Going to a school with no ties in the region

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2011Law
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Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby 2011Law » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:47 am

Wondering how it works exactly when you go to a school in a region where you have zero ties. I'm going to assume you have to network as best as you can, but how do you show firms that you are committed to staying with them and the area? Actually, I don't get why firms would need to see that you are committed to the area or whatever before they hire you, I mean how common is it for an associate to just get up and leave to practice in a different state?

Or maybe this isn't a real problem and I completely misunderstood some people on tls.

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mpj_3050
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby mpj_3050 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:50 am

I believe that going to the school is in and of itself a strong tie. What school or schools are you talking about?

Edit: Any info from folks in school w/ this type of experience would be awesome.

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bergg007
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby bergg007 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 12:52 am

2011Law wrote:Wondering how it works exactly when you go to a school in a region where you have zero ties. I'm going to assume you have to network as best as you can, but how do you show firms that you are committed to staying with them and the area? Actually, I don't get why firms would need to see that you are committed to the area or whatever before they hire you, I mean how common is it for an associate to just get up and leave to practice in a different state?

Or maybe this isn't a real problem and I completely misunderstood some people on tls.



I'm interested in this too. I am in with good schoolies at Wake Forest and Alabama, but I have no ties. I'm committed to stay in what ever region I go to school, how do i prove it?

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Grizz
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby Grizz » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:03 am

bergg007 wrote:
2011Law wrote:Wondering how it works exactly when you go to a school in a region where you have zero ties. I'm going to assume you have to network as best as you can, but how do you show firms that you are committed to staying with them and the area? Actually, I don't get why firms would need to see that you are committed to the area or whatever before they hire you, I mean how common is it for an associate to just get up and leave to practice in a different state?

Or maybe this isn't a real problem and I completely misunderstood some people on tls.



I'm interested in this too. I am in with good schoolies at Wake Forest and Alabama, but I have no ties. I'm committed to stay in what ever region I go to school, how do i prove it?


You could:
- Get a 1L jerb there.
- Tell employers that you went to the school so you could work in the region.
- Downplay your other ties to places you've lived in the past.
- Tell interviewers you talked to attys. and have done other research that has made you conclude that you would like to stay in NC/AL for the long haul.

2011Law
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby 2011Law » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:07 am

mpj_3050 wrote:I believe that going to the school is in and of itself a strong tie. What school or schools are you talking about?

Edit: Any info from folks in school w/ this type of experience would be awesome.


Right now I'm leaning toward GW or BU, though I just started applying and can't be sure where I'll be admitted / end up.

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Stonewall
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby Stonewall » Tue Feb 01, 2011 1:10 am

bergg007 wrote:
2011Law wrote:Wondering how it works exactly when you go to a school in a region where you have zero ties. I'm going to assume you have to network as best as you can, but how do you show firms that you are committed to staying with them and the area? Actually, I don't get why firms would need to see that you are committed to the area or whatever before they hire you, I mean how common is it for an associate to just get up and leave to practice in a different state?

Or maybe this isn't a real problem and I completely misunderstood some people on tls.



I'm interested in this too. I am in with good schoolies at Wake Forest and Alabama, but I have no ties. I'm committed to stay in what ever region I go to school, how do i prove it?


right there with you at wake. I have strong ties in Charlotte and that has become a huge factor in me possibly attending

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Pricer
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby Pricer » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:25 am

Good thread. I've been wondering the same about UT and working in Dallas/Houston with no connections to the southwest at all.

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dr123
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby dr123 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:30 am

If you moved around a lot before starting law school and then go to a school in a region you have no ties in are employers going to see you as a flight risk?

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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby Aqualibrium » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:32 am

dr123 wrote:If you moved around a lot before starting law school and then go to a school in a region you have no ties in are employers going to see you as a flight risk?


Yes. Nothing you can't overcome with a well crafted story and a little research.

2011Law
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby 2011Law » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:14 am

kinda random bump, but I wanted to see if there might be any other input.

showNprove
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby showNprove » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:29 am

If you go to a good school in a big market (e.g., GW, BU, Fordham), then lack of ties will matter little. The smaller the market, the more ties matter. The fact that you go to school in that city is not a tie that employers value. When a Richmond firm is choosing between 5 William & Mary students who are similarly qualified, they're going to take the Virginian most of the time. Keep in mind you're also competing against your classmates for these jobs, all of who also have the "I go to law school here" tie, and many with stronger ties. You'll need to make sure you have better grades/interview skills/etc. than them if you're going to beat them out.

The best situation, IMO, is going to a school outside your home market that is good enough to reach your home market (e.g., you're from Los Angeles and you go to Columbia). Then you have access to the school's market (which you may or may not be able to get a job in, depending on the market and your grades), and you have plenty of options back home (where employers would love to have hometown students with an excellent and diverse education). The next best options are (1) going to a good school in a big market, or (2) going to the best school in your home market. The worst option is going to a decent (or worse) regional school in a small market to which you have no ties.

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Grizz
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby Grizz » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:46 am

showNprove wrote:The fact that you go to school in that city is not a tie that employers value.


