetting that.

Fordham grads above top 1/3 are having problems finding jobs. How can Cardozo be doing any better? With that said, how can you endorse someone going to law school when they only have a 1-10 chance of succeeding? I think he is better off playing roulette than going to a T1/T2 school.

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thexfactor
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby thexfactor » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:50 pm

ebl1014 wrote:
bk1 wrote:
ebl1014 wrote:
bankr_assoc_nyc wrote:In response to the original question, as a recent alum ('09), I would say that Cardozo definitely is a strong institution. For the record, I work at a Vault Top 10 law firm in Manhattan. Cardozo feeds students into NYC firms, Cardozo provides considerable financial aid incentives, and Cardozo offers practical and unique courses and learning opportunities. (Notably, the posts above do not seem to focus on that last point.)

JOBS. The large firms are not offering as many summer associate positions now as they did in the boom years. In 2007, my firm's summer class included over 100 summer associates. Of those, eight were Cardozo students (all of whom received offers). In 2009, the summer class substantially shrank. Yet, while quality schools in NYC and other parts of the country had no students in the summer class, Cardozo still had a presence. That may be due to the fact that our firm's partnership includes multiple partners with Cardozo degrees.

NB -- big firms aren't the only employers. It's important to remember that many attorneys make a solid living in medium and small firms as well. I'm not totally familiar with the details, but Cardozo hosts a small- and medium-sized career fair each spring, and several of my classmates attend as representatives for their current firms. I am less savvy about public interest employment, but, if you're interested about that area, contact the school.

FINANCIAL AID. Obviously, law school can be quite expensive. Price was a factor for me. Cardozo offers students helpful packages. I received a scholarship which helped reduce some of the costs. Even though I received a full scholarship from another NY law school, I declined it. One of the reasons I declined that offer was my belief that I should go to school in the same area where I wanted to work. Clearly, that worked out for me.

COURSES. All the top law schools offer good primary courses (Contracts, Civ Pro, etc.) If, however, you have interests in certain areas, such as bankruptcy law or intellectual property, then, Cardozo is ahead of the pack. In my third year I took two cutting-edge seminars separately taught by partners at the law firms ranked first and second for bankruptcy; one course covered business reorganizations and the other covered distressed debt investing. I also participated in a mediation clinic where I was trained and then authorized to mediate small claims court cases. These types of courses and experiences will form your knowledge base post-graduation, and should be factors in selecting a law school.

I won't discuss the specific differences between each of the law schools (mainly because I don't have enough personal knowledge/experience to critique any other school). Nevertheless, I fully endorse attending Cardozo -- it produces top-notch, successful lawyers. And, if you have specific questions about Cardozo, I recommend reaching out to any of them.


Thank you for a very helpful post!


That post is more misleading and misguided rather than helpful.


What makes you say that? Was your experience while attending Cardozo a lot different than his/hers?


I went to a school similarly ranked to Cardozo. People in the top 10% are struggling to find jobs. I have numerous friends in the top 10% who do not have jobs.
For T1/T2s in this market you really need to be in the top 10% in the first year of law school in order to have a chance at working at a big firm.
im willing to bet that the person who wrote the post is in the top 10%-20% of their class.
Back in 07 firms like skadden were hiring over 100 associates. Now they are hiring 30. skadden is not alone. As a whole, I think hiring for SA has went down tremendously.
I think someone counted up the all the SA for NLJ250 Chicago biglaw firms. THere was something like a 60% decrease from 07 or something like that.

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Grizz
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Grizz » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:52 pm

To add on to Xfactor, since NYC firm's don't pay very much attention to ties you can get to NYC from a lot of prestigious schools. And a lot of people from prestigious schools want to go there.

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thexfactor
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby thexfactor » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:56 pm

rad law wrote:To add on to Xfactor, since NYC firm's don't pay very much attention to ties you can get to NYC from a lot of prestigious schools. And a lot of people from prestigious schools want to go there.



fuck... sometimes i feel like im talking to a brick wall. People only hear what they want to hear.

Im one of the "lucky" ones at my school. I have a SA position and I am in the top 10% of my class. Had I known how TOUGH the legal market really is when I was applying to law schools, then I would have never went to LS.

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby androstan » Mon Feb 07, 2011 1:56 pm

lawfreak wrote:Is it a good law school? How does it compare to Fordham and Brooklyn? What are the job prospects? Is it worth going to "sticker" (I think that means with no scholly lol?) being that it's so expensive?

