Sticker at W&Lee

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Dr. Strangelove
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Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:46 pm

So I was recently waitlisted at W&Lee. Given the school's small size and location-this is probably one of my top choices outside of the T14. (Purely in terms of law school environment)
Also W&Lee's employment statistics seem to indicate that a fairly large portion of the school's students go to BigLaw and end up with the $160K+ job.
Given my situation.. if I really want to go to law school after college and got off W&Lee's waitlist.
Would sticker at W&Lee be worth it or not?

I have another strong non-law school option..one with greater financial security and a pretty good salary...just not the $160K I could possibly get after law school. It's an option I really like too.

I already posted about this in another thread..but I think I'd take an LSAT prep class and then take the LSAT a third time..hoping to break 165. [Got the same score both times.. :| )

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Flustercluck
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Flustercluck » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:51 pm

Dr. Strangelove wrote: Also W&Lee's employment statistics seem to indicate that a fairly large portion of the school's students go to BigLaw and end up with the $160K+ job.


Might want to look into this
--LinkRemoved--

*also, they ranked only 36th in NLJ250 hiring at 19.3% of the class, which is not a fairly large portion, per se.
Last edited by Flustercluck on Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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gov
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby gov » Fri Jan 28, 2011 3:53 pm

Dr. Strangelove wrote:So I was recently waitlisted at W&Lee. Given the school's small size and location-this is probably one of my top choices outside of the T14. (Purely in terms of law school environment)
Also W&Lee's employment statistics seem to indicate that a fairly large portion of the school's students go to BigLaw and end up with the $160K+ job.
Given my situation.. if I really want to go to law school after college and got off W&Lee's waitlist.
Would sticker at W&Lee be worth it or not?

I have another strong non-law school option..one with greater financial security and a pretty good salary...just not the $160K I could possibly get after law school. It's an option I really like too.

I already posted about this in another thread..but I think I'd take an LSAT prep class and then take the LSAT a third time..hoping to break 165. [Got the same score both times.. :| )


I was accepted and they said a big pack of info is on the way with employment info. They also gave us a link :http://law.wlu.edu/careerstats

I am in a similar position [but accepted at W&L). Currently on hold at NU and I would love to go there. If i don't get in, I may just retake and take they year off.

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Stonewall
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Stonewall » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:34 am

Flustercluck wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote: Also W&Lee's employment statistics seem to indicate that a fairly large portion of the school's students go to BigLaw and end up with the $160K+ job.


Might want to look into this
--LinkRemoved--

*also, they ranked only 36th in NLJ250 hiring at 19.3% of the class, which is not a fairly large portion, per se.



that LST file is from 2008. I don't know why people think that site is so helpful, it seems to me they just regurgitate the same statistics schools put out which are bs to begin with. Am I missing something here?

Aqualibrium
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:51 am

Stonewall wrote:
Flustercluck wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote: Also W&Lee's employment statistics seem to indicate that a fairly large portion of the school's students go to BigLaw and end up with the $160K+ job.


Might want to look into this
--LinkRemoved--

*also, they ranked only 36th in NLJ250 hiring at 19.3% of the class, which is not a fairly large portion, per se.



that LST file is from 2008. I don't know why people think that site is so helpful, it seems to me they just regurgitate the same statistics schools put out which are bs to begin with. Am I missing something here?


LST indicates that only 15-20% of W&L grads were getting the top paying biglaw jobs, and only about 40% were making 100k or more. The economy is bad, everyone's placement numbers are worse. Knowing a school's placement numbers during the boom times gives you a good indicator of what the absolute ceiling is/was, and allows you to at least estimate that the current number is somewhere below there.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't think that is helpful.

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Stonewall
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Stonewall » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:59 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
Stonewall wrote:
Flustercluck wrote:
Dr. Strangelove wrote: Also W&Lee's employment statistics seem to indicate that a fairly large portion of the school's students go to BigLaw and end up with the $160K+ job.


