UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

(Rankings, Profiles, Tuition, Student Life, . . . )

UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

UT (93k)
27
30%
NYU
43
48%
Berkeley
19
21%
 
Total votes: 89

User avatar
re-applicant
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:26 pm

UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby re-applicant » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:45 pm

-Merit aid plus resident tuition at UT vs. sticker at Berk and NYU
-Strong preference for biglaw in SF, NY, or DC.
-Ties to SF

Also, would I have a shot at money from UCLA or Georgetown? 3.65/173
Last edited by re-applicant on Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
NoleinNY
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:58 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby NoleinNY » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:50 pm

How strong are those SF ties?

User avatar
re-applicant
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:26 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby re-applicant » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:51 pm

NoleinNY wrote:How strong are those SF ties?


I've lived in the Bay my whole life, including college.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:53 pm

Those can't be your only choices?

firemed
Posts: 1195
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:36 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby firemed » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:55 pm

Before I vote, that "93K" refers to a scholly, and the others are at sticker?

Assuming this is the case, the only thing holding me back from voting UT is the fact that you don't want to live in Texas (not that I blame you).


Also, money is realistic from UCLA or G-town in my opinion, but it would help if apps are already in.

User avatar
re-applicant
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:26 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby re-applicant » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:56 pm

firemed wrote:Before I vote, that "93K" refers to a scholly, and the others are at sticker?

Assuming this is the case, the only thing holding me back from voting UT is the fact that you don't want to live in Texas (not that I blame you).


Also, money is realistic from UCLA or G-town in my opinion, but it would help if apps are already in.


That is correct, the other two are at sticker.

firemed
Posts: 1195
Joined: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:36 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby firemed » Mon Jan 31, 2011 9:59 pm

I am really debt averse. I would take the scholly. Simply put, a life spent in TX with the money to live a decent lifestyle is better than living a shitty life dirt poor in an awesome city in my opinion. YMMV.

User avatar
re-applicant
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:26 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby re-applicant » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:01 pm

r6_philly wrote:Those can't be your only choices?


I'm in waitlist/hold/deferral/reserve situations with four other top 10 schools--one of each, actually.

User avatar
clintonius
Posts: 1239
Joined: Mon Feb 08, 2010 1:50 am

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby clintonius » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:03 pm

Without knowing more, I've gotta vote NYU. You can get back to the Bay Area if you have ties, and it opens up the NY market in a way that the other schools don't. DC is still tough.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby r6_philly » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:05 pm

re-applicant wrote:
r6_philly wrote:Those can't be your only choices?


I'm in waitlist/hold/deferral/reserve situations with four other top 10 schools--one of each, actually.


Really :(

I'd try leverage your other 2 choices into a full scholly at UT when you visit. If not I would go with NYU at sticker. It seem way safer than Berkeley at sticker. NYC generally is thought to be an easy market and you will need the biglaw job to pay back your loans. Since you have connection back in the Bay, it's not impossible to get back.

vicuna
Posts: 208
Joined: Mon Jun 07, 2010 9:54 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby vicuna » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:13 pm

clintonius wrote:Without knowing more, I've gotta vote NYU. You can get back to the Bay Area if you have ties, and it opens up the NY market in a way that the other schools don't. DC is still tough.

User avatar
NoleinNY
Posts: 1031
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 4:58 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby NoleinNY » Mon Jan 31, 2011 10:18 pm

re-applicant wrote:
NoleinNY wrote:How strong are those SF ties?


I've lived in the Bay my whole life, including college.


In that case, unless you decide a life in TX with little debt is what you want, I'd pick NYU. As others have pointed out, it opens up a whole lot of doors that the others can't. Your ties + NYU's presitge = trip back to SF if you want it.

User avatar
re-applicant
Posts: 193
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 5:26 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby re-applicant » Tue Feb 01, 2011 2:49 am

I'm a bit surprised UT is getting so many votes. From what I've seen on this site, the probability of getting biglaw from a school like UT seems to be well below 50%, while it's well above 50% for NYU. Is 100k less worth a greater chance of striking out entirely?

chasgoose
Posts: 715
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby chasgoose » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:13 am

First, as far as Berkeley vs. NYU goes, I would probably pick NYU. While Berkeley has the edge for SF placement (which is v. hard no matter where you go), NYU is probably a better option for NY/DC placement. Also, tuition-wise, NYU will probably end up being cheaper. Right now in-state tuition at Berkeley is almost equal to NYU tuition (44k vs. 47k), but given CA's budget woes, Berkeley's tuition will probably increase to make the cost of attending over 3 years more expensive (even considering the higher COL for NYU). Unless you really had a strong preference for Berkeley over NYU from an academic style/setting perspective or really wanted SF law (which as mentioned earlier, is no guarantee no matter where you go), NYU will probably give you more options plus probably save you some money.

