Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

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gwuorbust
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:24 pm

romo and rad are right and all you 0Ls advocating GGU need to do a little research before you blabber whatever comes out of your mouth.

The numbers back up the point that there are very limited job prospects from schools like GGU. Think about this intuitively for a second. There are already too many lawyer. There are 2 legal jobs for every 3 graduates. The number of legal jobs is going down due to technological advances. The students from GGU are last in line to get a piece of an increasingly smaller pie. Exceptions do not make the rule, and the rule at GGU is unemployment or being crushed by debt.

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bk1
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:25 pm

Borhas wrote:If GGU places worse than Santa Clara and USF (which I think is probably likely)

then I would say it's closer to TTTT than underrated

CA, especially Bay Area legal market, is really fucking tough, I wouldn't advise going there...


You forgot the far more pertinent graph:

Image

lololol at the fact that the majority of USF/SCU grads from 2009 were working part time. This is pretty much the definition of being fucked.

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Mick Haller
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby Mick Haller » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:26 pm

gwuorbust wrote:romo and rad are right and all you 0Ls advocating GGU need to do a little research before you blabber whatever comes out of your mouth.


If you absolutely have to stay in the Bay Area, GGU might well be the only place where one can graduate debt-free. I think in exceptional circumstances, it makes sense on a full scholarship. But for 95% of applicants, it is probably a bad decision.

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Capitol hillbilly
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby Capitol hillbilly » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:29 pm

akili wrote:
red_alertz wrote:
rad law wrote:
red_alertz wrote:is the 2008 market better/worse than it is now?


Much much better.


could u explain what the data from lawschooltransprancy means? if 08 was worse, doesn't that mean GGU should be much better off now as well? so we can explect better conclusion(whatever that means) from that website?


2008 was better. So now would be worse.


Here's hoping that 2014 will be not-so-bad! This thread is getting interesting, thanks for all the ...errr.. passionate sentiments. My take on the LST data is that GGU has one of the lowest percentages of grads who respond to salary and employment questions. We have to assume that the reasons for declining to respond are not good. In the 2009 employment data sticky (IF ANYONE HAS NOT READ THIS YET, DO SO NOW: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=150681&start=75)
we can see that SCU and USF grads are facing an absolutely terrible job market, with about a 25% chance of finding full time legal jobs 9 months after graduating. GGU is not represented in the sticky, but it's safe to assume that the odds of finding employment are much worse than at USF or SCU. 20%? 15%? Yowza! :(
But I think it's important to make a distinction so that people who might be looking at attending these schools don't feel insulted (this isn't a poop-throwing contest, we are on here to gather information about our future careers, right?).
These are not (necessarily) bad schools, just the employment situation that is bad. If GGU offers me a full ride, would I think about it? You bet. I'm looking at Lewis and Clark at sticker right now as my best option, and it's not like L&C grads are getting NLJ250 jobs either (although employment prospects for L&C is a hell of a lot better than the lower T100 Cali schools.) Anyway- has anyone out there been offered scholarship info from GGU?

Edit: looks like I just repeated the info that was already posted in graph form, oops, I type too slow. Still interested in what scholly info anyone has received though. :lol:
Last edited by Capitol hillbilly on Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:29 pm

Mick Haller wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:romo and rad are right and all you 0Ls advocating GGU need to do a little research before you blabber whatever comes out of your mouth.


If you absolutely have to stay in the Bay Area, GGU might well be the only place where one can graduate debt-free. I think in exceptional circumstances, it makes sense on a full scholarship. But for 95% of applicants, it is probably a bad decision.


I assume that GGU has scholarship stipulations though.

However, if GGU didn't have stips and you got a full ride, I would advocate for that over USF/SCU at sticker. Heck, I might even advocate it over Hastings at sticker assuming that one realized they needed to hustle their ass off to find even a full time legal job.

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Capitol hillbilly
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby Capitol hillbilly » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:32 pm

bk1 wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:
gwuorbust wrote:romo and rad are right and all you 0Ls advocating GGU need to do a little research before you blabber whatever comes out of your mouth.


If you absolutely have to stay in the Bay Area, GGU might well be the only place where one can graduate debt-free. I think in exceptional circumstances, it makes sense on a full scholarship. But for 95% of applicants, it is probably a bad decision.