Might want to look into this
--LinkRemoved--

*also, they ranked only 36th in NLJ250 hiring at 19.3% of the class, which is not a fairly large portion, per se.



that LST file is from 2008. I don't know why people think that site is so helpful, it seems to me they just regurgitate the same statistics schools put out which are bs to begin with. Am I missing something here?


LST indicates that only 15-20% of W&L grads were getting the top paying biglaw jobs, and only about 40% were making 100k or more. The economy is bad, everyone's placement numbers are worse. Knowing a school's placement numbers during the boom times gives you a good indicator of what the absolute ceiling is/was, and allows you to at least estimate that the current number is somewhere below there.

I'm not sure why you wouldn't think that is helpful.


sure its good to know what the absolute best someone could have done coming out of W&L during boom times to a certain degree. but my point is that being left to guestimate exactly what a prospective student would be getting themselves into is trivial at best and this website does not aid in really presenting any added truth. this is just what i takeaway from it.

Aqualibrium
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Aqualibrium » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:10 am

Stonewall wrote:
sure its good to know what the absolute best someone could have done coming out of W&L during boom times to a certain degree. but my point is that being left to guestimate exactly what a prospective student would be getting themselves into is trivial at best and this website does not aid in really presenting any added truth. this is just what i takeaway from it.


The truth is, ite, less than 15 % of W&L grads are getting biglaw, and less than 40% are getting jobs paying 100k. More than 10% are unemployed.

It's not much, but It's as good as we have...

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soullesswonder
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby soullesswonder » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:18 am

Aqualibrium wrote:
Stonewall wrote:
sure its good to know what the absolute best someone could have done coming out of W&L during boom times to a certain degree. but my point is that being left to guestimate exactly what a prospective student would be getting themselves into is trivial at best and this website does not aid in really presenting any added truth. this is just what i takeaway from it.


The truth is, ite, less than 15 % of W&L grads are getting biglaw, and less than 40% are getting jobs paying 100k. More than 10% are unemployed.

It's not much, but It's as good as we have...


This. Anyone who really wants to debate placement should probably keep their powder dry until the new NLJ 250 placement rates come out in the next 2-3 weeks.

Meanwhile, I am quite confident in saying this...
Dr. Strangelove wrote:Also W&Lee's employment statistics seem to indicate that a fairly large portion of the school's students go to BigLaw and end up with the $160K+ job.


is not true

BlueDiamond
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby BlueDiamond » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:21 am

soullesswonder wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
Stonewall wrote:
sure its good to know what the absolute best someone could have done coming out of W&L during boom times to a certain degree. but my point is that being left to guestimate exactly what a prospective student would be getting themselves into is trivial at best and this website does not aid in really presenting any added truth. this is just what i takeaway from it.


The truth is, ite, less than 15 % of W&L grads are getting biglaw, and less than 40% are getting jobs paying 100k. More than 10% are unemployed.

It's not much, but It's as good as we have...


This. Anyone who really wants to debate placement should probably keep their powder dry until the new NLJ 250 placement rates come out in the next 2-3 weeks.

Meanwhile, I am quite confident in saying this...
Dr. Strangelove wrote:Also W&Lee's employment statistics seem to indicate that a fairly large portion of the school's students go to BigLaw and end up with the $160K+ job.


is not true


is there a set date thats coming out? the NLJ250 placement list

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soullesswonder
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby soullesswonder » Sat Jan 29, 2011 2:23 am

BlueDiamond wrote:
soullesswonder wrote:
Aqualibrium wrote:
Stonewall wrote:
sure its good to know what the absolute best someone could have done coming out of W&L during boom times to a certain degree. but my point is that being left to guestimate exactly what a prospective student would be getting themselves into is trivial at best and this website does not aid in really presenting any added truth. this is just what i takeaway from it.


