What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

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lawfreak
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What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby lawfreak » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:11 pm

Is it a good law school? How does it compare to Fordham and Brooklyn? What are the job prospects? Is it worth going to "sticker" (I think that means with no scholly lol?) being that it's so expensive?

If there's anything else worth noting, please do so. I should also add that I know there's a thread "Cardozo 2011" but that is not really aimed at my questions. That has more to do with admissions which I'm not asking about.

Thanks!

Rule11
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Rule11 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:17 pm

I would say that it ranges from bad to terrible. It's noticeably worse than Fordham, which has already been nearly wiped off the hiring map ITE. Top 10% is nearly a prerequisite to get biglaw interviews absent extreme special circumstances. It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in.

There are two schools in NYC worth paying "sticker" for, and even for those some would say it's arguable. Cardozo at sticker is a desperate flail, appropriate only for the independently wealthy (and easily amused).

I say this as someone who knows quite a few successful Cardozo grads. None of them would recommend it to any non-enemy.

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JazzOne
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby JazzOne » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:21 pm

Rule11 wrote:Cardozo at sticker is a desperate flail, appropriate only for the independently wealthy (and easily amused).

lol

Snape
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Snape » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:27 pm

Its a good option if you didnt do so well in undergrad and have an uncle, grandfather, mom who owns a large firm and can guarantee you a job...otherwise its not worth it.

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BrownBears09
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:27 pm

Rule11 wrote:I would say that it ranges from bad to terrible. It's noticeably worse than Fordham, which has already been nearly wiped off the hiring map ITE. Top 10% is nearly a prerequisite to get biglaw interviews absent extreme special circumstances. It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in.

There are two schools in NYC worth paying "sticker" for, and even for those some would say it's arguable. Cardozo at sticker is a desperate flail, appropriate only for the independently wealthy (and easily amused).

I say this as someone who knows quite a few successful Cardozo grads. None of them would recommend it to any non-enemy.

OP: This guy has a generally negative and contradictory tone in a majority of his posts. He seems to enjoy conflict and is rarely offers encouraging advice. I'd ignore this post tbh.

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lawfreak
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby lawfreak » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:31 pm

BrownBears09 wrote:
Rule11 wrote:I would say that it ranges from bad to terrible. It's noticeably worse than Fordham, which has already been nearly wiped off the hiring map ITE. Top 10% is nearly a prerequisite to get biglaw interviews absent extreme special circumstances. It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in.

There are two schools in NYC worth paying "sticker" for, and even for those some would say it's arguable. Cardozo at sticker is a desperate flail, appropriate only for the independently wealthy (and easily amused).

I say this as someone who knows quite a few successful Cardozo grads. None of them would recommend it to any non-enemy.

OP: This guy has a generally negative and contradictory tone in a majority of his posts. He seems to enjoy conflict and is rarely offers encouraging advice. I'd ignore this post tbh.


Thanks for the heads up :)

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JazzOne
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby JazzOne » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:32 pm

BrownBears09 wrote:
Rule11 wrote:I would say that it ranges from bad to terrible. It's noticeably worse than Fordham, which has already been nearly wiped off the hiring map ITE. Top 10% is nearly a prerequisite to get biglaw interviews absent extreme special circumstances. It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in.

There are two schools in NYC worth paying "sticker" for, and even for those some would say it's arguable. Cardozo at sticker is a desperate flail, appropriate only for the independently wealthy (and easily amused).

I say this as someone who knows quite a few successful Cardozo grads. None of them would recommend it to any non-enemy.

OP: This guy has a generally negative and contradictory tone in a majority of his posts. He seems to enjoy conflict and is rarely offers encouraging advice. I'd ignore this post tbh.

I don't hear you encouraging OP to go to Cardozo.

Rule11
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Rule11 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:35 pm

BrownBears09 wrote:OP: This guy has a generally negative and contradictory tone in a majority of his posts. He seems to enjoy conflict and is rarely offers encouraging advice. I'd ignore this post tbh.


How does the sand look from under there?

It is nothing less than cruel of you to encourage OP to ignore my correct advice. Law school is professional school, but a degree from Cardozo will not help you get a job. It will, in fact, hinder your job search. For free, it's a questionable decision, made worse by the substantial opportunity costs involved. For $200K, it's a shotgun tickling the back of your throat.

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bk1
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:37 pm

I found rule11's post to be both humorous and true.

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Stringer6
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Stringer6 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:38 pm

There are two schools in NYC worth paying "sticker" for, and even for those some would say it's arguable.


favorite

Rule11
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Rule11 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:39 pm

lawfreak wrote:
BrownBears09 wrote:
Rule11 wrote:I would say that it ranges from bad to terrible. It's noticeably worse than Fordham, which has already been nearly wiped off the hiring map ITE. Top 10% is nearly a prerequisite to get biglaw interviews absent extreme special circumstances. It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in.