When you throw UT into the mix, things get more tricky. It's definitely true that 93k is a lot of money, but UT and that money do come with some trade-offs vs. NYU/Berkeley. Although UT is a highly ranked school, it will definitely put you at a serious disadvantage as far as big law in SF/NY/DC are concerned. While their employment numbers are skewed as many people choose UT, knowing they will stay in Texas no matter what, you will probably have to be at least in the top 20% if not the top 10% of your class to have any shot at SF/NY/DC big law. Since no 0L can truly predict how well he/she will do in law school with enough accuracy to know that they will even be top 20%, going to UT poses a big potential risk for your career prospects, particularly your ability to have a career outside of TX. I'm not saying that it will happen, but when making decisions like this with such high stakes, I think whether or not I would be willing to accept the worst case scenario for each choice. The obvious worst case scenario is that you don't do well enough to get employed after graduation, but since that would be the case no matter where you go, the next worst case scenario, given your options is getting stuck in TX for your career. Not to rag on TX, but since your preferences are for SF/NY/DC, I imagine that isn't an optimal situation for you. You might go there and fall in love with TX and never want to leave, but you might not. If getting stuck in TX isn't worth 93k to you, NYU/Berkeley might be the better option.

User avatar
Sogui
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:32 am

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby Sogui » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:33 am

I have a theory that is lacks almost any verifiable proof, but I'll offer it up anyway

Your LSAT is probably a better indicator of where you will fall in a class than you realize. Take your LSAT score, if it is reasonably close to what your average PT score was, otherwise use the average. Now assuming you are a hard worker and continue to follow the wisdom of these forums, that score will roughly plot your class rank.

With a 173 you would be competitive for law review at UT, possibly for Berkeley, but NYU would be tougher since your LSAT alone places you just at the top quartile...

So let's just assume for the sake of convenience you will rank higher at UT than at Berkeley or NYU, you will also receive more money... but at the cost of prestige/networking/etc... then what?

One concern for UT is that if you head back to California, firms will be curious why you left a state after 20+ years and are now insisting you want to come back to Cali. They might see UT as an intentional geographic choice, booming legal market with low taxes and cheap real estate, and your activity in CA as simply hedging your bets.

However, this isn't much of a problem if you explain the financial aid differences, no interviewer would press the geography issue if Texas is saving you $100k in debt.

My final thought is on your city preference, why SF-NY-DC? Is it because biglaw pays $160k in those towns? Or simply because you like those cities?

If it's just a $$$ issue then I would suggest going to UT, enjoying your inevitable success there, and consider staying if you enjoy the state. I promise you that $140k in Dallas/Houston/Austin will go a lot farther than $160k in NY or DC. With the financial aid from UT you could own a large luxury home in a posh Dallas suburb before you are 30 while the NYU=>NYC Biglaw route will get you far less with far more debt and taxes.

You need to decide just how "strongly" your prefer NY/DC/SF. If you manage to get top 10% at UT, NY/DC/SF biglaw might still be an option for you as well, and would definitely be the "best" choice if you think you could make it happen. You say you've lived in the Bay Area your whole life, what is it about the area and the "city" that appeals to you? Are NY/DC/SF realistically the only places where you can find those things?

User avatar
Sogui
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:32 am

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby Sogui » Tue Feb 01, 2011 3:43 am

re-applicant wrote:I'm a bit surprised UT is getting so many votes. From what I've seen on this site, the probability of getting biglaw from a school like UT seems to be well below 50%, while it's well above 50% for NYU. Is 100k less worth a greater chance of striking out entirely?


Depends on "where" your biglaw targets are. I'm assuming you have a pretty impressive record, but your GPA held you back from $$$ at NYU/Berkeley. I got less than $93k from UT and I went there for undergrad, was an in-state resident, and had numbers materially higher than yours in both categories. Having said that, you should have no problem getting top 25% at UT if you "do the work". Top 25% should likewise give you no problem finding biglaw work in Dallas or Houston. There you can work with Vault 100 firms making $140k + bonuses in a legal market that is doing very well and one of the few that continues to expand in this uncertain market.

