Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )
User avatar
Blindmelon
Posts: 1708
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Blindmelon » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:53 am

My god you guys are USNews whores. WUSTL/UIUC are peers too.

User avatar
beachbum
Posts: 2766
Joined: Tue Jun 29, 2010 9:35 pm

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby beachbum » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:56 am

Blindmelon wrote:
thegor1987 wrote:After T20, the region and price is huge factor in quality of legal education.


After T10 you mean. T14 is a little overblown ITE. I wouldn't take GULC over UCLA for CA, or Cornell over UT for Texas.

nigelfrost wrote:You are wrong. Besides Duke, USC is the most overrated school in the T20.

Now the drop from GWU to Illinois? Yeah...that's a big drop.


Rancid GW trolling - GW/UIUC are peers.


+1. And blatant anti-Duke/USC trolling. But especially Duke.

/counter-troll

nigelfrost
Posts: 122
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2010 8:42 pm

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby nigelfrost » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:02 pm

Blindmelon wrote: Rancid GW trolling - GW/UIUC are peers.


Dude...look at GW vs. Illinois big law placement. C'mon.

User avatar
Blindmelon
Posts: 1708
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Blindmelon » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:10 pm

nigelfrost wrote:
Blindmelon wrote: Rancid GW trolling - GW/UIUC are peers.


Dude...look at GW vs. Illinois big law placement. C'mon.


Yea, its similar. Whats the actual percentages? I don't feel like looking it up.

Informative
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:10 pm

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Informative » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:23 pm

There is no such thing as T20, really.

There is T14 because these schools remain ranked in the top 14 or so spots year in and year out.

The 15-30 (not 20) schools all bounce around quite a bit. You'll see schools in this range jump four or five spots one year then fall back another four spots the next. The reason is that the raw scores for the schools are only different by a few points. So minor flucutation in variables can have significant impact on ranking in the T15-T30, though the school doesn't change hardly at all even though the ranking is higher or lower than the year before.

Outside of the T30, the disparity between the raw scores becomes a little more pronounced, leading to slightly more solidified rankings, though there are still fluctuations, sometimes significant ones.

Additionally, in terms of job prospects, the T14 reign supreme, as one would expect, the schools in that second grouping (15-30) that do well in biglaw placement are not always the 15-20 schools, but the big name coastal schools in the large markets. Vandy, USC, UCLA, BC, BU, GW, Fordham all do significantly well in BigLaw placement. Texas also does well. You won't see Minnesota, WUSTL or any of the Big Ten schools with a greater than 30% shot at BigLaw due to the lack of biglaw positions open in the school feeder markets.
http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog ... hool-.html

Informative
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:10 pm

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Informative » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:28 pm

Good example of how the rankings fluctuate in the second grouping of law schools (15-30)


http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... 00_present

http://www.prelawhandbook.com/law_schoo ... _1987_1999

User avatar
lisjjen
Posts: 1242
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:19 am

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby lisjjen » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:33 pm

Informative wrote:There is no such thing as T20, really.

There is T14 because these schools remain ranked in the top 14 or so spots year in and year out.



This. You realize that rankings are an abstraction right? Just because one school ranks above the other doesn't automatically make it a better school. If you wanted to work for the IMF in DC, a 4.0 at GWU would get you further than a 4.0 at Berkley.

"Better" is a personal thing. These tiers that TLS obsesses over are a giant waste of time. The only reason there's a distinction with the T14 is because those 14 haven't moved. It's a quasi-objective grouping. It's why I almost buy the concept of the T18. They haven't moved for a while either.

User avatar
Blindmelon
Posts: 1708
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Blindmelon » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:43 pm

lisjjen wrote:If you wanted to work for the IMF in DC, a 4.0 at GWU would get you further than a 4.0 at Berkley.



Thats objectively false. Public service orgs are prestige-whores and Berkeley is no question more prestigious than GW. Regional power doesn't translate that well to government jobs - they take grads from around the country regardless of region.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:45 pm

Blindmelon wrote:My god you guys are USNews whores. WUSTL/UIUC are peers too.

+1. Jesus Christ people. WUSTL/UIUC/GW are peers. USC is not overrated. Look at the recent NLJ 250 numbers. They beat WUSTL/UIUC by like 15%.

