What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

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afc1910
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby afc1910 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:24 pm

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Last edited by afc1910 on Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Richie Tenenbaum
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Richie Tenenbaum » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:27 pm

Robespierre wrote:
So how ARE the job prospects? The other posters are correct: the current terrible job market makes the job prospects for Cardozo grads very tough unless you have superb grades and interview well. But the current economic conditions won't go on forever. At some point we'll get back to a situation where a law degree from a good New York law school will get you lucrative employment, at least if you are a presentable person, willing to work, and have been doing something worthwhile in the interim.

So should you go there for sticker? It depends on how badly you want to be a lawyer, how much debt you'd have to take on, how terrible it would be if you were un- or under-employed for a year or two out of school, how confident you are about getting top-notch grades, what other opportunities you have, how much you like NYC, where you see the economy going, etc. etc. etc. Only you can decide.

My brother is Cardozo '09. If you have specific questions, I'll ask him.

Good luck.


TBF, job prospects coming from Cardozo weren't that good when the economy was good.

And unless the OP is independently wealthy (or supported by someone who is), being unemployed after paying sticker at law school will absolutely be terrible.

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bk1
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:47 pm

Robespierre wrote:"Is it a good law school?" Yes. US News & World Reports, which puts out the most often quoted (but hardly infallible) rankings, places it near the top of Tier Two of its four tiers of law schools. It also has the advantage of being in New York City (Greenwich Village) which is a big selling point to many people. It's a desirable school.

You act like being at the top of Tier Two actually means something.

Robespierre wrote:how confident you are about getting top-notch grades.

You act like having confidence in getting good grades has any correlation with ability to get good grades.

Oracl3
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Oracl3 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:11 pm

This is just anecdotal.

1. One of my bosses took a full scholarship at Cardozo over NYU and she really really regretted it. She ended up working two years as a "of counsel" at a big law firm before she could be an associate. She said she graduated top 10% of her class but got shut out of top jobs and still was stuck with significant loans from the cost of living in NYC.

2. My LSAT tutor was a 3L at Cardozo but he got an SA and eventually a job offer from a prestigious big law firm in NYC.

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Grizz
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Grizz » Fri Feb 04, 2011 7:40 pm

Robespierre wrote:"Is it a good law school?" Yes. US News & World Reports, which puts out the most often quoted (but hardly infallible) rankings, places it near the top of Tier Two of its four tiers of law schools.


lol @ T2

"How does it compare to Fordham or Brooklyn?" To answer this on first hand knowledge you'd have to have been a student or teacher at all three, and I imagine no one has done that. It can only be answered on the basis of reputation: Not as good as Fordham; roughly comparable to Brooklyn. But who really cares? If it meets your needs and you have no better options, go there.


lol you don't need to be a student to look at the NLJ250 stats

"Is it worth going to for sticker, being that it's so expensive?" If it gets you high-paying legal work, you're darn right it's worth it, so this is just another way of asking about job prospects.


lol but you can't count on the beforehand duh

But the current economic conditions won't go on forever. At some point we'll get back to a situation where a law degree from a good New York law school will get you lucrative employment, at least if you are a presentable person, willing to work, and have been doing something worthwhile in the interim.


lol 2L OCI, where you get biglaw jerbs, will happen in like 1 yr 6 months for class of 2014.

how confident you are about getting top-notch grades


lololololololololololol

MrAnon
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby MrAnon » Fri Feb 04, 2011 9:28 pm

There are easier ways to be a waiter. Seriously. The school probably students to become waitstaff than biglaw lawyers.

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Stringer6
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Stringer6 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:01 pm

You people at pretentious and unlikeable. You know that, right?

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Lawquacious
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:11 pm

Rule11 wrote: It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal BIGLAW employment.


FTFY. Or at least I highly doubt that 51% of Cardozo and Brooklyn Law grads are chronically struggling to hold legal jobs. Not saying there's not risk, but I also think it is misinformed to make it sound like the chances are better than not that grads from these schools won't find consistent meaningful legal employment.

