Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

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Anacreon
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Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Anacreon » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:26 pm

For this purposes of this thread I'm going to define tier-one as top-100 schools (USNWR).

Feel free to interpret "difference" however you want, and what it applies to. Just explain what you mean and your reasoning in the post.

Consensus seems to be that t14 is the only group of schools that stand out. I'm wondering if that could be expanded. The schools in the top 20 seem to have been there for awhile now (with GWU dropping 8 spots two years ago and then reclaiming their t20 spot).
Last edited by Anacreon on Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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bk1
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby bk1 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:27 pm

What is the point of this?

Anacreon
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Anacreon » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:29 pm

bk1 wrote:What is the point of this?


Watching TLSers scuffle is amusing.

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Grizz
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Grizz » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:30 pm

T18 bro

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bk1
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby bk1 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:31 pm

Drop from USC to WUSTL is big.

After that, none of the drops are that big or in any sort of order that makes sense.

carboy67
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby carboy67 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:34 pm

I kind of agree about the T18 thing. I think every school up to USC seems like a pretty prestigious place to graduate from. and it seems that they all feed pretty well to big law firms in their respective regions. On another note. I see no more appeal in schools like Georgetown and Cornell than UCLA and UT. Really unless you're going to HLS or CCN. It can't make that much of a difference.

Anacreon
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Anacreon » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:35 pm

bk1 wrote:Drop from USC to WUSTL is big.

After that, none of the drops are that big or in any sort of order that makes sense.


How come? I'm considering applying to WUSTL, but also other t25 schools.

Isn't that only thing USC has going for it, that WUSTL doesn't, is a good home market with a similarly ranked school?

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bk1
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby bk1 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:39 pm

Anacreon wrote:How come? I'm considering applying to WUSTL, but also other t25 schools.

Isn't that only thing USC has going for it, that WUSTL doesn't, is a good home market with a similarly ranked school?


Nothing wrong with WUSTL, it's just a lot closer in placement power to schools in the T20-30 than it does to the worst of the T18 (USC).

Only thing? That's a pretty big thing. USC competes with mostly just UCLA in a decently sized market where the next best school is crappy (Loyola).

WUSTL doesn't have a large home market, unless you count Chicago, which then means it competes with two to three much better schools (UChi/NU, Michigan to a certain extent) and a lot of other T20-30's (Illinois/Notre Dame which are roughly equivalent to WUSTL, and even the other state schools in the midwest (IUB/Wisconsin/OSU). Not to mention that the Chicago legal market took a huge hit and is struggling to recover.

Anacreon
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Anacreon » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:41 pm

bk1 wrote:
Anacreon wrote:How come? I'm considering applying to WUSTL, but also other t25 schools.

Isn't that only thing USC has going for it, that WUSTL doesn't, is a good home market with a similarly ranked school?


Nothing wrong with WUSTL, it's just a lot closer in placement power to schools in the T20-30 than it does to the worst of the T18 (USC).

Only thing? That's a pretty big thing. USC competes with mostly just UCLA in a decently sized market where the next best school is crappy (Loyola).

WUSTL doesn't have a large home market, unless you count Chicago, which then means it competes with two to three much better schools (UChi/NU, Michigan to a certain extent) and a lot of other T20-30's (Illinois/Notre Dame which are roughly equivalent to WUSTL, and even the other state schools in the midwest (IUB/Wisconsin/OSU). Not to mention that the Chicago legal market took a huge hit and is struggling to recover.


Perhaps I'm mistaken but from what I gather WUSTL has some coastal placement power for the top 10%.

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Marionberry
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Marionberry » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:42 pm

I'm kind of a tool.
Last edited by Marionberry on Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Anacreon
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Anacreon » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:44 pm

Marionberry wrote:This thread is worthless. carry on.


