Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one? Forum

[Grizz]

Rad Law, I'm not sure why you're so angry when where I attend school won't affect you.

The reason I am asking the UNC question is because I have several options throughout the top 50 and I am trying to figure out which school would meet my personal goals. I am also wait listed at two places within the top 20 and I'm trying to decide if I should stay on and have a slight chance of getting in at sticker, versus taking UNC at 17k per year.

If you're cool with working small-midsize firm in NC, or working NC local govt., go to UNC. To be frank, not even this is guaranteed. People do leave UNC for more prestigious schools, then want to come back, plus there's competition from Wake, plus NC is a small market. You might be able to swing something in one of the surrounding states if you have a connection.

If you end up unemployed or underemployed, you won't have a ton of debt, which is good, but it will still be fairly substantial. Overall, it's an acceptable risk. I'd go to UNC for in-state.

edit: I'd also not pay for the T20, in all likelihood. Too expensive for limited return.

[Grizz]

Rad law and others, do any of you know if there is an up-to-date version of this post: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=108528, which combines the NLJ250 rankings with data on federal clerkships? IMO, this combination offers a much better overall view of schools' placement abilities than does the NLJ250 by itself. In fact, if someone doesn't know much about law schools, they would be extremely confused by the NLJ 250 since, e.g., Yale is ranked 18th. Also, should the 2010 rankings be available approximately the same time this year as they were last year (late Feb.)? TIA!

There's not, but the proportions of clerkships probably haven't changed much. That's still a fairly good offhand guide.

[DeeCee]

Rad Law, I'm not sure why you're so angry when where I attend school won't affect you.

The reason I am asking the UNC question is because I have several options throughout the top 50 and I am trying to figure out which school would meet my personal goals. I am also wait listed at two places within the top 20 and I'm trying to decide if I should stay on and have a slight chance of getting in at sticker, versus taking UNC at 17k per year.

If you're cool with working small-midsize firm in NC, or working NC local govt., go to UNC. To be frank, not even this is guaranteed. People do leave UNC for more prestigious schools, then want to come back, plus there's competition from Wake, plus NC is a small market. You might be able to swing something in one of the surrounding states if you have a connection.

If you end up unemployed or underemployed, you won't have a ton of debt, which is good, but it will still be fairly substantial. Overall, it's an acceptable risk. I'd go to UNC for in-state.

edit: I'd also not pay for the T20, in all likelihood. Too expensive for limited return.

Thank you for your opinions. I feel like UNC at 17k versus GW or UVA at sticker (the schools that WL me, if I'll ever get off the WL) is such a tough decision.

[Ialdabaoth]

Rad law and others, do any of you know if there is an up-to-date version of this post: http://www.top-law-schools.com/forums/v ... 1&t=108528, which combines the NLJ250 rankings with data on federal clerkships? IMO, this combination offers a much better overall view of schools' placement abilities than does the NLJ250 by itself. In fact, if someone doesn't know much about law schools, they would be extremely confused by the NLJ 250 since, e.g., Yale is ranked 18th. Also, should the 2010 rankings be available approximately the same time this year as they were last year (late Feb.)? TIA!

There's not, but the proportions of clerkships probably haven't changed much. That's still a fairly good offhand guide.

Oh okay, thanks. I wasn't sure how much these fluctuated annually. I just thought they might some because the couple that I've looked at (NYU and Berk) were 3-4% better in 2009 than in 2008 (snotrocket's chart). However, I realize that's still not a huge change.

[paulinaporizkova]

Rad Law, I'm not sure why you're so angry when where I attend school won't affect you.

The reason I am asking the UNC question is because I have several options throughout the top 50 and I am trying to figure out which school would meet my personal goals. I am also wait listed at two places within the top 20 and I'm trying to decide if I should stay on and have a slight chance of getting in at sticker, versus taking UNC at 17k per year.

If you're cool with working small-midsize firm in NC, or working NC local govt., go to UNC. To be frank, not even this is guaranteed. People do leave UNC for more prestigious schools, then want to come back, plus there's competition from Wake, plus NC is a small market. You might be able to swing something in one of the surrounding states if you have a connection.

