Top Law Schools

No...I think 40k savings is pretty substantial. If you want to work in FL, I think it's a no-brainer. UIUC is not that much better than UF. Really the only significant ranking distinctions are inside the T20.

Voted UH because it's the only school in Texas and OP says you want to practice in Texas. If that's changed in the last few days/pages to Florida, UF without hesitation.

When picking amongst regional schools, pick your market first, then school.

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thewarflamingo wrote:

General Tso wrote:No...I think 40k savings is pretty substantial. If you want to work in FL, I think it's a no-brainer. UIUC is not that much better than UF. Really the only significant ranking distinctions are inside the T20.

Thank you for your opinion and perspective, I really appreciate it. I'm still keeping my options open, but it seems like UF and UIUC are my top two choices right now. I'm still waiting on scholarship info from CU and UH, but it would take $30k+ from either one of them for them to jump into consideration at this point.

Do you think UIUC would be willing to negotiate with any of my offers? I'm guessing no, but I honestly have no idea. I'll still try negotiating either way.

patrickd139-It's true that I want to practice in TX, but I really don't want to work in Houston (I want Dallas), which is why I'm not considering it at this point unless they offer me a scholarship. I'd rather have the whole state of FL open to me, than just Houston. If I'm really desperate to come back to TX from UIUC, then I'll try for Houston since they apparently have a good alumni base there. I'd rather Houston be my last resort, than the main market open to me.

EDIT: I don't want to clear the results by updating the amount, so just read the UF option as 100K.

I'm glad you're coming to UF ASD so we can sit and ponder wtf we are going to do

OP, just out of curiosity

1. Do you actually want to practice in Florida (or any place you have strong local connections?)

2. If you want to go to Florida, do you realize how bad the legal hiring market is right now?

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:OP, just out of curiosity

1. Do you actually want to practice in Florida (or any place you have strong local connections?)

2. If you want to go to Florida, do you realize how bad the legal hiring market is right now?

+1 to this.

FL is hiring is shit at the moment. 11 lol schools, plus tons of kids from T25ish schools coming back, plus collapse of the housing market = shit.

I find it interesting how when I post a similar list of schools I get told not to go to law school. You've seemed to escape that though. It makes me feel better.

I was always told it was hard to get instate at UF. I chose not to apply there nearly solely on this reason. UIUC has decent NLJ presence. The Campus is very meh if thats any consideration. Flat as a straight edge and 2 hours from serious civilization, as in Chicago.

I think in this situation choose based on market. Which seems to point to UH or UF, although I would caution the in-state assumption on the latter.

boilerup89 wrote:I find it interesting how when I post a similar list of schools I get told not to go to law school. You've seemed to escape that though. It makes me feel better.

I was always told it was hard to get instate at UF. I chose not to apply there nearly solely on this reason. UIUC has decent NLJ presence. The Campus is very meh if thats any consideration. Flat as a straight edge and 2 hours from serious civilization, as in Chicago.

I think in this situation choose based on market. Which seems to point to UH or UF, although I would caution the in-state assumption on the latter.

You're right. I wouldn't go to any of those for that amount of money. Im going not quite $100k in at one of UCLA/Vandy/Tex and I'm scared.

rad law wrote:

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:OP, just out of curiosity

1. Do you actually want to practice in Florida (or any place you have strong local connections?)

2. If you want to go to Florida, do you realize how bad the legal hiring market is right now?

+1 to this.

FL hiring is shit at the moment. 11 lol schools, plus tons of kids from T25ish schools coming back, plus collapse of the housing market = shit.

Stop being generous to the Florida market bro.

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If you got into UIUC then I would definately hold out to hear from SMU. They did some weird things this cycle with admitting only 165+ so far. Did you make it clear in your Why SMU paragraph how much you want Dallas?

Yeah dude FL is horrible. The housing market crash destroyed FL.