There are two schools in NYC worth paying "sticker" for, and even for those some would say it's arguable. Cardozo at sticker is a desperate flail, appropriate only for the independently wealthy (and easily amused).

I say this as someone who knows quite a few successful Cardozo grads. None of them would recommend it to any non-enemy.

OP: This guy has a generally negative and contradictory tone in a majority of his posts. He seems to enjoy conflict and is rarely offers encouraging advice. I'd ignore this post tbh.


Thanks for the heads up :)


Perhaps then you'll appreciate this heads up as well: my "negativity" is because this post is asking for an opinion about something objectively bad (Cardozo). A lot of law schools are objectively bad, so my advice is often negative. My only allegiance is to the truth.

I'm flattered that BrownBears99 audited my posting history, but it was not helpful for you that he/she did so. Anyway, please don't ask a question if you're not willing to hear the answer.

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Grizz
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Grizz » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:39 pm

bk1 wrote:I found rule11's post to be both humorous and true.


I agree with this and also agree with the part before the stealth edit.

For free, Carbozo is meh, for less than free, it is awful.

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bk1
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:41 pm

rad law wrote:
bk1 wrote:I found rule11's post to be both humorous and true.


I agree with this and also agree with the part before the stealth edit.

For free, Carbozo is meh, for less than free, it is awful.


Stealth edit because I felt my comment did not do justice to the way rule11 eloquently put it. :P

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Stringer6
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Stringer6 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 3:18 pm

My only allegiance is to the truth.


hero

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BrownBears09
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby BrownBears09 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 4:20 pm

Rule11 wrote:I'm flattered that BrownBears99 audited my posting history, but it was not helpful for you that he/she did so. Anyway, please don't ask a question if you're not willing to hear the answer.

It's pretty flattering you'd help improve my argument with your recent thread rant. Stick to CNBC, Dr. Doom.

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Juff
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Juff » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:05 pm

I shadowed an attorney at a Vault 50< firm this past December, and the hiring partner told me that when dealing with schools within NYC, he basically only looks at NYU, Columbia, and some Fordham. I believe he categorized Cardozo as "meh." I know that this is purely anecdotal evidence, but maybe something to think about.

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bk1
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:11 pm

Juff wrote:I shadowed an attorney at a Vault 50< firm this past December, and the hiring partner told me that when dealing with schools within NYC, he basically only looks at NYU, Columbia, and some Fordham. I believe he categorized Cardozo as "meh." I know that this is purely anecdotal evidence, but maybe something to think about.


Might want to go easy on Columbia students. Not sure if they can handle this blow to their ego after already having been rejected by Harvard.

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Stringer6
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Stringer6 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:22 pm

I shadowed an attorney at a Vault 50< firm this past December, and the hiring partner told me that when dealing with schools within NYC, he basically only looks at NYU, Columbia, and some Fordham. I believe he categorized Cardozo as "meh." I know that this is purely anecdotal evidence, but maybe something to think about.


wait. hiring partners have higher regard for nyu, columbia, and fordham than cardozo?

OP is drowning in all this useful info.

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Juff
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Juff » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:33 pm

Stringer6 wrote:
I shadowed an attorney at a Vault 50< firm this past December, and the hiring partner told me that when dealing with schools within NYC, he basically only looks at NYU, Columbia, and some Fordham. I believe he categorized Cardozo as "meh." I know that this is purely anecdotal evidence, but maybe something to think about.


wait. hiring partners have higher regard for nyu, columbia, and fordham than cardozo?

OP is drowning in all this useful info.


And your posts are only adding to that theme.

Edit: And just realized that you are a 0L. Best of luck, champ.
Last edited by Juff on Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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afc1910
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby afc1910 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:39 pm

.
Last edited by afc1910 on Fri Mar 18, 2011 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rule11
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Rule11 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:44 pm

BrownBears09 wrote:
Rule11 wrote:I'm flattered that BrownBears99 audited my posting history, but it was not helpful for you that he/she did so. Anyway, please don't ask a question if you're not willing to hear the answer.

It's pretty flattering you'd help improve my argument with your recent thread rant. Stick to CNBC, Dr. Doom.


Your contributions to this thread have been toxic. I don't want to make this personal, so I'll leave it at that.

The OP wanted opinions about Cardozo. I delivered. You waddled into the thread to squawk about how gosh darn negative I am. That might even be true; even so, yours was not a helpful contribution to the discussion--worse, it appears to have given the OP the psychological comfort necessary to avoid confronting the reality that Cardozo is, as I put it in a previous post, objectively bad, and likely to remain that way for some time.

What do you have to gain from helping someone ruin his or her life? Serious question, so I'll restate it: why did you encourage the OP to ignore my advice about Cardozo, advice you haven't even deigned to controvert? I suspect the answer to that question would tell us more than my history of "negativity" about trash law schools.