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rocon7383
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby rocon7383 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:19 pm

Rule11 wrote:I would say that it ranges from bad to terrible. It's noticeably worse than Fordham, which has already been nearly wiped off the hiring map ITE. Top 10% is nearly a prerequisite to get biglaw interviews absent extreme special circumstances. It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in.

There are two schools in NYC worth paying "sticker" for, and even for those some would say it's arguable. Cardozo at sticker is a desperate flail, appropriate only for the independently wealthy (and easily amused).

I say this as someone who knows quite a few successful Cardozo grads. None of them would recommend it to any non-enemy.



What is: Pretentious and douchey, Alec?

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rocon7383
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby rocon7383 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:25 pm

afc1910 wrote:
Rule11 wrote: It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in.


This is far-fetched, buddy. I work at a large national law firm. We just hired two associates from St. John's to start in September (by no means top 5% either), and we have recent graduates from New York Law, Hofstra, Buffalo. Cardozo is a strong regional school. So is Brooklyn. Brooklyn has an advantage of a larger/stronger alumni network, while Cardozo is more popular with younger attorneys.

While I agree with you that there are only two schools in NY where one should pay sticker (unless you're lucky and your parents will cover your tuition/living expenses), I don't think you are without fail going to be left jobless upon graduation from any other school. If you do well, network effectively, and are a personable human being, you'll be ok. Your statement that "odds are atrocious" is obnoxious. And not everyone going to law school is dreaming of working 16 hour days 6 days a week at Skadden for 160k.

I get it. The economy sucks, the legal industry is over-saturated with attorneys, and you're really bitter about it. Wah wah wah!


preach

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Grizz
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Grizz » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:25 pm

Stringer6 wrote:You people at pretentious and unlikeable. You know that, right?


Yeah duder what of it

Rule11
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Rule11 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:40 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
Rule11 wrote: It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal BIGLAW employment.


FTFY. Or at least I highly doubt that 51% of Cardozo and Brooklyn Law grads are chronically struggling to hold legal jobs. Not saying there's not risk, but I also think it is misinformed to make it sound like the chances are better than not that grads from these schools won't find consistent meaningful legal employment.


That's a fascinating statistic.

My opinion is primarily informed by personal observation, so I'll defer.

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Rule11 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:43 pm

rocon7383 wrote:
Rule11 wrote:I would say that it ranges from bad to terrible. It's noticeably worse than Fordham, which has already been nearly wiped off the hiring map ITE. Top 10% is nearly a prerequisite to get biglaw interviews absent extreme special circumstances. It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in.

There are two schools in NYC worth paying "sticker" for, and even for those some would say it's arguable. Cardozo at sticker is a desperate flail, appropriate only for the independently wealthy (and easily amused).

I say this as someone who knows quite a few successful Cardozo grads. None of them would recommend it to any non-enemy.



What is: Pretentious and douchey, Alec?


Pretentious I can see (I do dream big), but "douchey?" Could you elaborate?

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby rocon7383 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:53 pm

Rule11 wrote:
rocon7383 wrote:
Rule11 wrote:I would say that it ranges from bad to terrible. It's noticeably worse than Fordham, which has already been nearly wiped off the hiring map ITE. Top 10% is nearly a prerequisite to get biglaw interviews absent extreme special circumstances. It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in.

There are two schools in NYC worth paying "sticker" for, and even for those some would say it's arguable. Cardozo at sticker is a desperate flail, appropriate only for the independently wealthy (and easily amused).

I say this as someone who knows quite a few successful Cardozo grads. None of them would recommend it to any non-enemy.


What is: Pretentious and douchey, Alec?


Pretentious I can see (I do dream big), but "douchey?" Could you elaborate?


--LinkRemoved--

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Rule11 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:57 pm

afc1910 wrote:
Rule11 wrote:I imagine your furrowed brow as you read my initial reply: "What's this?! What of Cardozo's popularity with younger attorneys? I must intercede!"

Aren't you just so clever with your caustic wit. Proud of you.

But why? You didn't say anything in there that even contradicts something I said, and you agree with me on the most salient point (to be clear: that Cardozo at sticker is not worth it).