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rad law wrote:Yeah dude FL is horrible. The housing market crash destroyed FL.

it seems like FL's housing market crash has been going on for like 30 years now

Rad and Mickey are here in competition to see who can talk more trash about the Florida market (for proof, visit the Norb thread). Its not any worse than your probably think it is. FWIW, I know a handful of people who graduated from Stetson and FSU within the past 2 years that are doing FINE. Every single person I know in the legal field in Tampa is actually doing fine. The first I just stopped working for was actually expanding (doubling) and hiring had a ton of Stetson and UF summer associates at our Christmas party. Maybe everyone I know is the exception and not the rule, but again.. we aren't graduating for 3 and a half years. Rad and Mickey's class will be the last stuck with no jobs, and then us 2014 students will come in and swoop them all up right when they appear

Barbie wrote:Rad and Mickey are here in competition to see who can talk more trash about the Florida market (for proof, visit the Norb thread). Its not any worse than your probably think it is. FWIW, I know a handful of people who graduated from Stetson and FSU within the past 2 years that are doing FINE. Every single person I know in the legal field in Tampa is actually doing fine. The first I just stopped working for was actually expanding (doubling) and hiring had a ton of Stetson and UF summer associates at our Christmas party. Maybe everyone I know is the exception and not the rule, but again.. we aren't graduating for 3 and a half years. Rad and Mickey's class will be the last stuck with no jobs, and then us 2014 students will come in and swoop them all up right when they appear

the obvious sarcasm in our posts was obviously sarcastic. The hiring market in Florida is considerably worse than the picture Barbie paints, the state is horribly over-saturated, and the opportunities from the Florida schools weren't exactly easy to come by pre-ITE. A lot of the higher end job opportunities in Florida are soaked up by T-14 and T-25 kids who migrate back into the state, which leaves schools like Florida largely dependent on networking and connections as a means of getting jobs.
Most of the bigger firms in central Florida where i've been looking (one geographical anecdote) have cut their SA class sizes from 13-20 kids to 2-5, and a handful of them no-offered. I'm not going to be an Mtal, but frankly an "everything will be fine!!" perspective is an immature and harmful one to take.

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:

Barbie wrote:Rad and Mickey are here in competition to see who can talk more trash about the Florida market (for proof, visit the Norb thread). Its not any worse than your probably think it is. FWIW, I know a handful of people who graduated from Stetson and FSU within the past 2 years that are doing FINE. Every single person I know in the legal field in Tampa is actually doing fine. The first I just stopped working for was actually expanding (doubling) and hiring had a ton of Stetson and UF summer associates at our Christmas party. Maybe everyone I know is the exception and not the rule, but again.. we aren't graduating for 3 and a half years. Rad and Mickey's class will be the last stuck with no jobs, and then us 2014 students will come in and swoop them all up right when they appear

the obvious sarcasm in our posts was obviously sarcastic. The hiring market in Florida is considerably worse than the picture Barbie paints, the state is horribly over-saturated, and the opportunities from the Florida schools weren't exactly easy to come by pre-ITE. A lot of the higher end job opportunities in Florida are soaked up by T-14 and T-25 kids who migrate back into the state, which leaves schools like Florida largely dependent on networking and connections as a means of getting jobs.
Most of the bigger firms in central Florida where i've been looking (one geographical anecdote) have cut their SA class sizes from 13-20 kids to 2-5, and a handful of them no-offered. I'm not going to be an Mtal, but frankly an "everything will be fine!!" perspective is an immature and harmful one to take.

I don't have an "everything will be fine" perspective, or else I wouldn't be considering lower ranked schools for debt purposes but I think everyone whos been around TLS this long knows all the pessimistic BS yall are regurgitating OVER and OVER again. We get it. But like I said, the only place I've seen or felt this horrible FL market is on TLS. Everyone I know is fine. Thats a fact. I'm sorry I'm not crying in the corner of my bathroom scared about what I'm going to do post LS-- according to what ya'll are going on about-- we'll have 3 full years to do that.