I assume that GGU has scholarship stipulations though.

However, if GGU didn't have stips and you got a full ride, I would advocate for that over USF/SCU at sticker. Heck, I might even advocate it over Hastings at sticker assuming that one realized they needed to hustle their ass off to find even a full time legal job.


This. Makes sense to me too. We are all gonna be hustlin' anyway

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bk1
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:34 pm

Capitol hillbilly wrote:These are not (necessarily) bad schools, just the employment situation that is bad.


Schools are defined by their employment prospects. Sure, in an imaginary world where there were 200,000 new legal jobs every year and 40,000 graduating JDs per year then things would be great even at GGU. But that is not the case and it never will be the case so that point is beyond moot. Things will never be good enough to justify GGU (outside of a very small minority who would be on a full ride and have the utmost desire to work as a lawyer in the bay area and understand how tough it is out of GGU).

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gwuorbust
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby gwuorbust » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:44 pm

Capitol hillbilly wrote:
This. Makes sense to me too. We are all gonna be hustlin' anyway


or, you know, you could hustle on the front end and retake the LSAT instead of hustling on the back end chasing ambulances the rest of your life.

FiveSermon
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby FiveSermon » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:45 pm

Holy crap. How can anyone attend USF/SCU after seeing those employment statistics.

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red_alertz
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby red_alertz » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

FiveSermon wrote:Holy crap. How can anyone attend USF/SCU after seeing those employment statistics.


if it's close to home and u don't have better alternatives, i'd though USF/SCU would at least be on par with or beat out mcgeorge though, weird

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Capitol hillbilly
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby Capitol hillbilly » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:53 pm

bk1 wrote:
Capitol hillbilly wrote:These are not (necessarily) bad schools, just the employment situation that is bad.


Schools are defined by their employment prospects. Sure, in an imaginary world where there were 200,000 new legal jobs every year and 40,000 graduating JDs per year then things would be great even at GGU. But that is not the case and it never will be the case so that point is beyond moot. Things will never be good enough to justify GGU (outside of a very small minority who would be on a full ride and have the utmost desire to work as a lawyer in the bay area and understand how tough it is out of GGU).

If schools are defined by their employment statistics, then a school could go from "good" to "mediocre" to "horrible" to "good" over a period of ten or twenty years, right? Not sure I agree with that. Making the distinction between a school that is actually a bad educational experience, and a school that may not be bad but takes your money in exchange for a nearly worthless degree, might encourage more GGU applicants to post without fear of ridicule. :oops:

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bk1
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:58 pm

Capitol hillbilly wrote:If schools are defined by their employment statistics, then a school could go from "good" to "mediocre" to "horrible" to "good" over a period of ten or twenty years, right? Not sure I agree with that. Making the distinction between a school that is actually a bad educational experience, and a school that may not be bad but takes your money in exchange for a nearly worthless degree, might encourage more GGU applicants to post without fear of ridicule. :oops:


Yes it very well could. The point is that the actual "educational experience" from all of these schools is worthless compared to the cost. This isn't community college where you can pay $20 to take a course in underwater basketweaving because you find it interesting, this is graduate school where your degree costs $100,000-$150,000 dollars and the actual point of the degree is so that you become employed.

If the crap schools were significantly cheaper than the best schools, then I could understand bringing up "educational experience." But the fact is that schools like GGU and NYLS, even USF and SCU, cost just as much as Stanford, Berkeley, Harvard, etc and when the cost is so high you shouldn't be attending such places so you can "find yourself."

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Capitol hillbilly
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby Capitol hillbilly » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:11 pm

bk1 wrote:
Capitol hillbilly wrote:If schools are defined by their employment statistics, then a school could go from "good" to "mediocre" to "horrible" to "good" over a period of ten or twenty years, right? Not sure I agree with that. Making the distinction between a school that is actually a bad educational experience, and a school that may not be bad but takes your money in exchange for a nearly worthless degree, might encourage more GGU applicants to post without fear of ridicule. :oops:


Yes it very well could. The point is that the actual "educational experience" from all of these schools is worthless compared to the cost. This isn't community college where you can pay $20 to take a course in underwater basketweaving because you find it interesting, this is graduate school where your degree costs $100,000-$150,000 dollars and the actual point of the degree is so that you become employed.