If there's anything else worth noting, please do so. I should also add that I know there's a thread "Cardozo 2011" but that is not really aimed at my questions. That has more to do with admissions which I'm not asking about.

Thanks!


It's ranked 33rd (http://www.cooley.edu/rankings/overall2010.html), which isn't terrible I suppose. Probably not worth sticker ITE.

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Stringer6 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:00 pm

the Cardozo graduate SPECIFICALLY noted non-biglaw jobs.

90% of cardozo grads are NOT unemployed. that is just absurd. people outside the top 10% may be struggling for biglaw, but they can still get jobs.

Im one of the "lucky" ones at my school. I have a SA position and I am in the top 10% of my class. Had I known how TOUGH the legal market really is when I was applying to law schools, then I would have never went to LS.


so, to be clear, you have ZERO idea how people can make a decision like the one you made?

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thexfactor
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby thexfactor » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:02 pm

Stringer6 wrote:the Cardozo graduate SPECIFICALLY noted non-biglaw jobs.

90% of cardozo grads are NOT unemployed. that is just absurd. people outside the top 10% may be struggling for biglaw, but they can still get jobs.

Im one of the "lucky" ones at my school. I have a SA position and I am in the top 10% of my class. Had I known how TOUGH the legal market really is when I was applying to law schools, then I would have never went to LS.


so, to be clear, you have ZERO idea how people can make a decision like the one you made?


back when I was applying, it wasn't that bad yet. The people who got SA positions, for the most part, still got hired back.
I didn't have an accurate idea of how bad hiring really is. I couldn't go on to NALP to see the % change in SA hiring.

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Stringer6 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:04 pm

back when I was applying, it wasn't that bad yet. The people who got SA positions, for the most part, still got hired back.
I didn't have an accurate idea of how bad hiring really is.


so when you were applying, maybe 20% of the class at your school got biglaw? what % would you say?

and you went there.

and now youre preaching about talking to brick walls.

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby afc1910 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:13 pm

.
Last edited by afc1910 on Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Stringer6 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:22 pm

People assume that if they get a JD, regardless of their GPA/rank, they will be given an offer at the end of their 3 years of law school with lots of perks, generous vacation time, and a comfortable corner office overlooking the Central Park (obviously, if you go to Yale, you are in a different boat).


i don't know a single person that assumes this.

i do know tons of TLS posters that LOVE to assume that people assume this.

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thexfactor
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby thexfactor » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:23 pm

afc1910 wrote:
thexfactor wrote:I went to a school similarly ranked to Cardozo. People in the top 10% are struggling to find jobs. I have numerous friends in the top 10% who do not have jobs.
For T1/T2s in this market you really need to be in the top 10% in the first year of law school in order to have a chance at working at a big firm.
im willing to bet that the person who wrote the post is in the top 10%-20% of their class.
Back in 07 firms like skadden were hiring over 100 associates. Now they are hiring 30. skadden is not alone. As a whole, I think hiring for SA has went down tremendously.
I think someone counted up the all the SA for NLJ250 Chicago biglaw firms. THere was something like a 60% decrease from 07 or something like that.


Let's back up here for a minute. Don't you think you have to do well in any school in order to get an offer at a prestigious law firm? Especially in this economy. People assume that if they get a JD, regardless of their GPA/rank, they will be given an offer at the end of their 3 years of law school with lots of perks, generous vacation time, and a comfortable corner office overlooking the Central Park (obviously, if you go to Yale, you are in a different boat).

For instance, I know a 3L who is in top 15% at Brooklyn, and has two offers she is deciding between. I also know a 3L who is in top 50% at Vandy, who doesn't have a job lined up; a WUSTL graduate from last year, who had trouble getting an offer, and finally ended up working at a small law firm for 70k/year; a 2L at NYU who doesn't have a summer position lined up. I also know a BLS graduate who did not do well, and is currently unemployed.

My consensus is that unless you're going to YHS, you shouldn't be paying sticker. However, if you go to 'Dozo/BLS/St.John's with a scholarship and work hard for three years, you CAN find steady legal employment upon graduation. Easier said than done, but still, let's not talk shit about schools right off the bat because they can't place all of their students. They can't magically place every single person they school.


The difference is how "deep" they are willing to go in your class. For biglaw/midlaw the battle is won or lost in the first year of LS. If you do well, you will likely get a job. A firm might go top 10% at Cardozo vs top 1/3 at wustl vs top 50% at vandy vs anyone at harvard.