Depending on how you sell yourself, it can be a good enough tie if you play it correctly.

Similar example:

"I came to University of Texas so I could work in Houston. I like that the Houston market is growing, and I want to work in energy regulation, as I pursued a degree in environmental law during my undergrad. [insert some tidbit about energy regulation]. I have visited the city, and I see it as a place I can be for the long term. I have talked to many lawyers in the city, and they have all described it as a great place to be an begin and develop a legal career in my chosen field. [if you got a 1L job in the city, tell how this confirmed your desire to be there]

I know my resume doesn't scream Houston, but I'm not interested in the other places I have ties. I am from Idaho, and while I enjoyed growing up there, there isn't a lot of work in the type of law I want to practice. I went to undergrad in NY, which I enjoyed, but I want to get more hands on experience and client contact, which your firm has a reputation for, as opposed to many firms in NY. I think Houston would be the ideal market for me."

See what I did there?

showNprove
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby showNprove » Tue Feb 08, 2011 1:50 am

rad law wrote:
showNprove wrote:The fact that you go to school in that city is not a tie that employers value.


Depending on how you sell yourself, it can be a good enough tie if you play it correctly.

Similar example:

"I came to University of Texas so I could work in Houston. I like that the Houston market is growing, and I want to work in energy regulation, as I pursued a degree in environmental law during my undergrad. [insert some tidbit about energy regulation]. I have visited the city, and I see it as a place I can be for the long term. I have talked to many lawyers in the city, and they have all described it as a great place to be an begin and develop a legal career in my chosen field. [if you got a 1L job in the city, tell how this confirmed your desire to be there]

I know my resume doesn't scream Houston, but I'm not interested in the other places I have ties. I am from Idaho, and while I enjoyed growing up there, there isn't a lot of work in the type of law I want to practice. I went to undergrad in NY, which I enjoyed, but I want to get more hands on experience and client contact, which your firm has a reputation for, as opposed to many firms in NY. I think Houston would be the ideal market for me."

See what I did there?

Yes, and then the firm takes the UT student who is actually from Texas, has a higher GPA, and also says he's interested in Houston.

Edit:
In this example, there will be literally hundreds of students from the state of Texas at UT Law, and everyone who is also interviewing with this firm would also say they are interested in Houston. The only factor that could be in OP's favor is his credentials--notably, GPA and Law Review, and to a lesser extent interviewing skills. So as long as OP has a great GPA he would do fine.

Edit #2:
Your example uses UT Law, which is a very good school, so it falls within one of my exceptions: going to a good school in a large market. I'm sure OP would do fine at UT Law (although not as fine as his similarly-situated resident classmates). If OP went to Baylor, on the other hand, there could be a problem.

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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby Skyhook » Tue Feb 08, 2011 9:20 am

All of this "ties" business bothers me.
As an immigrant, I've lived in the US for 3 years, all in Florida but I'm not committed to the state. (Except for the obvious weather advantages right now :) )

Am I going to be at that much of a disadvantage if I go to another region?
Would a firm value some world experience?

I like Rad's interview technique. For me it would extend to living and working in different countries and then whatever school jobs I get to show how much I like the US and then the city.

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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby Informative » Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:37 am

2011Law wrote:Wondering how it works exactly when you go to a school in a region where you have zero ties. I'm going to assume you have to network as best as you can, but how do you show firms that you are committed to staying with them and the area? Actually, I don't get why firms would need to see that you are committed to the area or whatever before they hire you, I mean how common is it for an associate to just get up and leave to practice in a different state?

Or maybe this isn't a real problem and I completely misunderstood some people on tls.



It is not a problem for schools in large markets, like D.C. or New York. No one is actually "from" those markets, so you'll never get any of the homer questions like you would in Boston/Minn/Chicago, etc.

Boston is probably the worst. Very difficult market to break into if you have no ties. Minneapolis is very provincial, as are some of the southern cities. Dallas/Houston can be so pro-Texas, there are stories of "yankees" having a hard time in recruiting. Not sure if the stories are true though.

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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby de5igual » Tue Feb 08, 2011 3:48 pm

showNprove wrote:Yes, and then the firm takes the UT student who is actually from Texas, has a higher GPA, and also says he's interested in Houston.

Edit:
In this example, there will be literally hundreds of students from the state of Texas at UT Law, and everyone who is also interviewing with this firm would also say they are interested in Houston. The only factor that could be in OP's favor is his credentials--notably, GPA and Law Review, and to a lesser extent interviewing skills. So as long as OP has a great GPA he would do fine.

Edit #2:
Your example uses UT Law, which is a very good school, so it falls within one of my exceptions: going to a good school in a large market. I'm sure OP would do fine at UT Law (although not as fine as his similarly-situated resident classmates). If OP went to Baylor, on the other hand, there could be a problem.


this is true. UT will give someone with absolutely no-ties to the state a chance at breaking in, but the Texas-born-and-raised student will always have an edge, all things being equal.

