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That is what I understood.
Regarding bar passage rates: USNews & you are correct as I transposed the employment stats with the school's nine month employment stats.

Then Pittsburgh must be a fairly insular market. Thanks for the info.

My impression was & is quite good regarding Pitt, but quite different regarding Duquesne based on USNews rankings & a few Duquesne grads that I know.

CanadianWolf wrote:pjo: Do you think that Duquesne (a tier four law school with well below average bar pass rates) is on par with Pitt for recruiting/legal employment in the Pittsburgh area ? Thanks !

P.S. I just reread your post above. Your comparison & equal footing of Wash & Lee law review students with Duquesne law review students is interesting, although a bit difficult to embrace. W&L is a tier one law school & Duquesne is a poorly performing tier four.

Listen I understand it is difficult to fathom but seriously that is just how insular Pittsburgh is. I'm not going to fight you on this because it has no bearing really on OP's decision other than demonstrating how insualr the market is. If you don;t want to take my word for it just look for yourself. Go to the websites of some of the bigger firms in Pittsburgh and look at the directory. Most are from Pitt (probably 65%) but then an astonshigly large amount are also from Duquesne (probably 25%) and a few T14 plus ND grads are sprinkled in between. I would suprised if you were able to find more than 15 W&L grads at all the bigger firms combined. And btw, Duquesne's bar passage rate for 2007-2009 was an average of about 97.5% pass. I don't know what it was for 2010.

Not disagreeing with you. I thought Wash & Lee would be an unwise choice versus Pitt from the beginning, but then another poster injected Duquesne into the thread & I was & remain astonished. I suspect that successful placement at Duquesne drops off dramatically beyond the top ranked students & that the degree is not portable beyond the nearby area.

pjo wrote: I would suprised if you were able to find more than 15 W&L grads at all the bigger firms combined. And btw, Duquesne's bar passage rate for 2007-2009 was an average of about 97.5% pass. I don't know what it was for 2010.

Here's the thing about that though, do you know how many Pitt natives have gone to W&L or how many people who initially planned to target Pittsburgh followed through on that intention?

I know of one 3L at my school who was a Pitt native and targeted Pittsburgh. He had good grades, and did fine with regards to finding firm work there. I'm almost positive, that he is the only grad of our school at his firm.

In my experience, pretty much every firm I applied to out of state, including in my home state, had 0 grads from my school. That doesn't mean it's an untenable position to say that a graduate of that school can get a job in that market. Like my school, W&L is a good enough school that having that name on your resume isn't going to hold you back. If you have the connections, or can manufacture some other hook to make you a viable candidate in a market, chasing a full ride at a respectable school nearby won't hurt you imo.

Sure, but in the context of the OP's question W&L is not a better choice than Pitt even with more scholarship money because Pittsburgh firms recruit at Pitt but maybe not, or maybe very little, at W&L.
Nobody is arguing that a Wash & Lee law degree locks one out of the Pitt market.

CanadianWolf wrote:Sure, but in the context of the OP's question W&L is not a better choice than Pitt even with more scholarship money because Pittsburgh firms recruit at Pitt but maybe not, or maybe very little, at W&L.
Nobody is arguing that a Wash & Lee law degree locks one out of the Pitt market.

They don't have to recruit at W&L. OP just has to apply to them. IMO and from my experience, if he is a native and or sufficiently explains why Pittsburgh, he'll at least be looked at like a similarly situated Pitt student.

Aqualibrium wrote:

CanadianWolf wrote:Sure, but in the context of the OP's question W&L is not a better choice than Pitt even with more scholarship money because Pittsburgh firms recruit at Pitt but maybe not, or maybe very little, at W&L.
Nobody is arguing that a Wash & Lee law degree locks one out of the Pitt market.

They don't have to recruit at W&L. OP just has to apply to them. IMO and from my experience, if he is a native and or sufficiently explains why Pittsburgh, he'll at least be looked at like a similarly situated Pitt student.

No he won't. I'm telling you, it takes time to interview kids at Bigfirms. Time=money and firms don't waste their time interviewing just anyone. When you already have a plethora of local kids who were on LR and also a good amount of T14 kids applying why would you look to the middle (like W&L)? Someone from W&L will get looks from small and midlaw firms but Biglaw PITTSBURGH firms will take T14 and/or Case/Pitt LR kids before they take comparable W&L students.

I vote Pitt for OP...def try to get some more money though.

Go to Pitt, learn to golf, and hang out at country clubs often. You will be fine.

i just dont understand why someone would sacrifice employability to trying to get hired in the market.
Cornell employability is prob 40% biglaw/midlaw/
Upitt is prob 10%.
Yes it might be harder to a pittsburgh job from cornell, but it is a lot easier to get a job period from cornell.

I go to Pitt.

1. Dusquene DOES have recognition here. Not as much as Pitt does, but it certainly does provide at least some competition. A lot of the local judges graduated from there.

2. If you want to come here 100% I would negotiate your fullride into more $ at Pitt and go to Pitt. Solid school and I am currently enjoying everything about the city and professors overall (though the public transportation system is horrid).

3. The market is rough right now and not many new jobs are opening up. We recently had a career panel which started off with the attorneys saying to look for other possible work, it was depressing. There are a decent amount of midlaw firms here, but because of the lack of biglaw and the concentrated area there is fierce competition for those jobs.

If you have any other questions about Pitt you can PM me and I'll answer what I can. Best of luck.

Anecdotal evidence:

I had an alumni interview with a Vanderbilt law grad who was originally from Pittsburgh, and went to college there as well. She said that in pretty much EVERY interview she had with Pittsburgh firms, they asked her why she didn't go to Duquesne or Pitt. She ended up not getting a Pittsburgh firm job, and is working Biglaw in another market.

Take it for what it's worth.

Go Panthers!

BarbellDreams wrote:I go to Pitt.

1. Dusquene DOES have recognition here. Not as much as Pitt does, but it certainly does provide at least some competition. A lot of the local judges graduated from there.

2. If you want to come here 100% I would negotiate your fullride into more $ at Pitt and go to Pitt. Solid school and I am currently enjoying everything about the city and professors overall (though the public transportation system is horrid).

3. The market is rough right now and not many new jobs are opening up. We recently had a career panel which started off with the attorneys saying to look for other possible work, it was depressing. There are a decent amount of midlaw firms here, but because of the lack of biglaw and the concentrated area there is fierce competition for those jobs.

If you have any other questions about Pitt you can PM me and I'll answer what I can. Best of luck.

When they said to look for other possible work did they mean other markets or alternative types of legal work (PI/Gov/Doc Review etc)?

pjo wrote:

BarbellDreams wrote:I go to Pitt.

1. Dusquene DOES have recognition here. Not as much as Pitt does, but it certainly does provide at least some competition. A lot of the local judges graduated from there.

2. If you want to come here 100% I would negotiate your fullride into more $ at Pitt and go to Pitt. Solid school and I am currently enjoying everything about the city and professors overall (though the public transportation system is horrid).

3. The market is rough right now and not many new jobs are opening up. We recently had a career panel which started off with the attorneys saying to look for other possible work, it was depressing. There are a decent amount of midlaw firms here, but because of the lack of biglaw and the concentrated area there is fierce competition for those jobs.

If you have any other questions about Pitt you can PM me and I'll answer what I can. Best of luck.

When they said to look for other possible work did they mean other markets or alternative types of legal work (PI/Gov/Doc Review etc)?

I wish they meant PI/Gov/Doc Review. They were talking about temp work, Paralegal positions with hope of become an associate, and nonprofits for 25k/year.

BarbellDreams wrote: I wish they meant PI/Gov/Doc Review. They were talking about temp work, Paralegal positions with hope of become an associate, and nonprofits for 25k/year.

Ehh, from my experience I think if you’re willing to work for that little of wages you could convince a small firm to take you on as an entry level associate. There’s a ton of small firms in the surrounding counties that start out around 35-40k/yr. It’s not great but at least you get to practice as a lawyer. Still though, the fact that a statement like that came right from the “horse’s mouth” is crazy.

pjo wrote:

BarbellDreams wrote: I wish they meant PI/Gov/Doc Review. They were talking about temp work, Paralegal positions with hope of become an associate, and nonprofits for 25k/year.

Ehh, from my experience I think if you’re willing to work for that little of wages you could convince a small firm to take you on as an entry level associate. There’s a ton of small firms in the surrounding counties that start out around 35-40k/yr. It’s not great but at least you get to practice as a lawyer. Still though, the fact that a statement like that came right from the “horse’s mouth” is crazy.

So you're a practicing attorney or someone who has looked for a legal job in the past year?

Aqualibrium wrote:

pjo wrote:

BarbellDreams wrote: I wish they meant PI/Gov/Doc Review. They were talking about temp work, Paralegal positions with hope of become an associate, and nonprofits for 25k/year.

Ehh, from my experience I think if you’re willing to work for that little of wages you could convince a small firm to take you on as an entry level associate. There’s a ton of small firms in the surrounding counties that start out around 35-40k/yr. It’s not great but at least you get to practice as a lawyer. Still though, the fact that a statement like that came right from the “horse’s mouth” is crazy.

So you're a practicing attorney or someone who has looked for a legal job in the past year?

Yes. I have worked at two law firms in the past four years, although not as an atty. Still, at both firms I was in a position to see the hiring style as far as what certain firms look for in potential new hires in this region.

go steelers

pjo wrote: Yes. I have worked at two law firms in the past four years, although not as an atty. Still, at both firms I was in a position to see the hiring style as far as what certain firms look for in potential new hires in this region.

Just wondering. Your posts lead me to believe you were an applicant, and most applicants don't have that type of experience.