No one is really exposed beforehand to the LS exam system. Almost all classes have 1 exam for all the marbles. 1 chance for each class. Think about it this way. If i play one hole of golf with Tiger woods, I have a better chance of beating him based on sheer luck. However, if I play 30 rounds with him, my chances of beating him go down the toilet.
With one exam, there is more room for luck.
With that much luck involved, it is naturally better to go to a school where you have a bigger margin of error.

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby bk1 » Mon Feb 07, 2011 2:36 pm

ebl1014 wrote:What makes you say that? Was your experience while attending Cardozo a lot different than his/hers?


I'm a 0L but let's break down where that post is unhelpful.


bankr_assoc_nyc wrote:In response to the original question, as a recent alum ('09), I would say that Cardozo definitely is a strong institution. For the record, I work at a Vault Top 10 law firm in Manhattan. Cardozo feeds students into NYC firms, Cardozo provides considerable financial aid incentives, and Cardozo offers practical and unique courses and learning opportunities. (Notably, the posts above do not seem to focus on that last point.)


Firstly, their perspective is skewed by being an class of 2009 grad who did OCI in 2007 (before the crash). On top of that, whether or not Cardozo provides financial incentives is irrelevant to their placement power and is also irrelevant on a micro scale. It doesn't matter if they give out a ton of full tuition scholarships if you didn't get one.

The egregiously unhelpful part is the fact that they feel like courses and "learning opportunities" are that big of a deal. There is a reason people ignored them, that's because the two most important factors when considering a school are (a)placement power; and (b)cost. What courses are offered are tangential at best (and more likely completely irrelevant) to those main things.

bankr_assoc_nyc wrote:JOBS. The large firms are not offering as many summer associate positions now as they did in the boom years. In 2007, my firm's summer class included over 100 summer associates. Of those, eight were Cardozo students (all of whom received offers). In 2009, the summer class substantially shrank. Yet, while quality schools in NYC and other parts of the country had no students in the summer class, Cardozo still had a presence. That may be due to the fact that our firm's partnership includes multiple partners with Cardozo degrees.

NB -- big firms aren't the only employers. It's important to remember that many attorneys make a solid living in medium and small firms as well. I'm not totally familiar with the details, but Cardozo hosts a small- and medium-sized career fair each spring, and several of my classmates attend as representatives for their current firms. I am less savvy about public interest employment, but, if you're interested about that area, contact the school.


The top firms have always and likely will always cherry pick the best students out of the top of the class at even the lowest of schools. Yes, Cardozo has a presence at these firms, but it is so infinitesimally small that bringing it up is just plain pointless. It's like saying "you can win the lotto if you buy a ticket," to which I respond "no shit, but that doesn't make it a good idea to buy a lotto ticket."

As for small firms, yes you can make a solid living in small/medium firms and most grads would do fine with these types of salaries if law school was cheap. But law school is not cheap and 200k debt from Cardozo is going to suffocate you when you are making 50k/year at a small firm. On top of that they mention PI, something that can often be more prestige-whorish than biglaw itself and they suggest contacting the school. lol, like contacting the school would give one a good perspective on the actual employment opportunities that the school provides. Schools lie and very rarely give out accurate and worthwhile info.

bankr_assoc_nyc wrote:FINANCIAL AID. Obviously, law school can be quite expensive. Price was a factor for me. Cardozo offers students helpful packages. I received a scholarship which helped reduce some of the costs. Even though I received a full scholarship from another NY law school, I declined it. One of the reasons I declined that offer was my belief that I should go to school in the same area where I wanted to work. Clearly, that worked out for me.

COURSES. All the top law schools offer good primary courses (Contracts, Civ Pro, etc.) If, however, you have interests in certain areas, such as bankruptcy law or intellectual property, then, Cardozo is ahead of the pack. In my third year I took two cutting-edge seminars separately taught by partners at the law firms ranked first and second for bankruptcy; one course covered business reorganizations and the other covered distressed debt investing. I also participated in a mediation clinic where I was trained and then authorized to mediate small claims court cases. These types of courses and experiences will form your knowledge base post-graduation, and should be factors in selecting a law school.


As noted above, financial aid being good at a macro level is irrelevant to the individual. What matters for that person is the kind of scholarship they got. Not to mention that a scholarship to Cardozo probably has stipulations that makes it hard to keep after one's first year. On top of that, the school and NYC itself is so expensive that even a 2/3 tuition scholarship is going to leave you with 100k debt still. 100k debt blows when you are likely to end up at 50k/year.