Barbie wrote:

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:

Barbie wrote:Rad and Mickey are here in competition to see who can talk more trash about the Florida market (for proof, visit the Norb thread). Its not any worse than your probably think it is. FWIW, I know a handful of people who graduated from Stetson and FSU within the past 2 years that are doing FINE. Every single person I know in the legal field in Tampa is actually doing fine. The first I just stopped working for was actually expanding (doubling) and hiring had a ton of Stetson and UF summer associates at our Christmas party. Maybe everyone I know is the exception and not the rule, but again.. we aren't graduating for 3 and a half years. Rad and Mickey's class will be the last stuck with no jobs, and then us 2014 students will come in and swoop them all up right when they appear

the obvious sarcasm in our posts was obviously sarcastic. The hiring market in Florida is considerably worse than the picture Barbie paints, the state is horribly over-saturated, and the opportunities from the Florida schools weren't exactly easy to come by pre-ITE. A lot of the higher end job opportunities in Florida are soaked up by T-14 and T-25 kids who migrate back into the state, which leaves schools like Florida largely dependent on networking and connections as a means of getting jobs.
Most of the bigger firms in central Florida where i've been looking (one geographical anecdote) have cut their SA class sizes from 13-20 kids to 2-5, and a handful of them no-offered. I'm not going to be an Mtal, but frankly an "everything will be fine!!" perspective is an immature and harmful one to take.

I don't have an "everything will be fine" perspective, or else I wouldn't be considering lower ranked schools for debt purposes but I think everyone whos been around TLS this long knows all the pessimistic BS yall are regurgitating OVER and OVER again. We get it. But like I said, the only place I've seen or felt this horrible FL market is on TLS. Everyone I know is fine. Thats a fact. I'm sorry I'm not crying in the corner of my bathroom scared about what I'm going to do post LS-- according to what ya'll are going on about-- we'll have 3 full years to do that.

I never accused you of having an "everything will be fine" perspective, that was unconnected to your post. But to suggest that anything i'm saying is pessimistic or BS is silly of you. Why don't you do me a favor and pick any 30 3Ls at random at any law school in Florida and ask them what their employment options look like. In the "Boom times" about 10% of UF were getting NLJ jobs, and that was the highest in the state. Nowadays you're looking at a 10% chance of getting a job without connections or extensive networking, at best. Do all your friends have connections Barbie? Did any of them get their jobs through mass mailing or OCI, and if so, where in their class were they ranked? Have you done research w/r/t the major markets in Florida, and maybe compared their class sizes to the ones pre-ITE? Are you saying people who have done considerable more research than you are spouting pessimistic BS purely because you have a couple of anecdotes that say otherwise?
Lets not get silly and emotional about this. I'm not advocated anyone cry in the bathroom. I'm telling them to get a good perspective of the gravity of the hiring situation. Talk to 3Ls, talk to hiring partners, hell, go on NALP and see how SA positions opened up in your city. I don't want anyone to throw themselves a pity party, just be more informed.

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:I never accused you of having an "everything will be fine" perspective, that was unconnected to your post. But to suggest that anything i'm saying is pessimistic or BS is silly of you. Why don't you do me a favor and pick any 30 3Ls at random at any law school in Florida and ask them what their employment options look like. In the "Boom times" about 10% of UF were getting NLJ jobs, and that was the highest in the state. Nowadays you're looking at a 10% chance of getting a job without connections or extensive networking, at best. Do all your friends have connections Barbie? Did any of them get their jobs through mass mailing or OCI, and if so, where in their class were they ranked? Have you done research w/r/t the major markets in Florida, and maybe compared their class sizes to the ones pre-ITE? Are you saying people who have done considerable more research than you are spouting pessimistic BS purely because you have a couple of anecdotes that say otherwise?
Lets not get silly and emotional about this. I'm not advocated anyone cry in the bathroom. I'm telling them to get a good perspective of the gravity of the hiring situation. Talk to 3Ls, talk to hiring partners, hell, go on NALP and see how SA positions opened up in your city. I don't want anyone to throw themselves a pity party, just be more informed.