If you end up unemployed or underemployed, you won't have a ton of debt, which is good, but it will still be fairly substantial. Overall, it's an acceptable risk. I'd go to UNC for in-state.

edit: I'd also not pay for the T20, in all likelihood. Too expensive for limited return.

Thank you for your opinions. I feel like UNC at 17k versus GW or UVA at sticker (the schools that WL me, if I'll ever get off the WL) is such a tough decision.

I think UNC with big $$$ vs UVA with no money is legit, but GW? i would be wary about paying for that at sticker and would still choose UNC if i got into GW

[Grizz]

Rad Law, I'm not sure why you're so angry when where I attend school won't affect you.

The reason I am asking the UNC question is because I have several options throughout the top 50 and I am trying to figure out which school would meet my personal goals. I am also wait listed at two places within the top 20 and I'm trying to decide if I should stay on and have a slight chance of getting in at sticker, versus taking UNC at 17k per year.

If you're cool with working small-midsize firm in NC, or working NC local govt., go to UNC. To be frank, not even this is guaranteed. People do leave UNC for more prestigious schools, then want to come back, plus there's competition from Wake, plus NC is a small market. You might be able to swing something in one of the surrounding states if you have a connection.

If you end up unemployed or underemployed, you won't have a ton of debt, which is good, but it will still be fairly substantial. Overall, it's an acceptable risk. I'd go to UNC for in-state.

edit: I'd also not pay for the T20, in all likelihood. Too expensive for limited return.

Thank you for your opinions. I feel like UNC at 17k versus GW or UVA at sticker (the schools that WL me, if I'll ever get off the WL) is such a tough decision.

GW I would not pay sticker for, for sure. If UVA lets you off, that's a tougher decision, but speaking as a former UVA WL person, they fill up so much of the class with ED it's unlikely.

[Informative]

DeeCee, I usually think that the T14, Vandy, Texas, USC/UCLA, BC/BU, Fordham and GW are the only schools worth spending a hefty price tag to attend, and even then you want to keep your debt down, especially at the latter four. However, UNC at a cost of only 17k per year is a very good deal, especially considering you won't be adding on much for living due to the CoL in North Carolina. As long as you aren't interested in BigLaw, it is a very good option.

If you want BigLaw, I would suggest going to one of the aforementioned schools, as consistently they have the top placement stats with the big firms.

[paulinaporizkova]

For this purposes of this thread I'm going to define tier-one as top-100 schools (USNWR).

Feel free to interpret "difference" however you want, and what it applies to. Just explain what you mean and your reasoning in the post.

Consensus seems to be that t14 is the only group of schools that stand out. I'm wondering if that could be expanded. The schools in the top 20 seem to have been there for awhile now (with GWU dropping 8 spots two years ago and then reclaiming their t20 spot).

Anacreon, what are you trying to achieve by starting all these threads about prestige and top this/top that? You can read the rankings yourself. Everyone else can read the rankings themselves. Problem solved let's move on with our day.

[DeeCee]

GW I would not pay sticker for, for sure. If UVA lets you off, that's a tougher decision, but speaking as a former UVA WL person, they fill up so much of the class with ED it's unlikely.

I don't count on getting off the WL at UVA. I really regret not doing ED, I think I could have had a shot if I would've not been so cautious about money.

However, I feel with my grad school debt (20k when I'm done) + full UVA tuition could be suicide for someone who wants government/PI, or possibly mid-law, if that exists anymore. I know for sure I do not want BigLaw, I'm just not the type of person who wants to live for the firm. I do understand you have to pay your dues in the beginning, but I wouldn't be OK with that lifestyle after getting experience.

[Grizz]

GW I would not pay sticker for, for sure. If UVA lets you off, that's a tougher decision, but speaking as a former UVA WL person, they fill up so much of the class with ED it's unlikely.

I don't count on getting off the WL. I really regret not doing ED, I think I could have had a shot if I would've not been so cautious about money.

However, I feel with my grad school debt (20k when I'm done) + full UVA tuition could be suicide for someone who wants government/PI, or possibly mid-law, if that exists anymore. I know for sure I do not want BigLaw, I'm just not the type of person who wants to live for the firm. I do understand you have to pay your dues in the beginning, but I wouldn't be OK with that lifestyle after getting experience.