If the crap schools were significantly cheaper than the best schools, then I could understand bringing up "educational experience." But the fact is that schools like GGU and NYLS, even USF and SCU, cost just as much as Stanford, Berkeley, Harvard, etc and when the cost is so high you shouldn't be attending such places so you can "find yourself."


Which brings us back to a "how big of a scholly would make it worthwhile" question- if you really wanted to practice in the bay, knew about the bad employment data, etc. It still surprises me that NO ONE has posted anything about an actual admission or financial aid offer for this TTTToilet yet. I've got three days before a L&C tuition deposit is due, I was sort of hoping that GGU would be trying to entice me with a nice offer, which I could then spurn and post about it on here. :lol:

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bk1
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:15 pm

Capitol hillbilly wrote:Which brings us back to a "how big of a scholly would make it worthwhile" question- if you really wanted to practice in the bay, knew about the bad employment data, etc. It still surprises me that NO ONE has posted anything about an actual admission or financial aid offer for this TTTToilet yet. I've got three days before a L&C tuition deposit is due, I was sort of hoping that GGU would be trying to entice me with a nice offer, which I could then spurn and post about it on here. :lol:


The majority of GGU grads end up working part time. They can't even find work at a small firm. GGU is really that bad because CA is really that bad and GGU sits at the bottom of the CA market.

Even a full ride plus stipend with no stips is questionable considering you don't even have a 50% chance of working full time coming out 3 years later with a degree from GGU (or USF/SCU for that matter).

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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby romothesavior » Mon Apr 11, 2011 2:21 pm

gwuorbust wrote:
Capitol hillbilly wrote:
This. Makes sense to me too. We are all gonna be hustlin' anyway


or, you know, you could hustle on the front end and retake the LSAT instead of hustling on the back end chasing ambulances the rest of your life.

Absolutely. People seem to think hustling in law school and hustling as a young lawyer are easier than hustling on the LSAT. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is far, far easier to improve your job prospects by scoring higher on the LSAT than it is to finish in the top 10% in law school or to go out and "make it rain" after you graduate with a crappy law degree.

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Borhas
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby Borhas » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:00 pm

Capitol hillbilly wrote:This. Makes sense to me too. We are all gonna be hustlin' anyway


for sure, EVERYONE has to hustle

hell if you go to Yale you have to hustle, but you'd be hustling for Art3 clerkships, or SCOTUS if you're really baller, but not PD/DA or small law stuff...

we just hustle for different things.... what you don't want is to be hustling for asbestos lit or some crap like that
Last edited by Borhas on Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby Stringer Bell » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:02 pm

I'm not trying to be a dick, but if you're 35 and are considering attending GG you might really want to rethink this law school thing. Wasting 3 years to wind up without a legal job is hard enough for a 26 year old to overcome, but it's going to be even tougher for you unless you have a default career you can just go right back into if law doesn't work out.

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Capitol hillbilly
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby Capitol hillbilly » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:28 pm

Stringer Bell wrote:I'm not trying to be a dick, but if you're 35 and are considering attending GG you might really want to rethink this law school thing. Wasting 3 years to wind up without a legal job is hard enough for a 26 year old to overcome, but it's going to be even tougher for you unless you have a default career you can just go right back into if law doesn't work out.

No worries, I appreciate your comment! I will most likely be attending Lewis and Clark where an old timer like me might have a better shot. :wink: When I started this thread, I was brand new to TLS... I had visited Hastings, USF and GGU, and it seemed at the time that GGU might be a good deal with a scholarship. I am so much more informed now thanks to all of you on this site, and would never attend SCU, USF or GGU without a free ride or close to it (and I have no illusions about getting a scholarship with my numbers.) Still, there's a great conversation coming out of these pages and I enjoy everyone's input.

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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby drdolittle » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:30 pm

Capitol hillbilly wrote:Which brings us back to a "how big of a scholly would make it worthwhile" question- if you really wanted to practice in the bay, knew about the bad employment data, etc. It still surprises me that NO ONE has posted anything about an actual admission or financial aid offer for this TTTToilet yet. I've got three days before a L&C tuition deposit is due, I was sort of hoping that GGU would be trying to entice me with a nice offer, which I could then spurn and post about it on here. :lol:

Also not trying to be a dick, but I wouldn't hold my breath for a full ride at GGU. If your only option now is LC at full price and you didn't at least get into USF/SCU, then I don't think you'll get much from GGU. Why would they give you such a great deal if they'd approximately know you won't have better bay area options? And as bk mentioned, even if you'll get something, it'll probably have stips that'll make attending very risky.