Rule11
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Rule11 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:54 pm

afc1910 wrote:
Rule11 wrote: It's not better than Brooklyn in any way that matters; from both schools, odds are against graduates ever finding steady legal employment, and odds are atrocious that graduates will get the kind of jobs they had envisioned going in.


This is far-fetched, buddy. I work at a large national law firm. We just hired two associates from St. John's to start in September (by no means top 5% either), and we have recent graduates from New York Law, Hofstra, Buffalo. Cardozo is a strong regional school. So is Brooklyn. Brooklyn has an advantage of a larger/stronger alumni network, while Cardozo is more popular with younger attorneys.

While I agree with you that there are only two schools in NY where one should pay sticker (unless you're lucky and your parents will cover your tuition/living expenses), I don't think you are without fail going to be left jobless upon graduation from any other school. If you do well, network effectively, and are a personable human being, you'll be ok. Your statement that "odds are atrocious" is obnoxious. And not everyone going to law school is dreaming of working 16 hour days 6 days a week at Skadden for 160k.

I get it. The economy sucks, the legal industry is over-saturated with attorneys, and you're really bitter about it. Wah wah wah!


I imagine your furrowed brow as you read my initial reply: "What's this?! What of Cardozo's popularity with younger attorneys? I must intercede!"

But why? You didn't say anything in there that even contradicts something I said, and you agree with me on the most salient point (to be clear: that Cardozo at sticker is not worth it).

I don't know anything about your firm, but many firms cherry-pick a few lottery-winners from the NYC dirty-half-dozen. Mine sure does. So? I acknowledged that some portion of the Cardozo class gets biglaw (and that I know quite a few of these people personally). Another portion does get decent non-biglaw jobs (although many of these jobs are not much better than non-law jobs, particularly with debt/opportunity cost factored in).

I'm not bitter about anything. I'm curious, though, about what interest you have in inflating the perceived value of schools like Cardozo. I'd also like to know what you mean by the (seemingly vacuous) claim that Cardozo is a "strong regional school." In what sense, exactly? Not in its employment prospects.

Finally, I want to emphasize how silly and wrong this statement is: "If you do well, network effectively, and are a personable human being, you'll be ok." Any evidence for this?

edit: Just reread the final remark and I'm struck again at how loaded and dishonest it is. "If you do well, you'll be ok." Well thanks! Guess that depends on how you define "do well."

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Stringer6
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Stringer6 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 5:57 pm

rule 12: kill yourself

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bk1
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby bk1 » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:03 pm

Rule11 wrote:The OP wanted opinions about Cardozo. I delivered.


Quoted for truth.

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Robespierre
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Re: What is your opinion on Cardozo Law School?

Postby Robespierre » Fri Feb 04, 2011 6:21 pm

lawfreak wrote:Is it a good law school? How does it compare to Fordham and Brooklyn? What are the job prospects? Is it worth going to "sticker" (I think that means with no scholly lol?) being that it's so expensive?

If there's anything else worth noting, please do so. I should also add that I know there's a thread "Cardozo 2011" but that is not really aimed at my questions. That has more to do with admissions which I'm not asking about.

Thanks!


You sound like you're fairly new to this game, so let's discuss these questions on a pretty basic level:

"Is it a good law school?" Yes. US News & World Reports, which puts out the most often quoted (but hardly infallible) rankings, places it near the top of Tier Two of its four tiers of law schools. It also has the advantage of being in New York City (Greenwich Village) which is a big selling point to many people. It's a desirable school.

"How does it compare to Fordham or Brooklyn?" To answer this on first hand knowledge you'd have to have been a student or teacher at all three, and I imagine no one has done that. It can only be answered on the basis of reputation: Not as good as Fordham; roughly comparable to Brooklyn. But who really cares? If it meets your needs and you have no better options, go there.

"What are the job prospects?" More on this below.

"Is it worth going to for sticker, being that it's so expensive?" If it gets you high-paying legal work, you're darn right it's worth it, so this is just another way of asking about job prospects.

So how ARE the job prospects? The other posters are correct: the current terrible job market makes the job prospects for Cardozo grads very tough unless you have superb grades and interview well. But the current economic conditions won't go on forever. At some point we'll get back to a situation where a law degree from a good New York law school will get you lucrative employment, at least if you are a presentable person, willing to work, and have been doing something worthwhile in the interim.

So should you go there for sticker? It depends on how badly you want to be a lawyer, how much debt you'd have to take on, how terrible it would be if you were un- or under-employed for a year or two out of school, how confident you are about getting top-notch grades, what other opportunities you have, how much you like NYC, where you see the economy going, etc. etc. etc. Only you can decide.

My brother is Cardozo '09. If you have specific questions, I'll ask him.

Good luck.




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