Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

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Veyron
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 01, 2011 11:24 pm

lisjjen wrote:
Veyron wrote:Looks like I need to retake the LSAT.


You guys really aren't disagreeing. You commented on the utility of a degree from variously ranked institutions. On the other hand, RadLaw stated a criterion for categorizing the effects of any particular degree. The two are not inherently in conflict.

You gave a length, and he gave a ruler.


Hence why I need to re-take the LSAT, classic mistake. Been focusing on BLL for too long.

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lisjjen
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby lisjjen » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:41 am

Veyron wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
Veyron wrote:Looks like I need to retake the LSAT.


You guys really aren't disagreeing. You commented on the utility of a degree from variously ranked institutions. On the other hand, RadLaw stated a criterion for categorizing the effects of any particular degree. The two are not inherently in conflict.

You gave a length, and he gave a ruler.


Hence why I need to re-take the LSAT, classic mistake. Been focusing on BLL for too long.


Biddle Law Library?

Anyways, I've heard a ton of people troll for Vandy and UT (for which I am grateful). However, I'm wondering if Cornell or Michigan would offer benefits that the others couldn't. Would you care to troll for the T14?

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Grizz
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Grizz » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:46 am

lisjjen wrote:
Veyron wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
Veyron wrote:Looks like I need to retake the LSAT.


You guys really aren't disagreeing. You commented on the utility of a degree from variously ranked institutions. On the other hand, RadLaw stated a criterion for categorizing the effects of any particular degree. The two are not inherently in conflict.

You gave a length, and he gave a ruler.


Hence why I need to re-take the LSAT, classic mistake. Been focusing on BLL for too long.


Biddle Law Library?

Anyways, I've heard a ton of people troll for Vandy and UT (for which I am grateful). However, I'm wondering if Cornell or Michigan would offer benefits that the others couldn't. Would you care to troll for the T14?


Black letter law, duder?

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Veyron
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:49 am

lisjjen wrote:
Veyron wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
Veyron wrote:Looks like I need to retake the LSAT.


You guys really aren't disagreeing. You commented on the utility of a degree from variously ranked institutions. On the other hand, RadLaw stated a criterion for categorizing the effects of any particular degree. The two are not inherently in conflict.

You gave a length, and he gave a ruler.


Hence why I need to re-take the LSAT, classic mistake. Been focusing on BLL for too long.


Biddle Law Library?

Anyways, I've heard a ton of people troll for Vandy and UT (for which I am grateful). However, I'm wondering if Cornell or Michigan would offer benefits that the others couldn't. Would you care to troll for the T14?


Black letter law.

Only one of my target markets is non-primary so I can only speak with authority as to that. There I would say that Michigan is definitely going to offer advantages over Vandy and UT and probably over Cornell (because of the T-10ness at firms that put the cutoff there instead of T-14) and also because oddly enough more firms from that market (used to?) recruit at Michigan than just about any other T-14. Its just one of those strange market by market peculiarities. For NYC, I can't imagine that the difference would be particularly large.

Casey2889
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Casey2889 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 12:59 am

Veyron wrote:
rad law wrote:This whole T14 are national, everything else is regional thing is pretty dumb. Everything is regional. The legs of your degree depend on 1) The school's name brand recognition in the market you're targeting, 2) your grades, 3) and your ties to the market you want.


This is not true in my experience. The T-10 (or 14) depending on the firm are considered elite as a group even in markets 1000 miles from the nearest one (I've spoken with people who know hiring in this regard). Everything else is regional. The regions in which UCLA, Texas, and Vandy are considered good are pretty large but the cutoffs for them won't be the same as even the cutoff for GULC (or #10, again depending) outside of those regions or in NYC for that matter.

What you will often find is that distinctions among the T-14 tend to collapse in some markets far removed from the proximity of any of those schools so that hiring cutoffs will look:

HY(S - Western U.S.) > C-G

However, in proximity does matter even for the T-14 (except for H and Y) so that in (whatever remains of) Philly biglaw for example you might see:

HY > P(S?) > CCN > MV > DCNGB

I hope that these facts are helpful. You may now return to speculation.


so much east coast bias on TLS. as someone who is from the west coast but has lived in the northeast for the last 3.5 years for UG, it's amazing to see how SLS/boalt/UCLA get shat on in threads like this.

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Veyron
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Veyron » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:12 am

Casey2889 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
rad law wrote:This whole T14 are national, everything else is regional thing is pretty dumb. Everything is regional. The legs of your degree depend on 1) The school's name brand recognition in the market you're targeting, 2) your grades, 3) and your ties to the market you want.