2011Law
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby 2011Law » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:32 pm

Informative wrote:It is not a problem for schools in large markets, like D.C. or New York. No one is actually "from" those markets, so you'll never get any of the homer questions like you would in Boston/Minn/Chicago, etc.

Boston is probably the worst. Very difficult market to break into if you have no ties.



showNprove wrote:If you go to a good school in a big market (e.g., GW, BU, Fordham), then lack of ties will matter little. The smaller the market, the more ties matter.



Wow, so who is right about BU, since it is one of the main places I am thinking about going? BU is obviously not NYC (which is in its own world) or DC, but I was under the impression that it's still fairly large and biglaw pays the same there as in DC or NYC.

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bk1
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby bk1 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:34 pm

2011Law wrote:
Informative wrote:It is not a problem for schools in large markets, like D.C. or New York. No one is actually "from" those markets, so you'll never get any of the homer questions like you would in Boston/Minn/Chicago, etc.

Boston is probably the worst. Very difficult market to break into if you have no ties.



showNprove wrote:If you go to a good school in a big market (e.g., GW, BU, Fordham), then lack of ties will matter little. The smaller the market, the more ties matter.



Wow, so who is right about BU, since it is one of the main places I am thinking about going? BU is obviously not NYC (which is in its own world) or DC, but I was under the impression that it's still fairly large and biglaw pays the same there as in DC or NYC.


Informative is generally wrong about everything he posts.

2011Law
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby 2011Law » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:40 pm

bk1 wrote:
2011Law wrote:
Informative wrote:It is not a problem for schools in large markets, like D.C. or New York. No one is actually "from" those markets, so you'll never get any of the homer questions like you would in Boston/Minn/Chicago, etc.

Boston is probably the worst. Very difficult market to break into if you have no ties.



showNprove wrote:If you go to a good school in a big market (e.g., GW, BU, Fordham), then lack of ties will matter little. The smaller the market, the more ties matter.



Wow, so who is right about BU, since it is one of the main places I am thinking about going? BU is obviously not NYC (which is in its own world) or DC, but I was under the impression that it's still fairly large and biglaw pays the same there as in DC or NYC.


Informative is generally wrong about everything he posts.


That's good to know.


Anyone have experience with Boston?

2011Law
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby 2011Law » Wed Feb 09, 2011 7:48 pm

Also a more random question about the topic more generally. If life were to kinda suck for you and you don't have a job lined up after you graduate (not actually sure how common that is either, specifically if you want biglaw), if you pass the bar in the state you went to law school, wouldn't that also prove you're dedicated to that region?

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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby cowgirl_bebop » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:02 pm

So to show commitment to a region, you tell that only to the employers in that region, correct? Could you tell OOS employers that you have every intention of moving? Or is that just too risky?

And FYI, I have no understanding whatsoever of the legal employment process. School me if need be.

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Grizz
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby Grizz » Wed Feb 09, 2011 8:36 pm

cowgirl_bebop wrote:So to show commitment to a region, you tell that only to the employers in that region, correct? Could you tell OOS employers that you have every intention of moving? Or is that just too risky?

And FYI, I have no understanding whatsoever of the legal employment process. School me if need be.


I don't get what you're asking.

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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby cowgirl_bebop » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:32 pm

rad law wrote:
cowgirl_bebop wrote:So to show commitment to a region, you tell that only to the employers in that region, correct? Could you tell OOS employers that you have every intention of moving? Or is that just too risky?

And FYI, I have no understanding whatsoever of the legal employment process. School me if need be.


I don't get what you're asking.


I want to go to a school in the Midwest but would definitely prefer escaping it if at all possible. I know my chances are slim, but I am an east coast/southern girl and want to live out here with my family. I'd stay there if I had to, but I would rather not.

So if I get an interview with a local firm, I should tell them that I am committed to staying in the Midwest, especially since I have no ties at all to the area, right? I guess to some people it would look as if I just wanted to go to school and would ditch the area for the first offer back home (which is 100% true), but I am sure that will hurt my chances of getting an offer. On the other hand, if I interviewed with a firm on the East Coast, I would have to tell them that I wanted to move back there, right? I dont want them to think that I went to school in the Midwest and am unwilling to go back. Is telling two different employers two different things about your location preference generally frowned upon?

That said, that hypothetical may be a far cry from how law students discuss employment with firms, because I have no idea how it works.

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dr123
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby dr123 » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:34 pm

Could someone better define what "ties to a region" are? I have lived in 7 different states, do I have "ties" to all of these regions?

de5igual
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Re: Going to a school with no ties in the region

Postby de5igual » Wed Feb 09, 2011 10:55 pm

dr123 wrote:Could someone better define what "ties to a region" are? I have lived in 7 different states, do I have "ties" to all of these regions?


not sure how to define it, but it could range from a "strong tie" of being born/growing up some place to a "weak tie" of having family some place.

so yeah, arguably you'd have ties to all 7 places, but there will only be maybe 2 or 3 where they'd be strong enough to matter. general rule of thumb, if you can talk intelligently about a place, show a connection, and know things about the place that only a local would know, then it would count.




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