User avatar
Marionberry
Posts: 1302
Joined: Fri Apr 23, 2010 9:24 pm

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Marionberry » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:49 pm

this thread NEEDS MOAR CONJECTURE

User avatar
lisjjen
Posts: 1242
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:19 am

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby lisjjen » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:52 pm

Blindmelon wrote:
lisjjen wrote:If you wanted to work for the IMF in DC, a 4.0 at GWU would get you further than a 4.0 at Berkley.



Thats objectively false. Public service orgs are prestige-whores and Berkeley is no question more prestigious than GW. Regional power doesn't translate that well to government jobs - they take grads from around the country regardless of region.


I kinda stopped listening after you called the IMF public service.

But carry on. My work experience on Capitol Hill, my business contact at the IMF and my friend who works in Career Services at HLS are all irrelevant, I'm sure.

User avatar
Blindmelon
Posts: 1708
Joined: Thu Mar 26, 2009 11:13 am

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Blindmelon » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:57 pm

lisjjen wrote:
Blindmelon wrote:
lisjjen wrote:If you wanted to work for the IMF in DC, a 4.0 at GWU would get you further than a 4.0 at Berkley.



Thats objectively false. Public service orgs are prestige-whores and Berkeley is no question more prestigious than GW. Regional power doesn't translate that well to government jobs - they take grads from around the country regardless of region.


I kinda stopped listening after you called the IMF public service.

But carry on. My work experience on Capitol Hill, my business contact at the IMF and my friend who works in Career Services at HLS are all irrelevant, I'm sure.


Regardless of your political beliefs, it isn't exactly a law firm.

I have a friend who um, says that a 4.0 at BU is better than a 4.0 at Columbia for the UN. For realz, I know people in the UN who said that.

jarofsoup
Posts: 1952
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:41 am

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby jarofsoup » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:01 pm

My opinion is that there is not a huge difference except national placement is T14 then as you go down the list it gets more and more regional.

Also you have to have a higher ranking in the lower T1 schools to get a big law job....

Anacreon
Posts: 102
Joined: Wed Jan 12, 2011 4:18 am

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Anacreon » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:02 pm

jarofsoup wrote:My opinion is that there is not a huge difference except national placement is T14 then as you go down the list it gets more and more regional.

Also you have to have a higher ranking in the lower T1 schools to get a big law job....


What's lower T1 - 34 on down? 14 on down? 18? 20? 50?

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:03 pm

This thread is a mega-fail. Most of you have no idea what you are talking about.

User avatar
lisjjen
Posts: 1242
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:19 am

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby lisjjen » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:07 pm

Blindmelon wrote:Regardless of your political beliefs, it isn't exactly a law firm.

I have a friend who um, says that a 4.0 at BU is better than a 4.0 at Columbia for the UN. For realz, I know people in the UN who said that.


The first part is credited.

The second part... just no. I used GWU and the IMF for a very specific reason. The fact that you can walk from one to the other in 5 minutes is important, and I frankly don't care if you take my sources seriously or not.

Now... let me hear you disagree that a 4.0 at Boalt is better than a 4.0 at GULC for DC work.

User avatar
lisjjen
Posts: 1242
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:19 am

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby lisjjen » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:08 pm

romothesavior wrote:This thread is a mega-fail. Most of you have no idea what you are talking about.


Then I've been misinformed. But I'm unwilling to believe that USNWR ranking is the sole determinant for a succesful career.

User avatar
romothesavior
Posts: 14772
Joined: Fri Jun 26, 2009 4:29 pm

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby romothesavior » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:17 pm

lisjjen wrote:
romothesavior wrote:This thread is a mega-fail. Most of you have no idea what you are talking about.


Then I've been misinformed. But I'm unwilling to believe that USNWR ranking is the sole determinant for a succesful career.

I wasn't even really talking about you. I just can't believe that people are willing to call schools overrated or underrated without looking at the job statistics.

And re: this whole debate about GWU/Boalt, using 4.0 students at either school as your benchmark is utterly ridiculous. A 4.0 with even a hint of people skills is going to get almost whatever they want from GWU/Boalt. It is a terrible way to compare schools. Let's see who fares better for government work in DC... the median student at GWU, or the median student from Boalt? Or the top 1/3 student at GWU or the top 1/3 student at Boalt? I'm not sure of the answer, to be honest. I just think this a far, far better way to compare schools than by talking about students with stellar grades.