From what I read on the Vault reports you will also have an "unfair" advantage on out-of-state schools. Like if I interview at Vinson and Elkins at say, ~top 40% at Columbia and they have to pick between me and a top 20% guy from UT, they might opt for the UT candidate even though I'd say 40th percentile is harder at CLS than 20th percentile at UT. If Mr. CLS had gone to UT he might be top 15% while Mr. UT would have ended up at median if he went to CLS, but the offices are filled with UT alumni and they might see Mr. UT as a safer pick due to geography.

User avatar
jtemp320
Posts: 481
Joined: Fri Jul 30, 2010 6:27 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby jtemp320 » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:37 am

Sogui wrote:I have a theory that is lacks almost any verifiable proof, but I'll offer it up anyway

Your LSAT is probably a better indicator of where you will fall in a class than you realize. Take your LSAT score, if it is reasonably close to what your average PT score was, otherwise use the average. Now assuming you are a hard worker and continue to follow the wisdom of these forums, that score will roughly plot your class rank.

With a 173 you would be competitive for law review at UT, possibly for Berkeley, but NYU would be tougher since your LSAT alone places you just at the top quartile...



Lolwut? I'll buy that the LSAT is in some general way predicative but let me give you a scenario. I scored a 160 on my diag and then studied diligently for three months averaging 165 on my first ten practice tests and I got a 167 on the actual test. I studied more, got the hang of logic games which were killing me before averaged 173 on my next ten practice tests including 3 177s in a row before test day and got a 174. So will I be fairly high in my class at NYU because I got a 174 and or am I probably average at Texas because I got a 167? That theory dosen't make sense. The LSAT is unquestionably a learnable test - and whatever they teach in law school - unless its LR, RC and LG the correlation with the LSAT will only go so far. My point - I doubt Berkeley will be easier then NYU because of their lower median LSAT and OP should not make a decision on that basis.

OP sorry if that derails your thread at all...I have the same three options right now and similiar goals - I don't want to end up in Texas and I love both the bay area and NYC so ultimately my choice will be based on visits/geographic preference. Thats a tough call though I guess conventional wisdom is NYU because its a T6, CCN etc etc. But they are both amazing schools and you have to go to the place that feels right. Good luck!

chasgoose
Posts: 715
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:18 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby chasgoose » Tue Feb 01, 2011 4:59 am

Sogui wrote:I have a theory that is lacks almost any verifiable proof, but I'll offer it up anyway

Your LSAT is probably a better indicator of where you will fall in a class than you realize. Take your LSAT score, if it is reasonably close to what your average PT score was, otherwise use the average. Now assuming you are a hard worker and continue to follow the wisdom of these forums, that score will roughly plot your class rank.

With a 173 you would be competitive for law review at UT, possibly for Berkeley, but NYU would be tougher since your LSAT alone places you just at the top quartile...

So let's just assume for the sake of convenience you will rank higher at UT than at Berkeley or NYU, you will also receive more money... but at the cost of prestige/networking/etc... then what?

One concern for UT is that if you head back to California, firms will be curious why you left a state after 20+ years and are now insisting you want to come back to Cali. They might see UT as an intentional geographic choice, booming legal market with low taxes and cheap real estate, and your activity in CA as simply hedging your bets.

However, this isn't much of a problem if you explain the financial aid differences, no interviewer would press the geography issue if Texas is saving you $100k in debt.

My final thought is on your city preference, why SF-NY-DC? Is it because biglaw pays $160k in those towns? Or simply because you like those cities?

If it's just a $$$ issue then I would suggest going to UT, enjoying your inevitable success there, and consider staying if you enjoy the state. I promise you that $140k in Dallas/Houston/Austin will go a lot farther than $160k in NY or DC. With the financial aid from UT you could own a large luxury home in a posh Dallas suburb before you are 30 while the NYU=>NYC Biglaw route will get you far less with far more debt and taxes.

You need to decide just how "strongly" your prefer NY/DC/SF. If you manage to get top 10% at UT, NY/DC/SF biglaw might still be an option for you as well, and would definitely be the "best" choice if you think you could make it happen. You say you've lived in the Bay Area your whole life, what is it about the area and the "city" that appeals to you? Are NY/DC/SF realistically the only places where you can find those things?