Of course everyone had connections. All my friends who go to FL schools are from Florida. We all have little networks here, including our family (most of my friends have daddy's with $$$ jobs which always open up connections), people we met in UG, prior employment, etc. I feel like most people have some sort of connection, especially someone who is going to a school in their hometown. The OP SAID she has connections in Florida. She has GOOD connections in Florida. You question this in your post as if it is an excuse for my friends to be doing well-- and if thats the case, then the OP may find that same excuse. BTW, most of my info comes from having drinks with the hiring partner (NLJ) after work a few times. He's clearly doing great, but he also hires more than a handful of Stetson and UF grads every year.. and said he plans to increase how many each year in the future because the company is growing.
So, your right, I haven't done a research, but to absolutely repeat AGAIN what I was saying in the first place, from my experience (recent graduates, hiring managers, friends) they are all damn fine.

didn't read the other posts, so maybe it's been said before: bargain for more $$. I'm not sure how well it will work with law schools, but I pitted three schools against each other for undergrad and they increased grants by 50% (1/2 --> 3/4 scholarship). Write letters to all of the schools (except the one that gave you the most $$) telling them how much the highest bidding school gave you. Then list reasons why you want to go to the school and how more $$ would make it possible.

Barbie wrote: Of course everyone had connections. All my friends who go to FL schools are from Florida. We all have little networks here, including our family (most of my friends have daddy's with $$$ jobs which always open up connections), people we met in UG, prior employment, etc. I feel like most people have some sort of connection, especially someone who is going to a school in their hometown. The OP SAID she has connections in Florida. She has GOOD connections in Florida. You question this in your post as if it is an excuse for my friends to be doing well-- and if thats the case, then the OP may find that same excuse. BTW, most of my info comes from having drinks with the hiring partner (NLJ) after work a few times. He's clearly doing great, but he also hires more than a handful of Stetson and UF grads every year.. and said he plans to increase how many each year in the future because the company is growing.
So, your right, I haven't done a research, but to absolutely repeat AGAIN what I was saying in the first place, from my experience (recent graduates, hiring managers, friends) they are all damn fine.

The firm you worked at is an aberration. For the big players (exception: Carlton Fields), hiring has not even begin to creep back. That's not unusual, since like 10% of UF kids of biglaw back in a good economy. So small and midsize firms are where its at (considering de facto and de jure govt. hiring freezes across the state). They are pretty competitive too, and harder to find. Small firms especially are almost straight networking and who you know. I've had the exact opposite experience with people I knew at the school. Unless they were WELL connected (dad's a respected lawyer, etc.), and even then, they had Big Trouble in Little China.

In sum: going to UF or FSU for cheap isn't the worst decision, but if FL doesn't pan out, you have nowhere else to run.

Barbie wrote:
Of course everyone had connections. All my friends who go to FL schools are from Florida. We all have little networks here, including our family (most of my friends have daddy's with $$$ jobs which always open up connections), people we met in UG, prior employment, etc. I feel like most people have some sort of connection, especially someone who is going to a school in their hometown. The OP SAID she has connections in Florida. She has GOOD connections in Florida. You question this in your post as if it is an excuse for my friends to be doing well-- and if thats the case, then the OP may find that same excuse. BTW, most of my info comes from having drinks with the hiring partner (NLJ) after work a few times. He's clearly doing great, but he also hires more than a handful of Stetson and UF grads every year.. and said he plans to increase how many each year in the future because the company is growing.
So, your right, I haven't done a research, but to absolutely repeat AGAIN what I was saying in the first place, from my experience (recent graduates, hiring managers, friends) they are all damn fine.

Sorry, didn't see this earlier. Barbie, there are "connections" aka an uncle who can all but guarantee his firm will hire you when you graduate, and then there are "connections" i.e your neighbor who you barbecue with sometimes who works at a large law firm. Almost everyone is going to have the latter, and they're going to be generally meaningless unless it's to almost the point that it's the former. Especially in Florida where most of the firms are small enough and hurt enough by the economy and are barely taking any kids at all. Carlton Fields (or Fowler, narrowing it down geographically, i'm assuming this is one you're talking about) is the rare exception in this case. The Holland & Knights, Greenberg Taurigs, and Akermans are an hollow shell of what they use to be in terms of SA classes.