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Mick Haller
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby Mick Haller » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:32 pm

the best money in CA is at Pepperdine, Loyola, and USD. I believe Chapman is also generous. If you like SoCal, I think any of these options (with significant money of course) is a better option than GGU w/ money.

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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:41 pm

Mick Haller wrote:the best money in CA is at Pepperdine, Loyola, and USD. I believe Chapman is also generous. If you like SoCal, I think any of these options (with significant money of course) is a better option than GGU w/ money.


This is true, however I know Pepperdine and Loyola often have top 1/3 stips on their scholarship which could easily mean you are paying sticker during 2L/3L.

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Mick Haller
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby Mick Haller » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:51 pm

bk1 wrote:
Mick Haller wrote:the best money in CA is at Pepperdine, Loyola, and USD. I believe Chapman is also generous. If you like SoCal, I think any of these options (with significant money of course) is a better option than GGU w/ money.


This is true, however I know Pepperdine and Loyola often have top 1/3 stips on their scholarship which could easily mean you are paying sticker during 2L/3L.


true, but if you aren't top 1/3 at those schools you probably won't be getting a decent job anyway, so it makes perfect sense to drop out in the event you will lose your scholarship. the problem is that most people don't think about that decision rationally.

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bk1
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby bk1 » Mon Apr 11, 2011 3:57 pm

Mick Haller wrote:true, but if you aren't top 1/3 at those schools you probably won't be getting a decent job anyway, so it makes perfect sense to drop out in the event you will lose your scholarship. the problem is that most people don't think about that decision rationally.


I'd bet that median at Loyola/Pepperdine would be able to get a position at a small firm just fine. Lower than that and yes you start getting into the range of "I have a high chance of ending up as a part time contract attorney," but I think there is a range where you would lose your scholarship but you wouldn't be totally boned if you hadn't lost your scholarship. Actually, I don't think people who manage a small firm job who lose their P/L scholly are that boned considering their debt will be around 130k or so? So with a 40-60k job it will suck, but they can get out of debt in 15-20 years. This assumes they still want to be a lawyer.

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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby drdolittle » Mon Apr 11, 2011 4:00 pm

Mick Haller wrote:true, but if you aren't top 1/3 at those schools you probably won't be getting a decent job anyway, so it makes perfect sense to drop out in the event you will lose your scholarship. the problem is that most people don't think about that decision rationally.

I think this might be a reasonable strategy in general, maybe even at tier 1 schools outside the top 14 (or whatever the top national schools are ranked now) but at a different threshold. I wonder how many people seriously consider this though...

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Capitol hillbilly
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Re: Golden Gate University: Underrated or TTTToilet?

Postby Capitol hillbilly » Mon Apr 11, 2011 5:21 pm

drdolittle wrote:
Capitol hillbilly wrote:Which brings us back to a "how big of a scholly would make it worthwhile" question- if you really wanted to practice in the bay, knew about the bad employment data, etc. It still surprises me that NO ONE has posted anything about an actual admission or financial aid offer for this TTTToilet yet. I've got three days before a L&C tuition deposit is due, I was sort of hoping that GGU would be trying to entice me with a nice offer, which I could then spurn and post about it on here. :lol:

Also not trying to be a dick, but I wouldn't hold my breath for a full ride at GGU. If your only option now is LC at full price and you didn't at least get into USF/SCU, then I don't think you'll get much from GGU. Why would they give you such a great deal if they'd approximately know you won't have better bay area options? And as bk mentioned, even if you'll get something, it'll probably have stips that'll make attending very risky.

Agreed, the full ride is not going to happen. I have yet to hear from SCU or USF, my guess is that one or both could offer me an acceptance, but without any money, so it makes no sense. I'm also still praying for an LEOP miracle from Hastings, which I would be willing to pay sticker for, since their PICAP program is fantastic (thanks Borhas for the info on that.) In reality, I'm thrilled to have an option outside of the Bay area, and I'm signing my tuition deposit check today...




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