Thanks for the bump at least.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby CanadianWolf » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:46 pm

Many distinguish the Top 14 USNews ranked law schools from the other law schools on the basis of recruiting & placement. Law graduates of the Top 14 law schools have an easier time getting recruited & placed in major legal markets nationally, while the remaining law schools are recruited & place regionally for the most part.

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Marionberry
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Marionberry » Tue Feb 01, 2011 6:53 pm

Anacreon wrote:
Marionberry wrote:This thread is worthless. carry on.


Thanks for the bump at least.


It would maybe be slightly less worthless if the question was a meaningful one about placement statistics or ability. Canadianwolf summed it up pretty good, and I would say that if you look at the NLJ250 placement numbers for the Class 0f 2009 you would see that there is a significant drop off in biglaw placement after the T14 and Vandy. However, those numbers change and NLJ250 placements is only a very good metric if you're solely interested in biglaw. It still speaks to a school's overall placement ability, but becomes less helpful if you're talking about PI or government work.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:25 pm

Marionberry wrote:
Anacreon wrote:
Marionberry wrote:This thread is worthless. carry on.


Thanks for the bump at least.


It would maybe be slightly less worthless if the question was a meaningful one about placement statistics or ability. Canadianwolf summed it up pretty good, and I would say that if you look at the NLJ250 placement numbers for the Class 0f 2009 you would see that there is a significant drop off in biglaw placement after the T14 and Vandy. However, those numbers change and NLJ250 placements is only a very good metric if you're solely interested in biglaw. It still speaks to a school's overall placement ability, but becomes less helpful if you're talking about PI or government work.


So do you think there is any other meaningful cutoff for placement in large PI orgs and/or government? For instance, I'm interested in big PI environmental work (and yes, I know these jobs are insanely competitive), so generally do you all think attending UCLA, UT, Vandy, USC, WashU, or GWU would handicap an applicant for competitive PI and government positions?

Note: I've looked at staff profiles for some of the orgs that interest me most, but here I'm looking for slightly more general opinions, since current employee lists aren't totally indicative of more general trends. TIA.

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Marionberry
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Marionberry » Tue Feb 01, 2011 7:36 pm

Ialdabaoth wrote:So do you think there is any other meaningful cutoff for placement in large PI orgs and/or government? For instance, I'm interested in big PI environmental work (and yes, I know these jobs are insanely competitive), so generally do you all think attending UCLA, UT, Vandy, USC, WashU, or GWU would handicap an applicant for competitive PI and government positions?

Note: I've looked at staff profiles for some of the orgs that interest me most, but here I'm looking for slightly more general opinions, since current employee lists aren't totally indicative of more general trends. TIA.


So this is kind of what I was getting at with my original "this thread is worthless" comment. I don't have any good idea of whether or not there is a meaningful cutoff at some point for these jobs, and probably no one else who is surfing the "choosing a law school" forum does either. OLs asking other OLs about stuff like this yields collective ignorance and misconceptions. Your best bet would be, like you already have, to look at profiles of these organizations and any reliable statistics you can find about PI/government placement. But, if you want my uninformed and probably innacurate opinion, I would say that placement for PI/government follows the private practice placement pretty closely. T14 will have national reach, some more than others, and after that some schools place really well though their placement is pretty much regionally limited.

Also, the general TLS wisdom is that if you want environmental law you will probably end up helping people destroy the earth.

Edit:Sorry, I realize I'm coming across as kind of dickish and you actually asked your question in a pretty reasonable way, and I don't blame you for wanting some kind of solid info on this stuff. I wish I could provide it, and I really wish I knew more about job prospects and what I'm gonna be doing in 4 years too. So I guess the less dickish way to answer your question is that I don't really know, and you should take what you read on here with a grain of salt. Anything you can find with real data is probably your best bet.

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bk1
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby bk1 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:08 pm

Anacreon wrote:Perhaps I'm mistaken but from what I gather WUSTL has some coastal placement power for the top 10%.


By coastal placement power do you mean NYC?