Yes, I did. While I think T2 is not worth sticker, I specifically disagreed with your statement that "from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in." What is this statement based on?

I don't know anything about your firm, but many firms cherry-pick a few lottery-winners from the NYC dirty-half-dozen. Mine sure does. So? I acknowledged that some portion of the Cardozo class gets biglaw (and that I know quite a few of these people personally). Another portion does get decent non-biglaw jobs (although many of these jobs are not much better than non-law jobs, particularly with debt/opportunity cost factored in).

I agree with you on this point. But, I know a lot of people who are happy with non-biglaw. Anyone dreaming of big-law has never worked at a law firm and does not undrestand what hell they are signing up for.

I'm not bitter about anything. I'm curious, though, about what interest you have in inflating the perceived value of schools like Cardozo. I'd also like to know what you mean by the (seemingly vacuous) claim that Cardozo is a "strong regional school." In what sense, exactly? Not in its employment prospects.

Finally, I want to emphasize how silly and wrong this statement is: "If you do well, network effectively, and are a personable human being, you'll be ok." Any evidence for this?

Yes, for instance, the two St. John's graduates that are starting at my job at 140k next September. Great people to work with, and great people to grab a beer with after work. I doubt they are the only two people in this city with great work ethic and social skills.

edit: Just reread the final remark and I'm struck again at how loaded and dishonest it is. "If you do well, you'll be ok." Well thanks! Guess that depends on how you define "do well."


Ugh, you come off as such a cantankerous person, and I really shouldn't be participating in this pointless discussion. I understand that you know everything better than all of us, silly law school applicants. You clearly have life figured out. Let's talk in three years, and if it makes you feel any better, if I am unemployed upon graduation, you can take the satisfaction in saying "I told you so!" Deal? Deal.

Now it's time for happy hour.


Sorry, I misunderstood your criticism of the "atrocious" comment. You called it obnoxious--lots of real stuff is obnoxious (single-ply toilet paper comes to mind), so I didn't take that to be a claim that I was wrong.

I guess I'm confused by your evidence regarding the St. John's grads--what were their grades, and how many of their classmates have good jobs? Without those data points, there isn't much meaning to be extracted from your anecdote. Seeing as nobody disputes that a small percentage of Cardozo (and similarly situated) grads get good jobs, well, I'm just not sure where you took us with that.

What you don't understand is that I really don't want to say "I told you so" at all. To anyone. That's why I'm posting. Going to Cardozo is a bad idea, so I'm trying to dissuade people from going. I don't think it makes me special or insightful that I know about Cardozo being bad--I'm just trying to spread the word.

What gets me frothy, though, and why I admit I'm not being so nice in this thread, is when people bleat platitudes to enable others to rationalize bad, life-ruining decisions--like going to Cardozo at sticker price. It's affirmatively corrosive behavior, regardless of the often good underlying intention. So I call it out.

So go ahead and call me a jerk, and take your potshots at my lack of wit. But I'm not going to stop pointing out that Cardozo is a bad investment. How about that for a "deal?"

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:58 pm

Rule11 wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Rule11 wrote: It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal BIGLAW employment.


FTFY. Or at least I highly doubt that 51% of Cardozo and Brooklyn Law grads are chronically struggling to hold legal jobs. Not saying there's not risk, but I also think it is misinformed to make it sound like the chances are better than not that grads from these schools won't find consistent meaningful legal employment.


That's a fascinating statistic.

My opinion is primarily informed by personal observation, so I'll defer.


That "statistic" is a reference to your 'odds are better than not comment.' Odds being better than not = 51% or better chances 'not.'
Last edited by Lawquacious on Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby mpj_3050 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:59 pm

Rule11 wrote:For $200K, it's a shotgun tickling the back of your throat.


Damn.

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Rule11 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 10:59 pm

rocon7383 wrote:
Rule11 wrote:
rocon7383 wrote:
Rule11 wrote:I would say that it ranges from bad to terrible. It's noticeably worse than Fordham, which has already been nearly wiped off the hiring map ITE. Top 10% is nearly a prerequisite to get biglaw interviews absent extreme special circumstances. It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in.