User avatar
whitman
Posts: 819
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:08 am

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby whitman » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:25 pm

OK, obviously lumping Vandy, UCLA, Texas, and USC with everyone else in "T15-T30" is just silly. The "T18" is pretty clear, though it probably makes sense to lump 15-18 into its own tier. VTLS? Or is it CGVTLS? Even if WashU ties USC in the rankings this year, I don't see that as changing the situation.

Also, 30 is such an arbitrary line to draw. As everyone says, it's more regional. If I wasn't attached to a particular market, I would give schools like UWashington a hard look if my other options were UIllinois, WashU, etc, because they own that market - even though they're only ranked 34. Granted, it's a tough, shrinking market, but still. It definitely makes sense to treat it on a case by case basis.

User avatar
lisjjen
Posts: 1242
Joined: Wed Jun 30, 2010 12:19 am

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby lisjjen » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:25 pm

romothesavior wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
romothesavior wrote:This thread is a mega-fail. Most of you have no idea what you are talking about.


Then I've been misinformed. But I'm unwilling to believe that USNWR ranking is the sole determinant for a succesful career.

I wasn't even really talking about you. I just can't believe that people are willing to call schools overrated or underrated without looking at the job statistics.

And re: this whole debate about GWU/Boalt, using 4.0 students at either school as your benchmark is utterly ridiculous. A 4.0 with even a hint of people skills is going to get almost whatever they want from GWU/Boalt. It is a terrible way to compare schools. Let's see who fares better for government work in DC... the median student at GWU, or the median student from Boalt? Or the top 1/3 student at GWU or the top 1/3 student at Boalt? I'm not sure of the answer, to be honest. I just think this a far, far better way to compare schools than by talking about students with stellar grades.


TITCR. 4.0 at Boalt and 4.0 at GWU will have offices across from each other because they'd both be hired. However, for the average student, GWU offers proximity to jobs like that and fellowships on the Hill to beef up the ol' resume.

User avatar
Grizz
Posts: 10583
Joined: Mon Jan 04, 2010 6:31 pm

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Grizz » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:45 pm

jarofsoup wrote:My opinion is that there is not a huge difference except national placement is T14 then as you go down the list it gets more and more regional.


Wow this is stupid. It's ALL regional. If you're gonna be an 0L, at least be informed.




rad law wrote:This whole T14 are national, everything else is regional thing is pretty dumb. Everything is regional. The legs of your degree depend on 1) The school's name brand recognition in the market you're targeting, 2) your grades, 3) and your ties to the market you want.
Last edited by Grizz on Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
AreJay711
Posts: 3406
Joined: Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:51 pm

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby AreJay711 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:48 pm

rad law wrote:Wow this is stupid. If you're gonna be an 0L, at least be informed.


:lol:

Informative
Posts: 429
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 6:10 pm

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Informative » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:20 pm

romothesavior wrote:This thread is a mega-fail. Most of you have no idea what you are talking about.



This is probably true. Blindmelon and I, however, are not 0Ls. We have been through OCI and can give you our hiring experiences from our days as law students. I have been both the interviewee and the interviewer for biglaw. I don't know a lot of people on this thread, but I can vouch for Blindmelon as she/he has given good practical advice in other threads over the past few years (I think going back to LSD).

jarofsoup
Posts: 1952
Joined: Tue Jul 01, 2008 2:41 am

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby jarofsoup » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:42 pm

rad law wrote:
jarofsoup wrote:My opinion is that there is not a huge difference except national placement is T14 then as you go down the list it gets more and more regional.


Wow this is stupid. It's ALL regional. If you're gonna be an 0L, at least be informed.




rad law wrote:This whole T14 are national, everything else is regional thing is pretty dumb. Everything is regional. The legs of your degree depend on 1) The school's name brand recognition in the market you're targeting, 2) your grades, 3) and your ties to the market you want.


I said more and more not all and I am unsure why my comment is uninformed. I think it is safe to say that Yale has a national reach while GWU has less of one.
Last edited by jarofsoup on Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
bk1
Posts: 18424
Joined: Sun Mar 14, 2010 7:06 pm

Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby bk1 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:43 pm

jarofsoup wrote:So Harvard graduates only work in Mass? Yale grad's only work in Conn, Standford grades only work in California?

That is not really reflected in reality.


Are you fucking dumb?




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests