Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

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mpj_3050
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby mpj_3050 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:46 pm

Bar passage doesn't equal employment. Most of these type of schools are expensive private schools and under no circumstances should you take anything above 50k and that is really, really pushing it.

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Veyron
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 02, 2011 6:48 pm

Plan2008 wrote:
Veyron wrote:People bag on people who don't get into T"100" law schools for the same reason you won't want a doctor from a Caribbean D.O. school doing surgery on your dad, in a professions where life, death, or freedom is at stake the old "kindergarten" adage "you can achieve anything you can dream", no longer applies, some people just aren't good enough (or rather, didn't choose to work hard enough to cultivate the intelligence necessary to become a lawyer).

That being said, I can completely understand if, as someone who could have gotten into a "better" school you choose to attend one of these schools because of religious or geographic preference. I would probably recommend Liberty or Ave Marie because of their they have often served as feeders to government positions under conservative administrations. Although with Obama being in office, this isn't likely to help much, by the time you graduate, things might be very different.



Here is something that is interesting. ASU (Phoenix) is ranked above 50 by USNWR and in the same city there is a T4 called phoenix u or something (being local they send me flyers). Anyway, 71% of ASu grads pass the bar while 98% of PU grads do. The ASU grads typically have far better GPA/LSAT going in. So which school is better? The up and coming state school or the TTTT.

If you want to get a job right out of school, I'd say ASU. But if you want to be prepared to make money and do good work five years down the road, the answer is not as clear. Having said that, I'd rather cut off my own arm than go to TTTT. There is something to be said for being granted the respect your hard work has earned. IMHO.


Because PSOL works bar prep into the curriculum while ASU does not, I guarantee you that the average ASU grad is making more 5 years out.

Plan2008
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby Plan2008 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:27 pm

Veyron wrote:
Plan2008 wrote:
Veyron wrote:People bag on people who don't get into T"100" law schools for the same reason you won't want a doctor from a Caribbean D.O. school doing surgery on your dad, in a professions where life, death, or freedom is at stake the old "kindergarten" adage "you can achieve anything you can dream", no longer applies, some people just aren't good enough (or rather, didn't choose to work hard enough to cultivate the intelligence necessary to become a lawyer).

That being said, I can completely understand if, as someone who could have gotten into a "better" school you choose to attend one of these schools because of religious or geographic preference. I would probably recommend Liberty or Ave Marie because of their they have often served as feeders to government positions under conservative administrations. Although with Obama being in office, this isn't likely to help much, by the time you graduate, things might be very different.



Here is something that is interesting. ASU (Phoenix) is ranked above 50 by USNWR and in the same city there is a T4 called phoenix u or something (being local they send me flyers). Anyway, 71% of ASu grads pass the bar while 98% of PU grads do. The ASU grads typically have far better GPA/LSAT going in. So which school is better? The up and coming state school or the TTTT.

If you want to get a job right out of school, I'd say ASU. But if you want to be prepared to make money and do good work five years down the road, the answer is not as clear. Having said that, I'd rather cut off my own arm than go to TTTT. There is something to be said for being granted the respect your hard work has earned. IMHO.


Because PSOL works bar prep into the curriculum while ASU does not, I guarantee you that the average ASU grad is making more 5 years out.


Yeah, how can you guarantee it. Did you do a survey? I'd say you are wrong, but I don't know either.

Most the grads from PU, I expect, are professionals who went back to school. Most the ASU grads are green around the edges. The ones that don't get placed will die on the vine and end up not practicing law. That's okay, we need good school teachers too.
Last edited by Plan2008 on Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Grizz
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby Grizz » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:31 pm

Plan2008 wrote:Yeah, how can you guarantee it. Did you do a survey? I'd say you are wrong, but I don't know either.

Most the grads from PU, I expect, are professionals who went back to school. Most the ASU grads are green aroung the edges. The ones that don't get placed will die on the vine and end up not practicing law. That's okay, we need good school teachers too.


Too bad legal education is about PRESTIGE

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BarbellDreams
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby BarbellDreams » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:36 pm

cartercl wrote:
rad law wrote:
cartercl wrote:
rad law wrote:
You don't get it. OP is asking the wrong question.


No, you don't get it. It's not up for you to decide what questions people choose to ask and how they choose to ask them. If it bothers you so much why the hell do you bother responding? Seriously, find something better to do. And I really don't care how many of your TLS lackeys get on this forum and defend you. You're still a douche.


u mad at good advice bro?


You win man. I actually have better things to do with my day.


This entire exchange is amazing.

Bottom Line:

1. TCR is not to go to either.

2. OP is going to go to one of them anyway even after reading up on the market and the terrible chance of landing ANY job from those schools, let alone a good one.

3. cartercl is going to keep telling radlaw that he is a loser and he has better stuff to do with his time than be on TLS while in the process continuing to post on TLS. Irony ensues.

4. To the OP: I procrastinated applying to a job to take a quick glance at T4's that you can get into. I would go to the following over all the schools you mentioned: Dusquene, Capital (they give insane scholarships), CUNY - Queens, FIU, North Carolina Central (Likely cheapest option on the planet for law school), and Dayton. I feel like you have a decent shot to get into all of those and they will provide employment that is at least better than what you're looking at right now (in some cases, like with Dusquene, they will be much better in terms of employment than anything you listed.)

5. *Sigh*. If you ignore everything I posted and say "I only want the 3 schools I posted no matter what", I am going to say don't go to law school. If you are still hell bent on going, I guess go to Mississippi as long as you realize that chances are that you will never leave Miss, never repay your debt and best case scenario 50/50 to land ANY legal job upon graduation.

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johnnyutah
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby johnnyutah » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:49 pm

If OP is extremely religious and is deeply hooked in to some kind of community (hence Liberty/Ave), he might be able to get an awesome job through those contacts.

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Aberzombie1892
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby Aberzombie1892 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 7:52 pm

If these are your ONLY options, and you have to go to law school, MC.

However, examine the logistics as to your return on investment:

(I'm going to use the expression "let's assume" a lot. I apologize in advance)

Let's assume you would make $40,000 out of undergraduate school. This number is reasonable for people that majored in topics that are actually useful. Most, not all, of the other majors would land someone around $25,000 or so. Regardless...

Let's assume that if you had not gone to law school and gotten a job, the next three years would look like this:
Year 1: $40,000 a year
year 2: $44,000 a year ($4,000 raise)
year 3: $48,000 a year ($4,000 raise)
Therefore, you are losing out on $132,000 in income by attending law school. Also, let's assume to attend law school would cost you $160,000 in either debt or cash over three years. As a result, your opportunity cost is $292,000 ($132,000+$160,000). That number is how much law school is costing you.

Let's assume that you receive another $4,000 raise in year 4. So your salary for that year would be $52,000.

Let's now assume that you have gone to law school. Before finding your first job, you are in the hole $292,000 (in terms of lost opportunity and spent cash or debt). Your first job needs to be a certain number above $52,000 for law school to have been a worthwhile investment. At first glance, it may appear that any number above $52,000 would be sufficient. This is not so. The best way to explain this is by the use of an example: let's say during your first year out of law school (year 4), you made $55,000. While it is true you made $3,000 more than if you had not gone to law school ($52,000) for that year (year 4), that $3,000 on knocks your opportunity cost down to $289,000. What this shows is that you are not really receiving a profit from your investment in law school until the difference in your income by attending law school has zeroed out your opportunity cost.

So let's say for the rest of your life, you will be making only $3,000 more by attending law school than you would have made by not attending law school (this would obviously almost never be the case, but I have to use an example). It would take 97.34 years for your investment to break even - that is how long it would take the $3,000 extra per year to pay down the $292,000 opportunity cost. Odds are, you will be deceased by this time (I'm sorry?).

Obviously, you won't know what you would have made had you not attended law school. However, you can look at law schools salaries, salaries available to you without going to law school, and the amount of debt you will need to take to go to law school and make your own calculations and decide whether law school is for you.

hhicks18
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby hhicks18 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:38 pm

You all bring up a lot of interesting points. Especially those of you who have mentioned the money aspect of the equation. I want to add that law is something I have been passionate about my whole life. I recognize that I am taking a risk in going to these schools and that they are not the highest ranked schools, nor are they ideal to go to, especially if it makes getting a job in a struggling market.

However, I am a good networker and to be honest, I am fully content making 50,000 doing something that I love, rather than taking a manager job making 50,000 and not going to law school.

Not everything is driven by money. Obviously, it is nice to have and it is good to set yourself up for success. In may I will have complete my degree and come out of college with no debt at all. Some students incur thousands of dollars of debt, have a marketing degree, and cannot get a job other than an entry level sales job, where they are competing with people who have high-school diplomas.

I understand that my situation is not ideal, but law is what I want to do. And had I scored higher on the LSAT some of the points in this thread would be moot.

The way I see it, I did not do good on a test, yes it is a test that supposedly predicts how well I will do in law school, however, by doing poorly on the test does not mean I will not succeed.

I also did poorly on the ACT, but am graduating from my college with honors, and the ACT is suppose to be an accurate assesment on your ability to do well in college.

Thank you for all of your points, this is truly one of the toughest decisions I will ever make, but I am certain that it is what I should be doing, regardless of the numbers.

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bk1
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:40 pm

BarbellDreams wrote:2. OP is going to go to one of them anyway even after reading up on the market and the terrible chance of landing ANY job from those schools, let alone a good one.


Are you psychic?!

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johnnyutah
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby johnnyutah » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:52 pm

hhicks18 wrote:However, I am a good networker and to be honest, I am fully content making 50,000 doing something that I love, rather than taking a manager job making 50,000 and not going to law school.

I don't think you understand. You would be extremely lucky to get a job that paid 50k/year out of any of these schools.

dissonance1848
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby dissonance1848 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 8:55 pm

Entertaining flame, brah. Go to Liberty and fight for public display of Christmas creches.

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prezidentv8
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby prezidentv8 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:05 pm

hhicks18 wrote:...The way I see it, I did not do good on a test, yes it is a test that supposedly predicts how well I will do in law school, however, by doing poorly on the test does not mean I will not succeed.

I also did poorly on the ACT, but am graduating from my college with honors, and the ACT is suppose to be an accurate assesment on your ability to do well in college....


I just want to make sure that something is getting across, because based on the above I don't think you're quite getting this. And if this is a flame, I'm a moron but so be it. Anyway -

Disregard the "predictive" aspect of the LSAT completely. That's not the point. There are plenty of perfectly capable people in bad law schools. The point is that getting employed in the legal market is very very closely related with the level of prestige you can attach to your name, which is closely related with the prestige of the school you go to, which is closely related to your LSAT score. And for law schools, their goals include maximization of the job opportunities for their graduates (theoretically - their other goal is to pull in lots of money for their university), which is tied to their ranking, which makes the LSAT important to them. Thus, if your goal is to maximize job opportunities, you need to go to the "best" school possible in relation to the region you would like to practice in. The LSAT is an important tool for accomplishing this. On the other hand, if your goal is to minimize debt (or risk, depending on your perspective), law schools will essentially pay you for a higher LSAT score through a higher amount of scholarship money.

I'm sure you get where I'm going with this. It's not "Bad score, therefore not capable of success." It's "Bad score, therefore lots of debt and bad law school, and therefore almost no chance of getting an opportunity to succeed." As much as it might be uncomfortable to think of things this way, your success - even in terms of getting a relatively plain legal job - is not as closely matched with your legal and business abilities as it is matched with your ability to put yourself in the best position possible to get an opportunity in the first place.

I hope I didn't oversimplify this. And again, I'm not telling you not to go. But you're walking onto a football field without a helmet here. You'll probably get hurt. Go back in the locker room and get your helmet.

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mpj_3050
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby mpj_3050 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:08 pm

OP, these schools are all absolutely horrible investments at anything close to sticker. I have a T3 scholarship with loose stipulations which makes my tuition 3k a year. Think about that - you would pay 10x more for law school per year than I would, and we aren't talking Yale vs. Cooley here. Plus, I have family help and can ride out a prolonged period of looking for something.

You said you would be married? If your spouse and you both have sticker debt levels from these schools your marriage would be destroyed. The debt level would be enormous and nearly impossible to pay off. 50k a year would be a dream from these schools and with your level of debt you would be miserable.

You have to retake - bottom line. I have a 160 and a similar GPA and have vastly better options than you (no offense) and I am still uncertain about whether or not I will go to law school. America is a giant cesspool right now and it will take years and years for things to get better. Have you looked at job reports? They are absolutely horrific on all fronts and you can't add big debt to that.

You have 2 options: retake or stay at your current job. Best of luck to you.

And how do you know you will love being a lawyer? I thought I would love being in the Marines and guess how that ended up?

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prezidentv8
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby prezidentv8 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:09 pm

mpj_3050 wrote:If your spouse and you both have sticker debt levels from these schools your marriage would be destroyed.


Based on the above, I'm kind of curious if you saw this today: http://abovethelaw.com/2011/02/you-do-law-no-you-do-law/

bigben
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby bigben » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:15 pm

LLB2JD wrote:All I'll say is that if you go to Liberty, just pray that a George Bush type becomes president in 2014.

http://www.boston.com/news/education/higher/articles/2007/04/08/scandal_puts_spotlight_on_christian_law_school/

It would be quite a fucking accomplishment to become president in 2014.

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mpj_3050
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby mpj_3050 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:19 pm

prezidentv8 wrote:
mpj_3050 wrote:If your spouse and you both have sticker debt levels from these schools your marriage would be destroyed.


Based on the above, I'm kind of curious if you saw this today: http://abovethelaw.com/2011/02/you-do-law-no-you-do-law/


I didn't see the article but at sticker from say Mississippi College would be pushing 300k (living expenses difficult to account for) for both of them which equals arguments. In other words, the cops are going to get to know you very well from responding to complaints from the neighbors.

rebexness
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby rebexness » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:23 pm

Last edited by rebexness on Thu Nov 13, 2014 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bigben
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby bigben » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:24 pm

Just go wherever is cheapest, including any scholarships. Actually, you should make sure to get a full scholarship and avoid any debt or even any wasted cash outlay, since you may not be able to find any job at all. You've been warned.

LurkerNoMore
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby LurkerNoMore » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:45 pm

hhicks18 wrote:I want to add that law is something I have been passionate about my whole life.

Are you passionate about going to law school or practicing law? Your posts seem to disregard how it is you are going to practice law. If you have loans, you need to find a way to pay them. From any of these schools you are taking a very real risk of having to take a job that is not related to the legal profession.

hhicks18 wrote:However, I am a good networker . . .

What standards are you measuring this by? Your posts seem to indicate that you are just graduating from college? Did you work prior to going to college?

hhicks18 wrote:Not everything is driven by money.

Unless you are independently wealthy, there are certain things that are driven by money -- rent, food, loan payments. Do you have a plan for meeting these monetary obligations if you go to any of these schools? The fact that you are asking here which is the right one to go to indicates your plans are no further developed than an abstract belief that nothing bad can happen to you.

hhicks18 wrote:The way I see it, I did not do good on a test, yes it is a test that supposedly predicts how well I will do in law school, however, by doing poorly on the test does not mean I will not succeed.

You are missing the point people are trying to make here. No one has really brought up questions of how you will do in these schools because of your LSAT. They are saying, that even if you excel in these schools, there will be literally thousands of people graduating from law school at the same time as you that will better positioned to get jobs than you will be.

Legal employers use what law school you went to as a short cut to screen resumes. You may not think that's fair. You may think that is elitist. It isn't and it is. But any legal employer can pick just a small handful of schools if they wanted to and get enough qualified candidates to fill their needs for entry level positions. They don't *need* to go beyond that. The extra work it takes to look at schools not on their list really has no pay-off to them.

hhicks18 wrote:Thank you for all of your points, this is truly one of the toughest decisions I will ever make, but I am certain that it is what I should be doing, regardless of the numbers.

Why do you have to do it now? If this is a goal worth having, it's a goal worth spending the time it takes to do it right?

If you are going to go to one of these schools, you have to figure out the best one -- because none of them are good in any sort of universal sense.

1. Figure out what you will do if you get failed out (look at the attrition rates -- I believe these schools are old school where they take anyone and just fail out a substantial number after a year of tuition)

2. Figure out how you have to network to get a job. -- Not some abstract "I'm a good networker" but, if I went to X, I could join A, B, C organizations in the area, seek internships at D, E, F by demonstrating my interest in the following ways. If that fails, I could seek out... If that fails, I could try... I need to do these things by... (And make all of these plans by talking to specific connections you have and looking at the specific employers that these schools have placed at).

3. Figure out what your plan B is if you don't get a legal job.

As you are going through these type of exercises, it should become pretty clear which one puts you in the best position.

In short, if you have to ask which one to go to here, you haven't done enough homework on your own to actually have anything more than a crapshoot chance of actually seeing your goals come to fruition.

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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby soullesswonder » Wed Feb 02, 2011 9:59 pm

Plan2008 wrote:
Veyron wrote:People bag on people who don't get into T"100" law schools for the same reason you won't want a doctor from a Caribbean D.O. school doing surgery on your dad, in a professions where life, death, or freedom is at stake the old "kindergarten" adage "you can achieve anything you can dream", no longer applies, some people just aren't good enough (or rather, didn't choose to work hard enough to cultivate the intelligence necessary to become a lawyer).

That being said, I can completely understand if, as someone who could have gotten into a "better" school you choose to attend one of these schools because of religious or geographic preference. I would probably recommend Liberty or Ave Marie because of their they have often served as feeders to government positions under conservative administrations. Although with Obama being in office, this isn't likely to help much, by the time you graduate, things might be very different.



Here is something that is interesting. ASU (Phoenix) is ranked above 50 by USNWR and in the same city there is a T4 called phoenix u or something (being local they send me flyers). Anyway, 71% of ASu grads pass the bar while 98% of PU grads do. The ASU grads typically have far better GPA/LSAT going in. So which school is better? The up and coming state school or the TTTT.

If you want to get a job right out of school, I'd say ASU. But if you want to be prepared to make money and do good work five years down the road, the answer is not as clear. Having said that, I'd rather cut off my own arm than go to TTTT. There is something to be said for being granted the respect your hard work has earned. IMHO.


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Veyron
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby Veyron » Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:00 pm

Plan2008 wrote:
Veyron wrote:
Plan2008 wrote:
Veyron wrote:People bag on people who don't get into T"100" law schools for the same reason you won't want a doctor from a Caribbean D.O. school doing surgery on your dad, in a professions where life, death, or freedom is at stake the old "kindergarten" adage "you can achieve anything you can dream", no longer applies, some people just aren't good enough (or rather, didn't choose to work hard enough to cultivate the intelligence necessary to become a lawyer).

That being said, I can completely understand if, as someone who could have gotten into a "better" school you choose to attend one of these schools because of religious or geographic preference. I would probably recommend Liberty or Ave Marie because of their they have often served as feeders to government positions under conservative administrations. Although with Obama being in office, this isn't likely to help much, by the time you graduate, things might be very different.



Here is something that is interesting. ASU (Phoenix) is ranked above 50 by USNWR and in the same city there is a T4 called phoenix u or something (being local they send me flyers). Anyway, 71% of ASu grads pass the bar while 98% of PU grads do. The ASU grads typically have far better GPA/LSAT going in. So which school is better? The up and coming state school or the TTTT.

If you want to get a job right out of school, I'd say ASU. But if you want to be prepared to make money and do good work five years down the road, the answer is not as clear. Having said that, I'd rather cut off my own arm than go to TTTT. There is something to be said for being granted the respect your hard work has earned. IMHO.


Because PSOL works bar prep into the curriculum while ASU does not, I guarantee you that the average ASU grad is making more 5 years out.


Yeah, how can you guarantee it. Did you do a survey? I'd say you are wrong, but I don't know either.

Most the grads from PU, I expect, are professionals who went back to school. Most the ASU grads are green around the edges. The ones that don't get placed will die on the vine and end up not practicing law. That's okay, we need good school teachers too.


Let me put it this way, I know enough to know that the acronym is PSOL. Thank you for playing.

Plan2008
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby Plan2008 » Wed Feb 02, 2011 11:36 pm

Veyron wrote:Let me put it this way, I know enough to know that the acronym is PSOL. Thank you for playing.

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jwrash
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby jwrash » Thu Feb 03, 2011 3:10 pm

soullesswonder wrote:
Plan2008 wrote:
Veyron wrote:People bag on people who don't get into T"100" law schools for the same reason you won't want a doctor from a Caribbean D.O. school doing surgery on your dad, in a professions where life, death, or freedom is at stake the old "kindergarten" adage "you can achieve anything you can dream", no longer applies, some people just aren't good enough (or rather, didn't choose to work hard enough to cultivate the intelligence necessary to become a lawyer).

That being said, I can completely understand if, as someone who could have gotten into a "better" school you choose to attend one of these schools because of religious or geographic preference. I would probably recommend Liberty or Ave Marie because of their they have often served as feeders to government positions under conservative administrations. Although with Obama being in office, this isn't likely to help much, by the time you graduate, things might be very different.



Here is something that is interesting. ASU (Phoenix) is ranked above 50 by USNWR and in the same city there is a T4 called phoenix u or something (being local they send me flyers). Anyway, 71% of ASu grads pass the bar while 98% of PU grads do. The ASU grads typically have far better GPA/LSAT going in. So which school is better? The up and coming state school or the TTTT.

If you want to get a job right out of school, I'd say ASU. But if you want to be prepared to make money and do good work five years down the road, the answer is not as clear. Having said that, I'd rather cut off my own arm than go to TTTT. There is something to be said for being granted the respect your hard work has earned. IMHO.


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jdl239
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby jdl239 » Mon Feb 21, 2011 5:40 pm

Bump

Miss College with full tuition scholarship or Ole Miss at in-state Sticker?

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General Tso
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Re: Need Help. Liberty, Mississippi College, Ave Marie

Postby General Tso » Mon Feb 21, 2011 6:04 pm

jdl239 wrote:Bump

Miss College with full tuition scholarship or Ole Miss at in-state Sticker?


probably MC if no GPA requirement on the $$ and if you will need to borrow to attend Ole Miss. goes without saying, but there's a 99% chance you will end up with a small firm (or out of the legal field) if you attend MC. There is about a 5% chance of getting a job at a big or medium sized firm out of Ole Miss.

personally I like small firm work, and a 40-45k job out of MC with no debt would be appealing. to me at least.

if you can afford to attend Ole Miss debt-free though, I'd attend there. the quality of life in Oxford is 10x greater than that of Jackson. and the school does have a better reputation and stronger alum network.




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