UVA would give you the best shot for govt/PI, and I think they have a pretty good LRAP. It's a high risk, high reward (easy loan forgiveness). Midsize firms exist, but not a ton of them recruit 2Ls. UNC is a decent option for local govt.

[DeeCee]

GW I would not pay sticker for, for sure. If UVA lets you off, that's a tougher decision, but speaking as a former UVA WL person, they fill up so much of the class with ED it's unlikely.

I don't count on getting off the WL. I really regret not doing ED, I think I could have had a shot if I would've not been so cautious about money.

However, I feel with my grad school debt (20k when I'm done) + full UVA tuition could be suicide for someone who wants government/PI, or possibly mid-law, if that exists anymore. I know for sure I do not want BigLaw, I'm just not the type of person who wants to live for the firm. I do understand you have to pay your dues in the beginning, but I wouldn't be OK with that lifestyle after getting experience.

UVA would give you the best shot for govt/PI, and I think they have a pretty good LRAP. It's a high risk, high reward (easy loan forgiveness). Midsize firms exist, but not a ton of them recruit 2Ls. UNC is a decent option for local govt.

Then I'll definitely stay on the UVA wait list. I've been thinking about pulling out of GW just because their sticker tuition + COL is horrendous. Thanks again for everyone's replies, it's really helping me to gain perspective.

[Grizz]

Then I'll definitely stay on the UVA wait list. I've been thinking about pulling out of GW just because their sticker tuition + COL is horrendous. Thanks again for everyone's replies, it's really helping me to gain perspective.

There's really no disadvantage to staying on the WL, so you might as well stay?

[Blindmelon]

Radlaw is right - all these schools are regional depending on grades, work experience, diversity.

To make it easy - E.g., if you're top 5% at BC and have ties to CA, it should be no problem securing a firm job in LA; if you're top 5% at GW, you should be able to land something in Boston with ties.
The difference is where the top 1/3rd at GW/BC go. Top 1/3rd at BC (even ITE) has not a bad shot at a firm in Boston; top 1/3rd at GW would have a shot at a DC firm . . .
BUT, top 1/3rd at BC likely won't land anything in DC, and top 1/3rd at GW likely won't land anything in Boston (of course there are caveats to this).

School specific . . .
UNC: if you want to work in NC, UNC > GW, Fordham, BC/U. If can get into Vand or higher excluding UCLA, strongly consider the other school (taking $ into account).

GW/WUSTL: just because they're ranked w/in the T20 means 0. WUSTL is not better than UIUC (if Chicago, UIUC), and GW is not better than BC (e.g., if DC GW, if Boston, BC).

Just don't do what some of my friends did and take BU over UGA for Georgia b/c BU is ranked higher.

[DeeCee]

Then I'll definitely stay on the UVA wait list. I've been thinking about pulling out of GW just because their sticker tuition + COL is horrendous. Thanks again for everyone's replies, it's really helping me to gain perspective.

There's really no disadvantage to staying on the WL, so you might as well stay?

True.

[DeeCee]

Radlaw is right - all these schools are regional depending on grades, work experience, diversity.

To make it easy - E.g., if you're top 5% at BC and have ties to CA, it should be no problem securing a firm job in LA; if you're top 5% at GW, you should be able to land something in Boston with ties.
The difference is where the top 1/3rd at GW/BC go. Top 1/3rd at BC (even ITE) has not a bad shot at a firm in Boston; top 1/3rd at GW would have a shot at a DC firm . . .
BUT, top 1/3rd at BC likely won't land anything in DC, and top 1/3rd at GW likely won't land anything in Boston (of course there are caveats to this).

School specific . . .
UNC: if you want to work in NC, UNC > GW, Fordham, BC/U. If can get into Vand or higher excluding UCLA, strongly consider the other school (taking $ into account).

GW/WUSTL: just because they're ranked w/in the T20 means 0. WUSTL is not better than UIUC (if Chicago, UIUC), and GW is not better than BC (e.g., if DC GW, if Boston, BC).

Just don't do what some of my friends did and take BU over UGA for Georgia b/c BU is ranked higher.

Yeah GW sounds increasingly iffy to me at sticker. But UVA at any price could get me wherever I wanted to be. Unless I was below median.

[paulinaporizkova]

Radlaw is right - all these schools are regional depending on grades, work experience, diversity.