I mean WUSTL isn't an awful school and top 10% probably has a shot at NYC biglaw and maybe biglaw in your own home market if you can slang some interviews through mass-mailing, but that is true of a lot of schools. Top 10% is a big deal, but 1L's only ever have a 10% chance of ending up there so don't bank on something as unlikely as that.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:10 pm

Marionberry wrote:
Ialdabaoth wrote:So do you think there is any other meaningful cutoff for placement in large PI orgs and/or government? For instance, I'm interested in big PI environmental work (and yes, I know these jobs are insanely competitive), so generally do you all think attending UCLA, UT, Vandy, USC, WashU, or GWU would handicap an applicant for competitive PI and government positions?

Note: I've looked at staff profiles for some of the orgs that interest me most, but here I'm looking for slightly more general opinions, since current employee lists aren't totally indicative of more general trends. TIA.


So this is kind of what I was getting at with my original "this thread is worthless" comment. I don't have any good idea of whether or not there is a meaningful cutoff at some point for these jobs, and probably no one else who is surfing the "choosing a law school" forum does either. OLs asking other OLs about stuff like this yields collective ignorance and misconceptions. Your best bet would be, like you already have, to look at profiles of these organizations and any reliable statistics you can find about PI/government placement. But, if you want my uninformed and probably innacurate opinion, I would say that placement for PI/government follows the private practice placement pretty closely. T14 will have national reach, some more than others, and after that some schools place really well though their placement is pretty much regionally limited.

Also, the general TLS wisdom is that if you want environmental law you will probably end up helping people destroy the earth.

Edit:Sorry, I realize I'm coming across as kind of dickish and you actually asked your question in a pretty reasonable way, and I don't blame you for wanting some kind of solid info on this stuff. I wish I could provide it, and I really wish I knew more about job prospects and what I'm gonna be doing in 4 years too. So I guess the less dickish way to answer your question is that I don't really know, and you should take what you read on here with a grain of salt. Anything you can find with real data is probably your best bet.


Thanks, Marionberry. You didn't come across as dickish at all, haha. You're totally right about the lack of data for PI placement, especially anything on the level of NLJ250 data. Also, from the research I've done for my interests, you seem to be right about PI following T14/BigLaw and the others being more regional. For instance, one smaller organization I've looked at a lot is in the SE and is full of almost as many UNC grads as UVA people.

And last, you're right in that if I got a BigLaw job in an environmental practice group, I would almost certainly be working on "the other side." Although I think some greens blow this out of proportion, there's some truth to it, and that's why I'm most interested in PI environmental (like Earthjustice, NRDC, EDF, etc.). I'm really very moderate though and see value in law firm environmental work like brownfields redevelopment and some other areas.

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bk1
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby bk1 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 8:15 pm

I'll add my two cents that, from TLSers who are in law school and have gone through OCI, the consensus seems to be that prestigious and hard to get PI jobs are more competitive than biglaw, making school prestige even more important.

Would a T15-30 school handicap you? Only in the sense that you would be seen as behind more prestigious schools.

ETA: I would also that I wouldn't go to law school if your only desire would be to practice environmental law. Considering how tough/rare it is, I would make sure you are okay with falling short of that dream and settling with something else.

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Ialdabaoth
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Ialdabaoth » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:29 pm

bk1 wrote:I'll add my two cents that, from TLSers who are in law school and have gone through OCI, the consensus seems to be that prestigious and hard to get PI jobs are more competitive than biglaw, making school prestige even more important.

Would a T15-30 school handicap you? Only in the sense that you would be seen as behind more prestigious schools.

ETA: I would also that I wouldn't go to law school if your only desire would be to practice environmental law. Considering how tough/rare it is, I would make sure you are okay with falling short of that dream and settling with something else.


Thanks for the advice, bk1. I definitely understand the competition for these limited jobs. My goal is to attend the best school I can get into and then, once there, get as much relevant experience as possible through clinics, externships, etc. This type of experience makes a significant difference with environmental PI orgs (at least the ones I've researched anyways). Then, if I still can't get this type of job after graduation, I would be okay with working in another area, gaining experience, and then moving laterally into a more desirable (for me) position after a few years. I'm trying to be as realistic and pragmatic about this as possible and understand the difficulty of the career path.