Again, this poster acts like these classes matter for hiring. Who cares whether you are the most eminently knowledgeable person about IP when IP firms don't give a shit about your school. These types of things should not be factors in selecting law school because of the fact that law school is ridiculously expensive. Choose a cheap ass community college if you want to take some interesting courses, choose a law school based on cost/placement power/location because everything else is truly a drop in the bucket compared to those things when you are often setting down 6 figures worth of money and 3 years of time to go to law school.

bankr_assoc_nyc wrote:I won't discuss the specific differences between each of the law schools (mainly because I don't have enough personal knowledge/experience to critique any other school). Nevertheless, I fully endorse attending Cardozo -- it produces top-notch, successful lawyers. And, if you have specific questions about Cardozo, I recommend reaching out to any of them.


Top-notch, successful lawyers? Every school produces successful lawyers, it's just that the bad schools don't produce enough of them to compensate for the debt load that is taken on. As for top-notch, the legal education is so similar at most schools that this claim really is absurd. Is a Harvard grad really better educated than a Georgetown grad? Probably not by that much, if at all, however employers seem to think that the Harvard grad is better. That's the truth about legal hiring: prestige matters, the courses offered rarely do (in regards to selecting which school you should attend).

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evilgenius
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby evilgenius » Mon Feb 14, 2011 2:40 pm

This thread is hilarious. In about 7 months all of the 0L's on this site will realize that they have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Bashing schools, calling them TTTT, etc. is just foolish. Chances are when you graduate someone with a position superior to yours will be an alum of one of the schools your trashing. And I dare you to insult their alma mater.

From what I can tell, most of what's being said about career prospects for Cardozo/Brooklyn/St. Johns grads, doesn't apply to non-trads or URMs. I've gotten the sense from 3L's at my school that employers value students that have taken time off after undergrad to gain experience and figure out whether or not law school is really for them. Similarly, most of the URMs that I know have offers.

All of the 3L's that had 3 or more years work experience before law school have offers for clerkships, firms, or non-profit organizations. No - most of them dont have offers from biglaw. But lets be honest - whether or not their school is T1 or T4, dont get biglaw. Thats just how it is.

Im a URM, 1L at Cardozo, and I have offers from 2 mid-sized law firms and 2 very well known non-profits for summer positions. I'm also a finalist for the NYC Bar Diversity Fellowship - so I may end up with a biglaw offer. With my work experience, its been very easy for me to get interviews. Our rankings don't come out until June, but I'm sure that I'm not in the top 10%. I might be top 20% though.

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BrianGriffintheDog
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby BrianGriffintheDog » Mon Feb 14, 2011 4:54 pm

If you got a job lined up + full scholarship, why not

Rule11
Posts: 160
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Rule11 » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:04 pm

I was hoping this thread had died a quiet death.

I think those who have an open mind can see the problems with bankr_assoc_nyc's "helpful" reply. The most important information he/she could have provided would have been his/her class rank--it's not there, because it's implied. It would not have been possible, or even thinkable, for him/her to get that job, even in the relative boom times of class of 09's OCI, outside of the very top of the class.

Like I've said elsewhere, it's heartless to endorse going to Cardozo because you narrowly escaped the killzone. I'm sure that poster is clever enough to know that it's a bad idea to give advice based on the best possible outcome, without discounting based on the probability of that outcome, so I would have to chalk the post up to heartlessness--an insufficient attention to the dangers that someone else will face.

Nobody has claimed that nobody has good outcomes from Cardozo. That's not the issue, and never was. The question is whether someone should attend. You (Cardozo '09) made it to the top of the pile, so you can't imagine it having worked out any other way, either for you or for anyone else. At a school like Cardozo, which has grade-on LR, your social circle after your first year was probably limited to people with mostly good outcomes, so it's no surprise that you can't/won't acknowledge the other side of the coin.

As a coda--it should be telling that the scant information you provided, principally the school you attended and the year you graduated, was enough for me to narrow your identity down to 2 people within 5 minutes of lazy googling. That's because there are very few similarly-situated Cardozo grads. I recommend that you take your post down, because it does not show your analytical skills in the best light, and somebody less chivalrous than I might out you.

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luckyme
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby luckyme » Mon Feb 14, 2011 6:05 pm

negative




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