The truth is, ite, less than 15 % of W&L grads are getting biglaw, and less than 40% are getting jobs paying 100k. More than 10% are unemployed.

It's not much, but It's as good as we have...


This. Anyone who really wants to debate placement should probably keep their powder dry until the new NLJ 250 placement rates come out in the next 2-3 weeks.

Meanwhile, I am quite confident in saying this...
Dr. Strangelove wrote:Also W&Lee's employment statistics seem to indicate that a fairly large portion of the school's students go to BigLaw and end up with the $160K+ job.


is not true


is there a set date thats coming out? the NLJ250 placement list


The "Go-To" schools list with NLJ250 placement of the top fifty schools comes out every February...last year the final version came out around February 22nd. So no, no set date per se.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby CanadianWolf » Sat Jan 29, 2011 11:52 am

Wash & Lee is a very distinctive law school in a gorgeous setting. Whether or not paying the full cost of $180,000 over three years is "worth it" depends upon your priorities. For example, if you are expecting to secure a biglaw position starting at $160,000 plus bonus after 3 years at W&L, then your expectations may be somewhat unreasonable. But if you are willing to shoulder the cost burden & just expect gainful employment as an attorney after law school, then W&L can be appealing for those seeking a small school Southern fraternity type atmosphere during law school. Lots of state court clerking positions are obtained by W&L law grads in Virginia.

If, however, the recent Ohio Supreme Court decision denying bar C&F clearance to a law grad with unmanageable student loan debt spreads beyond that state's boundaries (as I believe it should in order to curb an over supply of lawyers & law schools as well as to curb tuition increases) then you should only attend a much less costly option.

To answer your question as to whether or not Wash & Lee is worth attending at full cost: It depends upon what you think that you are buying for $180,000 plus three years of your time & effort.

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Law Sauce
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Law Sauce » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:29 pm

CanadianWolf wrote:If, however, the recent Ohio Supreme Court decision denying bar C&F clearance to a law grad with unmanageable student loan debt spreads beyond that state's boundaries (as I believe it should in order to curb an over supply of lawyers & law schools as well as to curb tuition increases) then you should only attend a much less costly option.


What is this? I'm interested. Link please.

CanadianWolf
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby CanadianWolf » Mon Jan 31, 2011 12:32 pm

The search function on TLS should help. Sorry I don't have the citation.

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Dr. Strangelove
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Mon Feb 07, 2011 11:44 pm

Even though only a small percentage of W&L law students get super high-paying jobs..the environment of this school is very appealing to me.
I might go to W&L Law over the masters of accounting program at Rutgers if I get off the waitlist.

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Dr. Strangelove
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:48 am

Here's a question.
Where would I need to be ranked in W&L's class in order to have a decent chance at the following...
1.) Biglaw in DC?
2.) Biglaw in NY?
3.) Biglaw in North Florida? [Jacksonville in particular]
4.) Biglaw in VA? [Probably Northern Virginia or Richmond]
5.) Clerking at the state level [Probably in VA or NY]
6.) Clerking at the federal level
7.) To become a law professor [but I'm assuming #6 is practically required for this..]

ran12
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby ran12 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 12:50 am

Dr. Strangelove wrote:Here's a question.
Where would I need to be ranked in W&L's class in order to have a decent chance at the following...
1.) Biglaw in DC?
2.) Biglaw in NY?
3.) Biglaw in North Florida? [Jacksonville in particular]
4.) Biglaw in VA? [Probably Northern Virginia or Richmond]
5.) Clerking at the state level [Probably in VA or NY]
6.) Clerking at the federal level
7.) To become a law professor [but I'm assuming #6 is practically required for this..]


You most likely won't get the right answer on here. Prob have to do some research.

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FlanAl
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby FlanAl » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:09 am

one thing about w&l is that they used to be way higher up in the rankings and it doesn't seem like their placement has been too negatively effected by their fall. also there are random w&l alumni peppered around the country. i know of one socal midlaw firm (around 80 attorneys) that was founded by a w&l guy in the 80s and he actively tries to hire w&l grads. i'm sure there are more firms like this in the south.