ETA: Also, I'm trying to proactive in determining which schools have the best LRAPs for my situation, and the main reason I'm considering the slightly lower-ranked schools is because I might have a chance at money from some.

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Grizz
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Grizz » Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:57 pm

This whole T14 are national, everything else is regional thing is pretty dumb. Everything is regional. The legs of your degree depend on 1) The school's name brand recognition in the market you're targeting, 2) your grades, 3) and your ties to the market you want.

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Veyron
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:01 pm

rad law wrote:This whole T14 are national, everything else is regional thing is pretty dumb. Everything is regional. The legs of your degree depend on 1) The school's name brand recognition in the market you're targeting, 2) your grades, 3) and your ties to the market you want.


This is not true in my experience. The T-10 (or 14) depending on the firm are considered elite as a group even in markets 1000 miles from the nearest one (I've spoken with people who know hiring in this regard). Everything else is regional. The regions in which UCLA, Texas, and Vandy are considered good are pretty large but the cutoffs for them won't be the same as even the cutoff for GULC (or #10, again depending) outside of those regions or in NYC for that matter.

What you will often find is that distinctions among the T-14 tend to collapse in some markets far removed from the proximity of any of those schools so that hiring cutoffs will look:

HY(S - Western U.S.) > C-G

However, in proximity does matter even for the T-14 (except for H and Y) so that in (whatever remains of) Philly biglaw for example you might see:

HY > P(S?) > CCN > MV > DCNGB

I hope that these facts are helpful. You may now return to speculation.
Last edited by Veyron on Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Grizz
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Grizz » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:11 pm

Veyron wrote:
rad law wrote:This whole T14 are national, everything else is regional thing is pretty dumb. Everything is regional. The legs of your degree depend on 1) The school's name brand recognition in the market you're targeting, 2) your grades, 3) and your ties to the market you want.


This is not true in my experience. The T-10 (or 14) depending on the firm are considered elite as a group even in markets 1000 miles from the nearest one (I've spoken with people who know hiring in this regard). Everything else is regional. The regions in which UCLA, Texas, and Vandy are considered good are pretty large but the cutoffs for them won't be the same as even the cutoff for GULC (or #10, again depending) outside of those regions or in NYC for that matter.

What you will often find is that distinctions among the T-14 tend to collapse in some markets far removed from the proximity of any of those schools so that hiring cutoffs will look:

HY(S - Western U.S.) > C-G

However, in proximity does matter even for the T-14 (except for H and Y) so that in (whatever remains of) Philly biglaw for example you might see:

HY > P(S?) > CCN > MV > DCNGB

I hope that these facts are helpful. You may now return to speculation.


One of our statements doesn't have to be false, actually. They can both be true.

edit: and I agree with you pretty much.

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Veyron
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby Veyron » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:13 pm

[/quote]One of our statements doesn't have to be false, actually. They can both be true.[/quote]

Looks like I need to retake the LSAT.

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lisjjen
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby lisjjen » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:41 pm

Veyron wrote:Looks like I need to retake the LSAT.


You guys really aren't disagreeing. You commented on the utility of a degree from variously ranked institutions. On the other hand, RadLaw stated a criterion for categorizing the effects of any particular degree. The two are not inherently in conflict.

You gave a length, and he gave a ruler.

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romothesavior
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Re: Bigger difference btwn t14 and t20 or t20 & rest tier-one?

Postby romothesavior » Tue Feb 01, 2011 10:42 pm

rad law wrote:This whole T14 are national, everything else is regional thing is pretty dumb. Everything is regional. The legs of your degree depend on 1) The school's name brand recognition in the market you're targeting, 2) your grades, 3) and your ties to the market you want.

+1




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