There are two schools in NYC worth paying "sticker" for, and even for those some would say it's arguable. Cardozo at sticker is a desperate flail, appropriate only for the independently wealthy (and easily amused).

I say this as someone who knows quite a few successful Cardozo grads. None of them would recommend it to any non-enemy.


What is: Pretentious and douchey, Alec?


Pretentious I can see (I do dream big), but "douchey?" Could you elaborate?


Oh ... I didn't affirm your rosy worldview. Ok, I'm comfortable with that.

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Lawquacious
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:05 pm

Rule11 wrote:I would say that it ranges from bad to terrible. It's noticeably worse than Fordham, which has already been nearly wiped off the hiring map ITE. Top 10% is nearly a prerequisite to get biglaw interviews absent extreme special circumstances. It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in.
There are two schools in NYC worth paying "sticker" for, and even for those some would say it's arguable. Cardozo at sticker is a desperate flail, appropriate only for the independently wealthy (and easily amused).
I say this as someone who knows quite a few successful Cardozo grads. None of them would recommend it to any non-enemy.

[/quote]


Dude, I don't think its that people necessarily disagree that Cardozo could well be a bad investment for someone at sticker (though admittedly you are insisting that it is necessarily a bad decision and I don't know that most on here would agree with that). I think it is more how strongly you state your case that has gotten some people riled up. Again, if you're talking about BIGLAW employment then I think your analysis, which seems otherwise too harsh to me, is probably fairly accurate.

I admit though, things could be way more bleak at those schools than I think. With such a strong claim (most not getting consistent legal employment from those schools) I would at least like to see it confirmed by others who are at the school or by actual stats.
Last edited by Lawquacious on Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Rule11 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:07 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
Rule11 wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Rule11 wrote: It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal BIGLAW employment.


FTFY. Or at least I highly doubt that 51% of Cardozo and Brooklyn Law grads are chronically struggling to hold legal jobs. Not saying there's not risk, but I also think it is misinformed to make it sound like the chances are better than not that grads from these schools won't find consistent meaningful legal employment.


That's a fascinating statistic.

My opinion is primarily informed by personal observation, so I'll defer.


That "statistic" is a reference to your 'odds are better than not comment.' Odds being better than not = 51% or better chances 'not.' In any case, if you want to mock my logical analysis as lacking a sound basis then at least provide some real stats to back up your claims.


Oh, I understood your inference.

It's an interesting question about who bears the burden of proof here--or it would be, if someone bore it. My money would be on you bearing that burden, since you're trying to say that I'm obnoxious for counseling caution. Fact is, though, that I'm not too concerned because it looks like you don't have any statistics anyway. You just "highly doubt" that I'm right. Absent information one way or the other, my position--prudence--should be the default. So I'm comfortable with where I am on this.

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Lawquacious
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:11 pm

Rule11 wrote:Oh, I understood your inference.

It's an interesting question about who bears the burden of proof here--or it would be, if someone bore it. My money would be on you bearing that burden, since you're trying to say that I'm obnoxious for counseling caution. Fact is, though, that I'm not too concerned because it looks like you don't have any statistics anyway. You just "highly doubt" that I'm right. Absent information one way or the other, my position--prudence--should be the default. So I'm comfortable with where I am on this.



I never said you were obnoxious, though others have. And actually in law the plaintiff- the one asserting a claim- generally bears the initial burden of proof (not the one refuting the claim, unless the claim is proved valid).

I've had enough for now. Anyway dude, best of luck to you, whatever law school you're at.

Rule11
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Rule11 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:11 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
Rule11 wrote:I would say that it ranges from bad to terrible. It's noticeably worse than Fordham, which has already been nearly wiped off the hiring map ITE. Top 10% is nearly a prerequisite to get biglaw interviews absent extreme special circumstances. It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in.
There are two schools in NYC worth paying "sticker" for, and even for those some would say it's arguable. Cardozo at sticker is a desperate flail, appropriate only for the independently wealthy (and easily amused).
I say this as someone who knows quite a few successful Cardozo grads. None of them would recommend it to any non-enemy.