I'm not calling your friends opportunities an excuse, but it's certainly a fortunate circumstance (one that is very much in the minority) that kids will be able to actually leverage any connections they have into a real job. Hardly any firms in Florida are "growing" right now, a lot of them are just now getting their head back above water from the past two and a half years, and i'm sorry your personal experiences don't agree with what i'm saying, but on the larger scale of the entire Florida legal market it's just not the case that firms are taking lots of kids, especially lots of kids from Florida schools (the major city busts have a lot of kids from higher schools fleeing back to secondary markets, the hiring pain is trickling all the way down from NYC and exacerbating the problem.)
I don't know what else to say except that I think i'm just going to have a much different outlook on what to expect.

That being said, i'm going to be in Tally the same weekend as ASW, we should totally get drinks.

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:Sorry, didn't see this earlier. Barbie, there are "connections" aka an uncle who can all but guarantee his firm will hire you when you graduate, and then there are "connections" i.e your neighbor who you barbecue with sometimes who works at a large law firm. Almost everyone is going to have the latter, and they're going to be generally meaningless unless it's to almost the point that it's the former. Especially in Florida where most of the firms are small enough and hurt enough by the economy and are barely taking any kids at all. Carlton Fields (or Fowler, narrowing it down geographically, i'm assuming this is one you're talking about) is the rare exception in this case. The Holland & Knights, Greenberg Taurigs, and Akermans are an hollow shell of what they use to be in terms of SA classes.

I'm not calling your friends opportunities an excuse, but it's certainly a fortunate circumstance (one that is very much in the minority) that kids will be able to actually leverage any connections they have into a real job. Hardly any firms in Florida are "growing" right now, a lot of them are just now getting their head back above water from the past two and a half years, and i'm sorry your personal experiences don't agree with what i'm saying, but on the larger scale of the entire Florida legal market it's just not the case that firms are taking lots of kids, especially lots of kids from Florida schools (the major city busts have a lot of kids from higher schools fleeing back to secondary markets, the hiring pain is trickling all the way down from NYC and exacerbating the problem.)
I don't know what else to say except that I think i'm just going to have a much different outlook on what to expect.

That being said, i'm going to be in Tally the same weekend as ASW, we should totally get drinks.

Meaning this weekend? I'll be out on Thurs night. I think there may be some sort of TLS meetup. Will you be in town by then? I'll be leaving pretty early on Fri after the event but I could grab one pretty early in the day.

Also, my personal trainer that I met with yesterday's sister in law graduated from UF last year. Has great job apparently-- but she also did say that she made good grades.

Barbie wrote:

Mickey Quicknumbers wrote:Sorry, didn't see this earlier. Barbie, there are "connections" aka an uncle who can all but guarantee his firm will hire you when you graduate, and then there are "connections" i.e your neighbor who you barbecue with sometimes who works at a large law firm. Almost everyone is going to have the latter, and they're going to be generally meaningless unless it's to almost the point that it's the former. Especially in Florida where most of the firms are small enough and hurt enough by the economy and are barely taking any kids at all. Carlton Fields (or Fowler, narrowing it down geographically, i'm assuming this is one you're talking about) is the rare exception in this case. The Holland & Knights, Greenberg Taurigs, and Akermans are an hollow shell of what they use to be in terms of SA classes.

I'm not calling your friends opportunities an excuse, but it's certainly a fortunate circumstance (one that is very much in the minority) that kids will be able to actually leverage any connections they have into a real job. Hardly any firms in Florida are "growing" right now, a lot of them are just now getting their head back above water from the past two and a half years, and i'm sorry your personal experiences don't agree with what i'm saying, but on the larger scale of the entire Florida legal market it's just not the case that firms are taking lots of kids, especially lots of kids from Florida schools (the major city busts have a lot of kids from higher schools fleeing back to secondary markets, the hiring pain is trickling all the way down from NYC and exacerbating the problem.)
I don't know what else to say except that I think i'm just going to have a much different outlook on what to expect.

That being said, i'm going to be in Tally the same weekend as ASW, we should totally get drinks.

Meaning this weekend? I'll be out on Thurs night. I think there may be some sort of TLS meetup. Will you be in town by then? I'll be leaving pretty early on Fri after the event but I could grab one pretty early in the day.

Also, my personal trainer that I met with yesterday's sister in law graduated from UF last year. Has great job apparently-- but she also did say that she made good grades.

Noooooo I thought it was this weekend. I won't get there till friday night. Bummer.