I'm not totally convinced that LSAT correlates with law school success. Yes, it's been said that LSAT is the closest measure of potential for success in law school, but its still a relatively weak connection. Even if you ignore high LSATs from splitters who might be smart but lazy, being in the top quartile for LSAT doesn't guarantee one will be in the top quartile for law school GPA. I agree that the OP will probably have a better chance of doing better at UT than NYU/Berkeley, but for his stated goals, he would have to do significantly better. He would probably have to be at the top 10% at UT in order to have the same shot at NY big law as the top 30% at NYU (if not lower), especially since many of the top NY firms don't recruit at UT. Furthermore, lets say for the sake of argument that he doesn't do as well as his LSAT/GPA indicates and he ends up somewhere in the top 50%. His options will still be far better coming from NYU than they will be coming from UT. I just think its never a good idea to assume you will be top 20% anywhere when making a decision about which law school to attend. Better to consider what would happen if you did worse than you anticipated and weigh your options in that case.

Also, while I agree with you that SF/NY/DC aren't the only cities worth living in, and many people live very happy lives in the big Texas cities, the OP stated that his preference was for the first option. As I mentioned earlier, if the OP goes to UT, there is a very real possibility that Texas might be his only option after graduation and once there it's not as easy to get out to SF/DC/NY once he's there as he might like. Yes he could learn to like TX, but it is very different than the Bay Area where the OP grew up or the other cities he's interested in. All I'm saying is that the OP should seriously consider whether or not he would be happy with a career in Texas. 93k seems great right now, but if, 10 years from now, the OP is miserable in TX he probably would give that money back in a heartbeat. Admittedly, who knows, he could be miserable in SF/NY/DC, but unless the OP is top 10-20% at UT, NYU/Berkeley will most likely give him more options location-wise.

Sogui wrote:Depends on "where" your biglaw targets are. I'm assuming you have a pretty impressive record, but your GPA held you back from $$$ at NYU/Berkeley. I got less than $93k from UT and I went there for undergrad, was an in-state resident, and had numbers materially higher than yours in both categories. Having said that, you should have no problem getting top 25% at UT if you "do the work". Top 25% should likewise give you no problem finding biglaw work in Dallas or Houston. There you can work with Vault 100 firms making $140k + bonuses in a legal market that is doing very well and one of the few that continues to expand in this uncertain market.


Once again, I sort of agree with you but I have a couple problems. Yes, top 25% at UT can probably get biglaw work in Dallas or Houston making 140k+, but the idea that the OP will have no problem getting top 25% at UT if he simply "does the work" doesn't quite work for me. Getting top 25% at any top 20 law school is not something guaranteed to anyone. Based on LSATs the OP is in the top 25% of his class going in, but who knows how well he will do in law school? Doing the work and being a good student is only half the battle, one's ability to respond to the pressure and apply that information successfully also is a major determinant of law school success and unfortunately the only way to know how well the OP will be at that is for him to actually go to law school. LSATs aren't a solid enough predictor to guarantee the OP's law school potential to that degree. It probably means that if he does the work and is a good student he will be in the top 50%, but that would also probably be true at NYU/Berkeley. Top 50% from NYU/Berkeley leaves the OP with more options than top 50% at UT. The dropoff in career opportunities (even in TX) from top 25% to top 50% would be far more severe at UT than they would at NYU/Berkeley.

User avatar
Sogui
Posts: 621
Joined: Mon Feb 23, 2009 12:32 am

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby Sogui » Tue Feb 01, 2011 5:19 am

All good points, but I still think OP will be can assume some "higher" degree of success at UT.

As I pointed out, UT offered him more money to attend than my in-state 3.9/176, he probably has something in his application that sets him apart. I could be wrong though.

Sure taking LSAT => Rank is risky, but he's already one step ahead by using TLS as a resource to avoid common 0L/1L mistakes. Furthermore a 173 is far ahead of the 25th percentile (168) at UT. While it's not a "sure thing", I'd say he has a strong intellectual edge over the student body there if a 173 is representative of his abilities.