Dude, I don't think its that people necessarily disagree that Cardozo could well be a bad investment for someone at sticker (though admittedly you are insisting that it is necessarily a bad decision and I don't know that most on here would agree with that). I think it is more how strongly you state your case that has gotten some people riled up. Again, if you're talking about BIGLAW employment then I think your analysis, which seems otherwise too harsh to me, is probably fairly accurate.[/quote]

I conceded that some rich dilettante might find it amusing to spend 200K for a vanity degree, so I don't think it's fair to say that I said it was "necessarily a bad decision."

That said, my opinion is strong, so I don't apologize for being straightforward. To wit, I disagree with your last comment--big law from Cardozo is practically a joke at the moment. Cardozo grads are struggling to find anything legal, not just biglaw.

I think the strong negative reaction from some people probably has to do with their hopes and predispositions, not my tone.

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Rule11 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:14 pm

Lawquacious wrote:
Rule11 wrote:Oh, I understood your inference.

It's an interesting question about who bears the burden of proof here--or it would be, if someone bore it. My money would be on you bearing that burden, since you're trying to say that I'm obnoxious for counseling caution. Fact is, though, that I'm not too concerned because it looks like you don't have any statistics anyway. You just "highly doubt" that I'm right. Absent information one way or the other, my position--prudence--should be the default. So I'm comfortable with where I am on this.



I never said you were obnoxious, though others have. And actually in law the plaintiff- the one asserting a claim- generally bears the initial burden of proof (not the one refuting the claim, unless the claim is proved valid).

I've had enough for now. Anyway dude, best of luck to you, whatever law school you're at.


I'm not in law school anymore.

I find your point about plaintiffs puzzling and I'm not sure I can reply to that part without being "obnoxious." Well, maybe I can say this: we're not in court, and this dispute is not saliently analogous to a legal dispute.

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Lawquacious
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:17 pm

Rule11 wrote:I conceded that some rich dilettante might find it amusing to spend 200K for a vanity degree, so I don't think it's fair to say that I said it was "necessarily a bad decision."

That said, my opinion is strong, so I don't apologize for being straightforward. To wit, I disagree with your last comment--big law from Cardozo is practically a joke at the moment. Cardozo grads are struggling to find anything legal, not just biglaw.

I think the strong negative reaction from some people probably has to do with their hopes and predispositions, not my tone.


Point taken re: the exception you mentioned about the sticker price. And I do respect your willingness to stand your ground- it can be a tough thing to do sometimes on TLS.

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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Lawquacious » Fri Feb 04, 2011 11:23 pm

Rule11 wrote:
Lawquacious wrote:
Rule11 wrote:Oh, I understood your inference.

It's an interesting question about who bears the burden of proof here--or it would be, if someone bore it. My money would be on you bearing that burden, since you're trying to say that I'm obnoxious for counseling caution. Fact is, though, that I'm not too concerned because it looks like you don't have any statistics anyway. You just "highly doubt" that I'm right. Absent information one way or the other, my position--prudence--should be the default. So I'm comfortable with where I am on this.



I never said you were obnoxious, though others have. And actually in law the plaintiff- the one asserting a claim- generally bears the initial burden of proof (not the one refuting the claim, unless the claim is proved valid).

I've had enough for now. Anyway dude, best of luck to you, whatever law school you're at.


I'm not in law school anymore.

I find your point about plaintiffs puzzling and I'm not sure I can reply to that part without being "obnoxious." Well, maybe I can say this: we're not in court, and this dispute is not saliently analogous to a legal dispute.


You initially brought up the analogy or concept of burden of proof (which is primarily a legal concept having to do with litigation), so I think it was a fair extention of the analogy. However, the concept may not be particularly relevant here since both of us (I think) are relying on inferences based more or less on anecdotal evidence and opinion. Out of curiousity, where did you graduate from (or what general tier etc)? Also, is it based primarily on your conversations with unemployed grads from the schools mentioned that you are so skeptical of Brooklyn and Cadozo?




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