This is not true in my experience. The T-10 (or 14) depending on the firm are considered elite as a group even in markets 1000 miles from the nearest one (I've spoken with people who know hiring in this regard). Everything else is regional. The regions in which UCLA, Texas, and Vandy are considered good are pretty large but the cutoffs for them won't be the same as even the cutoff for GULC (or #10, again depending) outside of those regions or in NYC for that matter.

What you will often find is that distinctions among the T-14 tend to collapse in some markets far removed from the proximity of any of those schools so that hiring cutoffs will look:

HY(S - Western U.S.) > C-G

However, in proximity does matter even for the T-14 (except for H and Y) so that in (whatever remains of) Philly biglaw for example you might see:

HY > P(S?) > CCN > MV > DCNGB

I hope that these facts are helpful. You may now return to speculation.


so much east coast bias on TLS. as someone who is from the west coast but has lived in the northeast for the last 3.5 years for UG, it's amazing to see how SLS/boalt/UCLA get shat on in threads like this.


TBF, I was also shocked when I discovered how SLS gets shat on out here. Boalt and UCLA are just generally doing abysmally because CA firms are crumbling into the ground along with the rest of the state.

Casey2889
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Casey2889 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:19 am

i dont just say this b/c i'm going to SLS, but CA is resilient. we'll be back and ready lead.

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Veyron
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Veyron » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:31 am

Casey2889 wrote:i dont just say this b/c i'm going to SLS, but CA is resilient. we'll be back and ready lead.


I believe you, the West has a special sort of spirit.

Just remember that in 2006 people regularly turned down V5 firms for Latham. Things shift quickly, my observations only reflect the way I see the world right now, I don't have any doubt that things can and will change again.

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androstan
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby androstan » Thu Feb 03, 2011 1:53 am

Is it possible that GULC/GW have slightly lower NLJ250 numbers because those students self-select more into gov/PI due to the DC location?

thegor1987
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby thegor1987 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:00 am

I'm still trying to figure out what the thread title is supposed to mean

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androstan
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby androstan » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:04 am

thegor1987 wrote:I'm still trying to figure out what the thread title is supposed to mean


Is there a bigger drop off when going from the t14 grouping to the t20 grouping than when going from the t20 to the "tier 1" grouping. The OP defines the tier 1 as the top 100, although typically the first tier is taken as the t50.

thegor1987
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby thegor1987 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:14 am

androstan wrote:
thegor1987 wrote:I'm still trying to figure out what the thread title is supposed to mean


Is there a bigger drop off when going from the t14 grouping to the t20 grouping than when going from the t20 to the "tier 1" grouping. The OP defines the tier 1 as the top 100, although typically the first tier is taken as the t50.


Ok, then it depends on region of the top 100 and how much you are paying. 45k tuition in a saturated market is a big drop off from T20 as opposed too paying in state in good market for a T50 or T100

After T20, the region and price is huge factor in quality of legal education.

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Veyron
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Veyron » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:26 am

androstan wrote:Is it possible that GULC/GW have slightly lower NLJ250 numbers because those students self-select more into gov/PI due to the DC location?


Not as possible as it is that you are engaging in wishful thinking. The actual # of kids who "choose" to go into PI (as oppose to who end up there b/c can't get biglaw) varies little from school to school. Biglaw has a way of attracting those who can get it. Consider the 2L SA a road to hell paved with good intentions "Oh, I'll just do it over the summer for money to pay down my loans so I can work the job I want after graduation" the PI inclined kid thinks, as he signs up for OCI. He might as well be saying, "one line of coke won't make me an addict."

Thus do even hippies come to serve the true public interest - American capitalism.

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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby lisjjen » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:48 am

Veyron wrote:TBF, I was also shocked when I discovered how SLS gets shat on out here. Boalt and UCLA are just generally doing abysmally because CA firms are crumbling into the ground along with the rest of the state.


:cry: & :roll:

If it made sense, there isn't a single market in the world that I would rather work in than SoCal, but until the statehouse stops thinking that Californian industry is invincible, I won't touch that market with a ten foot pole.

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Veyron
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Veyron » Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:59 am

lisjjen wrote:
Veyron wrote:TBF, I was also shocked when I discovered how SLS gets shat on out here. Boalt and UCLA are just generally doing abysmally because CA firms are crumbling into the ground along with the rest of the state.


:cry: & :roll:

If it made sense, there isn't a single market in the world that I would rather work in than SoCal, but until the statehouse stops thinking that Californian industry is invincible, I won't touch that market with a ten foot pole.


So-Cal is essentially what Eden would look like if it was governed by the devil.