To make it easy - E.g., if you're top 5% at BC and have ties to CA, it should be no problem securing a firm job in LA; if you're top 5% at GW, you should be able to land something in Boston with ties.
The difference is where the top 1/3rd at GW/BC go. Top 1/3rd at BC (even ITE) has not a bad shot at a firm in Boston; top 1/3rd at GW would have a shot at a DC firm . . .
BUT, top 1/3rd at BC likely won't land anything in DC, and top 1/3rd at GW likely won't land anything in Boston (of course there are caveats to this).

School specific . . .
UNC: if you want to work in NC, UNC > GW, Fordham, BC/U. If can get into Vand or higher excluding UCLA, strongly consider the other school (taking $ into account).

GW/WUSTL: just because they're ranked w/in the T20 means 0. WUSTL is not better than UIUC (if Chicago, UIUC), and GW is not better than BC (e.g., if DC GW, if Boston, BC).

Just don't do what some of my friends did and take BU over UGA for Georgia b/c BU is ranked higher.

Yeah GW sounds increasingly iffy to me at sticker. But UVA at any price could get me wherever I wanted to be. Unless I was below median.

GW could probably get you wherever you wanted to be....if you were top 5%

[DeeCee]

Radlaw is right - all these schools are regional depending on grades, work experience, diversity.

To make it easy - E.g., if you're top 5% at BC and have ties to CA, it should be no problem securing a firm job in LA; if you're top 5% at GW, you should be able to land something in Boston with ties.
The difference is where the top 1/3rd at GW/BC go. Top 1/3rd at BC (even ITE) has not a bad shot at a firm in Boston; top 1/3rd at GW would have a shot at a DC firm . . .
BUT, top 1/3rd at BC likely won't land anything in DC, and top 1/3rd at GW likely won't land anything in Boston (of course there are caveats to this).

School specific . . .
UNC: if you want to work in NC, UNC > GW, Fordham, BC/U. If can get into Vand or higher excluding UCLA, strongly consider the other school (taking $ into account).

GW/WUSTL: just because they're ranked w/in the T20 means 0. WUSTL is not better than UIUC (if Chicago, UIUC), and GW is not better than BC (e.g., if DC GW, if Boston, BC).

Just don't do what some of my friends did and take BU over UGA for Georgia b/c BU is ranked higher.

Yeah GW sounds increasingly iffy to me at sticker. But UVA at any price could get me wherever I wanted to be. Unless I was below median.

GW could probably get you wherever you wanted to be....if you were top 5%

Yeah, but there's a 95% chance that won't happen though I'd like to be optimistic.

[Informative]

Radlaw is right - all these schools are regional depending on grades, work experience, diversity.

To make it easy - E.g., if you're top 5% at BC and have ties to CA, it should be no problem securing a firm job in LA; if you're top 5% at GW, you should be able to land something in Boston with ties.
The difference is where the top 1/3rd at GW/BC go. Top 1/3rd at BC (even ITE) has not a bad shot at a firm in Boston; top 1/3rd at GW would have a shot at a DC firm . . .
BUT, top 1/3rd at BC likely won't land anything in DC, and top 1/3rd at GW likely won't land anything in Boston (of course there are caveats to this).

School specific . . .
UNC: if you want to work in NC, UNC > GW, Fordham, BC/U. If can get into Vand or higher excluding UCLA, strongly consider the other school (taking $ into account).

GW/WUSTL: just because they're ranked w/in the T20 means 0. WUSTL is not better than UIUC (if Chicago, UIUC), and GW is not better than BC (e.g., if DC GW, if Boston, BC).

Just don't do what some of my friends did and take BU over UGA for Georgia b/c BU is ranked higher.

Yeah GW sounds increasingly iffy to me at sticker. But UVA at any price could get me wherever I wanted to be. Unless I was below median.

GW could probably get you wherever you wanted to be....if you were top 5%

Good luck with that one.....

[paulinaporizkova]

Radlaw is right - all these schools are regional depending on grades, work experience, diversity.