I'm also guilty of second-guessing OP's preference for the cities. He states a "strong preference" but if I had to guess he hasn't spent a lot of time in Texas. At the end of the day I don't think the difference between Dallas and NYC/DC is large enough to tolerate the amount of debt and pressure he could put himself under. If he still loves NYC/DC/SF it will still be there during the job hunt or later down the road if he wants to lateral or go in-house in those cities. Working at a top biglaw firm in Texas will open doors to those cities as well, and you may very well end up at the same place NYU would take you for $100k+ more

User avatar
bilbobaggins
Posts: 686
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:41 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby bilbobaggins » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:53 pm

r6_philly wrote:
re-applicant wrote:
r6_philly wrote:Those can't be your only choices?


I'm in waitlist/hold/deferral/reserve situations with four other top 10 schools--one of each, actually.


Really :(

I'd try leverage your other 2 choices into a full scholly at UT when you visit. If not I would go with NYU at sticker. It seem way safer than Berkeley at sticker. NYC generally is thought to be an easy market and you will need the biglaw job to pay back your loans. Since you have connection back in the Bay, it's not impossible to get back.


This simply is not correct. Boalt students who want to go to NY or DC Biglaw do not have a difficult time getting jobs with decent grades. The SF market is much tougher.

I turned down the same UT scholarship to go to Boalt and I haven't even thought about the decision since.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby r6_philly » Wed Feb 02, 2011 1:54 pm

bilbobaggins wrote:
This simply is not correct. Boalt students who want to go to NY or DC Biglaw do not have a difficult time getting jobs with decent grades. The SF market is much tougher.

I turned down the same UT scholarship to go to Boalt and I haven't even thought about the decision since.


I mean it's safer because we don't know what the sticker is going to be. If it goes to above 50-55k ...

I wasn't implying employment prospects because no one knows for sure.

User avatar
bilbobaggins
Posts: 686
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:41 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby bilbobaggins » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:49 pm

r6_philly wrote:
bilbobaggins wrote:
This simply is not correct. Boalt students who want to go to NY or DC Biglaw do not have a difficult time getting jobs with decent grades. The SF market is much tougher.

I turned down the same UT scholarship to go to Boalt and I haven't even thought about the decision since.


I mean it's safer because we don't know what the sticker is going to be. If it goes to above 50-55k ...

I wasn't implying employment prospects because no one knows for sure.


I really doubt Berkeley will be more than NYU COL. It may end up equivalent.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby r6_philly » Wed Feb 02, 2011 2:51 pm

bilbobaggins wrote:
I really doubt Berkeley will be more than NYU COL. It may end up equivalent.


I hope you are right. But the new gov is scary so you never know. NYU's tuition seems a little safer.

User avatar
bilbobaggins
Posts: 686
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2008 3:41 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby bilbobaggins » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:25 pm

r6_philly wrote:
bilbobaggins wrote:
I really doubt Berkeley will be more than NYU COL. It may end up equivalent.


I hope you are right. But the new gov is scary so you never know. NYU's tuition seems a little safer.


Dude, you're on every Berkeley thread. Surely you've read the discussion that directly refutes what you seem to imply: that Brown's budget cuts will hurt Boalt.

A very small percentage of Boalt's budget is from the state. There's basically nothing left to cut. Therefore, Brown's cuts cannot affect Boalt in a major way.

I know this might be tough, but here's a thought: If you don't know what you're talking about, how about you don't say anything either way? Or maybe put a dislaimer like this one: This is 100% bullshit conjecture.

r6_philly
Posts: 10707
Joined: Sat Dec 19, 2009 4:32 pm

Re: UT (93k) vs NYU vs Berkeley

Postby r6_philly » Wed Feb 02, 2011 3:47 pm

bilbobaggins wrote:
Dude, you're on every Berkeley thread. Surely you've read the discussion that directly refutes what you seem to imply: that Brown's budget cuts will hurt Boalt.

A very small percentage of Boalt's budget is from the state. There's basically nothing left to cut. Therefore, Brown's cuts cannot affect Boalt in a major way.

I know this might be tough, but here's a thought: If you don't know what you're talking about, how about you don't say anything either way? Or maybe put a dislaimer like this one: This is 100% bullshit conjecture.


There is nothing but conjecture. If you want to post a general budget PDF of Boalt I will gladly read it. If you want to point me to an official document saying tuition will not increase or will be capped please do so then I can stop not knowing what I am talking about.

I have no interest in arguing with you because you are full of hot air and short on any sort of manners. You act like a kid with a tantrum.

You are really doing Boalt a disservice. So I don't know what your intention is but it is really not helping the school.




Return to “Choosing a Law School”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 4 guests