Autoaccept
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Autoaccept » Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:53 pm

Is it stupid if I think of 20% chance at "big law" as being pretty good? (I've always done well at school, so I don't see top 20% as being completely out of the question)

When people say the only "safe bet" for big law are HYS, do they mean that you can go there, be an average student (relatively), and still get those jobs?

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Flustercluck
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Flustercluck » Thu Feb 10, 2011 2:18 pm

Autoaccept wrote:Is it stupid if I think of 20% chance at "big law" as being pretty good? (I've always done well at school, so I don't see top 20% as being completely out of the question)

When people say the only "safe bet" for big law are HYS, do they mean that you can go there, be an average student (relatively), and still get those jobs?


Yes, it's stupid... Everyone who gets in to a given law school thinks this. 1/5 of them are right. If you can't do that math, I'm surprised you did as well as you claim in school.

Is it completely out of the the question? No.

Is it a very minimal chance compared to some higher ranked schools? Yes.

When you are figuring something like this out, no matter how special you may think you are, assume you will be at median because that's the most likely outcome, and plan accordingly

*And even if you want to assume you may be more talented/a harder workers, one would at least be more accurate in assuming this of those who warranted some $$$ coming in, since you're probably pretty much average at a given school if you're paying sticker.

And yes, HYS is the only tier where median is pretty safe for BigLaw. Not saying you can't get biglaw at median in other schools, but the liklihood is far less...

Autoaccept
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Autoaccept » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:32 pm

I don't think I'm special, but why do anything expecting to be average? Should I not go into law school believing that I have some sort of influence over my relative performance?

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gov
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby gov » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:36 pm

Autoaccept wrote:I don't think I'm special, but why do anything expecting to be average? Should I not go into law school believing that I have some sort of influence over my relative performance?


I think the main point is that you should always go into something thinking you will be great. However, many people on this site assume that they will be in the top 5-10% because that is where they have always been. It is ok to aim for that and work your ass of to achieve it, but it isn't sensible to be 100% confident thats where you will be.

That is why a school like this may be risky. If only the top 20% are offered big law, and you do not have a scholarship, the risk may outweigh the potential benefits. This is why no one can answer if a school is worth sticker for someone else...if you "know" you can be in the top 20%, then by all means go for it. But if you ask this question on a site like this, people are going to be very honest.

r6_philly
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby r6_philly » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:38 pm

Autoaccept wrote:I don't think I'm special, but why do anything expecting to be average? Should I not go into law school believing that I have some sort of influence over my relative performance?


Because the most statistically relevant probability predictions are based on medians/means.

Autoaccept
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Autoaccept » Thu Feb 10, 2011 3:45 pm

Well I am getting a good scholarship at W&L, but I was just popping in to ask that question. I hear what you all are saying. I'm going to go ahead and just plan on being a hard worker and hopefully a little smarter than most at my school. If it doesn't work out you can laugh at my posts on JDunderground in a few years.

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Dr. Strangelove
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby Dr. Strangelove » Thu Feb 10, 2011 5:54 pm

Meh..undergraduate performance is a decent predictor but there are some flaws.
I wouldn't go into W&L thinking that you're going to kick ass just because you got a scholarship.
Even if I do get in, I'd probably not get a scholarship..but I'm one of those guys who almost failed out of college my freshman year who finally got their shit together...so who knows what will happen?

ran12
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Re: Sticker at W&Lee

Postby ran12 » Thu Feb 10, 2011 6:07 pm

Whatever law school you go to, you have to go in with the mentality you'll be top 5-10% by working your ass off. If you don't go in with that mentality, there's no way it'll happen and not likely you'll be a good lawyer. The best lawyers always aim for the top even if it's not realistic based on probabilities.




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