To make it easy - E.g., if you're top 5% at BC and have ties to CA, it should be no problem securing a firm job in LA; if you're top 5% at GW, you should be able to land something in Boston with ties.
The difference is where the top 1/3rd at GW/BC go. Top 1/3rd at BC (even ITE) has not a bad shot at a firm in Boston; top 1/3rd at GW would have a shot at a DC firm . . .
BUT, top 1/3rd at BC likely won't land anything in DC, and top 1/3rd at GW likely won't land anything in Boston (of course there are caveats to this).

School specific . . .
UNC: if you want to work in NC, UNC > GW, Fordham, BC/U. If can get into Vand or higher excluding UCLA, strongly consider the other school (taking $ into account).

GW/WUSTL: just because they're ranked w/in the T20 means 0. WUSTL is not better than UIUC (if Chicago, UIUC), and GW is not better than BC (e.g., if DC GW, if Boston, BC).

Just don't do what some of my friends did and take BU over UGA for Georgia b/c BU is ranked higher.

Yeah GW sounds increasingly iffy to me at sticker. But UVA at any price could get me wherever I wanted to be. Unless I was below median.

GW could probably get you wherever you wanted to be....if you were top 5%

Yeah, but there's a 95% chance that won't happen though I'd like to be optimistic.

that's why it's funny. *laughs at your expense*

no really, congrats on the UNC scholly. go to UNC and make big dollaz defending big tobacco

[DeeCee]

GW could probably get you wherever you wanted to be....if you were top 5%

Yeah, but there's a 95% chance that won't happen though I'd like to be optimistic.

that's why it's funny. *laughs at your expense*

no really, congrats on the UNC scholly. go to UNC and make big dollaz defending big tobacco

Not really sure how the joke was ever on me as I just said there is an overwhelming possibility of not being in the top 5%, hence the reason I'd get off the GW wait list. Whatever though.

And no one is saying I'm trying to make big money here. I'm sure your selection of schools to attend in the fall is lovely (looked at your profile). But really, you don't have to be rude because someone is making a different life decision than you.

[jarofsoup]

GW could probably get you wherever you wanted to be....if you were top 5%

Yeah, but there's a 95% chance that won't happen though I'd like to be optimistic.

that's why it's funny. *laughs at your expense*

no really, congrats on the UNC scholly. go to UNC and make big dollaz defending big tobacco

Not really sure how the joke was ever on me as I just said there is an overwhelming possibility of not being in the top 5%, hence the reason I'd get off the GW wait list. Whatever though.

And no one is saying I'm trying to make big money here. I'm sure your selection of schools to attend in the fall is lovely (looked at your profile). But really, you don't have to be rude because someone is making a different life decision than you.

I toured GW it is somewhere to check out if you havent already. I was really impressed by their school.

[DeeCee]

I toured GW it is somewhere to check out if you havent already. I was really impressed by their school.

Maybe I'll shoot up there, I've got some other nearby schools that would be worth checking out as well.

[Informative]

^ Did you visit many others? USC, UCLA, UT, Vandy, and BC are all peer schools with nicer law school facilities, especially when you consider how many students are supposed to fit in the GWU building (not including their night program). Not to mention GULC which is in DC (it is not on the UG campus).

[Marionberry]

^ Did you visit many others? USC, UCLA, UT, Vandy, and BC are all peer schools with nicer law school facilities, especially when you consider how many students are supposed to fit in the GWU building (not including their night program). Not to mention GULC which is in DC (it is not on the UG campus).

Have you ever visit the UT Law facilities? They're pretty unimpressive.

[paulinaporizkova]

GW could probably get you wherever you wanted to be....if you were top 5%

Yeah, but there's a 95% chance that won't happen though I'd like to be optimistic.

that's why it's funny. *laughs at your expense*

no really, congrats on the UNC scholly. go to UNC and make big dollaz defending big tobacco

Not really sure how the joke was ever on me as I just said there is an overwhelming possibility of not being in the top 5%, hence the reason I'd get off the GW wait list. Whatever though.

And no one is saying I'm trying to make big money here. I'm sure your selection of schools to attend in the fall is lovely (looked at your profile). But really, you don't have to be rude because someone is making a different life decision than you.

eek i'm not being rude - just sarcastic. i'm actually going through EXACTLY the same dilemma - UVA or big $$$ at UMN. and it's been a really hard decision for me. just when i start thinking i made the right choice all the old doubts start coming back. i feel you, don't get me wrong.