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lisjjen
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby lisjjen » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:55 am

Veyron wrote:
So-Cal is essentially what Eden would look like if it was governed by the devil.


In the sense that you don't have to eat healthy food and go to bed on time or... people only care about profit?

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Veyron
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Veyron » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:17 am

lisjjen wrote:
Veyron wrote:
So-Cal is essentially what Eden would look like if it was governed by the devil.


In the sense that you don't have to eat healthy food and go to bed on time or... people only care about profit?


Or that they don't care enough about it?

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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby PDaddy » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:19 am

carboy67 wrote:I kind of agree about the T18 thing. I think every school up to USC seems like a pretty prestigious place to graduate from. and it seems that they all feed pretty well to big law firms in their respective regions. On another note. I see no more appeal in schools like Georgetown and Cornell than UCLA and UT. Really unless you're going to HLS or CCN. It can't make that much of a difference.



I have been promoting the "T18" thing for a few years now. I never understood how the T14 schools are supposedly better than the "other four" (Vandy, UCLA, USC and Texas). So I agree.

Go to Vandy and you feel like you are at a top-10 school, and UCLA has always been as good as the the other 8 or so above it.

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lisjjen
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby lisjjen » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:20 am

Veyron wrote:
lisjjen wrote:
Veyron wrote:
So-Cal is essentially what Eden would look like if it was governed by the devil.


In the sense that you don't have to eat healthy food and go to bed on time or... people only care about profit?


Or that they don't care enough about it?


Also that.

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Veyron
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Veyron » Thu Feb 03, 2011 4:52 am

PDaddy wrote:
carboy67 wrote:I kind of agree about the T18 thing. I think every school up to USC seems like a pretty prestigious place to graduate from. and it seems that they all feed pretty well to big law firms in their respective regions. On another note. I see no more appeal in schools like Georgetown and Cornell than UCLA and UT. Really unless you're going to HLS or CCN. It can't make that much of a difference.



I have been promoting the "T18" thing for a few years now. I never understood how the T14 schools are supposedly better than the "other four" (Vandy, UCLA, USC and Texas). So I agree.

Go to Vandy and you feel like you are at a top-10 school, and UCLA has always been as good as the the other 8 or so above it.


Strange USC trolling ITT. . .

Also, Vandy only places like a T-14 in the south.

If anything I would think that ITE is shrinking the number of elite schools, not expanding it.

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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Anacreon » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:39 am

PDaddy wrote:
carboy67 wrote:I kind of agree about the T18 thing. I think every school up to USC seems like a pretty prestigious place to graduate from. and it seems that they all feed pretty well to big law firms in their respective regions. On another note. I see no more appeal in schools like Georgetown and Cornell than UCLA and UT. Really unless you're going to HLS or CCN. It can't make that much of a difference.



I have been promoting the "T18" thing for a few years now. I never understood how the T14 schools are supposedly better than the "other four" (Vandy, UCLA, USC and Texas). So I agree.

Go to Vandy and you feel like you are at a top-10 school, and UCLA has always been as good as the the other 8 or so above it.


t-17 1/2 if Wustl ties USC this year?

dk8
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby dk8 » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:57 am

androstan wrote:Is it possible that GULC/GW have slightly lower NLJ250 numbers because those students self-select more into gov/PI due to the DC location?


more likely because GULC has 600+ at OCI.

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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby nigelfrost » Thu Feb 03, 2011 9:58 am

bk1 wrote:Drop from USC to WUSTL is big.

After that, none of the drops are that big or in any sort of order that makes sense.


You are wrong. Besides Duke, USC is the most overrated school in the T20.

Now the drop from GWU to Illinois? Yeah...that's a big drop.

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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Anacreon » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:37 am

nigelfrost wrote:
bk1 wrote:Drop from USC to WUSTL is big.

After that, none of the drops are that big or in any sort of order that makes sense.


You are wrong. Besides Duke, USC is the most overrated school in the T20.

Now the drop from GWU to Illinois? Yeah...that's a big drop.


This seems to make sense but go against most TLS wisdom.

Would you also say the drop from Wustl to Illinois is significant?

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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Blindmelon » Thu Feb 03, 2011 11:51 am

thegor1987 wrote:After T20, the region and price is huge factor in quality of legal education.


After T10 you mean. T14 is a little overblown ITE. I wouldn't take GULC over UCLA for CA, or Cornell over UT for Texas.

nigelfrost wrote:You are wrong. Besides Duke, USC is the most overrated school in the T20.

Now the drop from GWU to Illinois? Yeah...that's a big drop.
[/quote][/quote]

Rancid GW trolling - GW/UIUC are peers.




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