Canadian Law School vs. United States Law School Forum

[applepiecrust]

Oh my god, this makes me wish I had applied to Canadian law schools instead! Especially since I am neither a US citizen/resident nor a Canadian citizen/resident, and I do speak some French.

AHHHH!

[bdeans91]

OLSAS system of grade conversion is superior to the LSAC conversion method because Canada does not unfairly punish students for attending undergraduate universities whose highest letter grade is an "A" and not an "A+"; accordingly, those attending undergraduate institutions that award "A+" grades are not able to get an OLSAS grade conversion of higher than 4.0--unlike the American LSDAS system in which one can achieve an LSDAS GPA of up to 4.33.
Regardless of grading system used by one's undergraduate university or college, both can achieve OLSAS' highest GPA of 4.0. This is fairer than the US' LSDAS system in which most students cannot ever achieve a conversion GPA exceeding 4.0 simply because of the undergraduate school attended while others get a potential bonus of converting their GPAs to as high as 4.3 simply because their college or university offers "A+" grades.

Yes but this sucks for the following reasons:

Friend at McGill gets 85+ (they don't have A+'s), and he gets a 4.0, getting above 90 is not important.

I get 85-89, I only get a 3.90...

Where before I had an advantage. You can see how this is frustrating. Obviously in my position I don't care about fairness I care about the higher GPA

[bdeans91]

I know we have discussed practicing in the U.S.A. with a Canadian law degree. Can anyone speak to the practice of Canadian or American law in London with a Canadian law degree?

[CanadianWolf]

I understand your point, however, McGill--due to its reputation for hard grading--may not be the best example.

[Trequartista]

. Basically, are job prospects for the US better from U of T, the best law school in Canada, or a mid-tier US school, say GW or BU?

I don't think U of T has ever placed more than twenty percent of its class in NYC biglaw. BU used to place 30-40% in Biglaw pre-recession.

[bdeans91]

. Basically, are job prospects for the US better from U of T, the best law school in Canada, or a mid-tier US school, say GW or BU?

I don't think U of T has ever placed more than twenty percent of its class in NYC biglaw. BU used to place 30-40% in Biglaw pre-recession.

This statistic is probably meaningless. BU people, for BigLaw, have no option but US BigLaw. I am sure a lot of Toronto people CHOOSE Canadian BigLaw instead of NYC. I know I probably would/might.

[Trequartista]

. Basically, are job prospects for the US better from U of T, the best law school in Canada, or a mid-tier US school, say GW or BU?

I don't think U of T has ever placed more than twenty percent of its class in NYC biglaw. BU used to place 30-40% in Biglaw pre-recession.

This statistic is probably meaningless. BU people, for BigLaw, have no option but US BigLaw. I am sure a lot of Toronto people CHOOSE Canadian BigLaw instead of NYC. I know I probably would/might.

Leemh87 was talking about job prospects in US for U of T.

Besides, given the small number of firms that participate, I doubt that there are many more students who could go to NYC if they wanted to.

[bdeans91]

. Basically, are job prospects for the US better from U of T, the best law school in Canada, or a mid-tier US school, say GW or BU?

I don't think U of T has ever placed more than twenty percent of its class in NYC biglaw. BU used to place 30-40% in Biglaw pre-recession.

This statistic is probably meaningless. BU people, for BigLaw, have no option but US BigLaw. I am sure a lot of Toronto people CHOOSE Canadian BigLaw instead of NYC. I know I probably would/might.

Leemh87 was talking about job prospects in US for U of T.

Besides, given the small number of firms that participate, I doubt that there are many more students who could go to NYC if they wanted to.

Yeah if you are sure you want to go to the US, U of T obviously isn't the greatest option. I am sure there are some well located law schools that are not t14 that would place well. BU is probably one of these.

[Aqualibrium]

I understand your point, however, McGill--due to its reputation for hard grading--may not be the best example.

Hard grading, harder drinking!

[bdeans91]

I understand your point, however, McGill--due to its reputation for hard grading--may not be the best example.

Hard grading, harder drinking!

LOL aside from one person, everyone I know from McGill (which is like 30 people) rarely study and go out 4-5 days a week... I know one person with a GPA above 3.3

[Aqualibrium]

I understand your point, however, McGill--due to its reputation for hard grading--may not be the best example.

Hard grading, harder drinking!

LOL aside from one person, everyone I know from McGill (which is like 30 people) rarely study and go out 4-5 days a week... I know one person with a GPA above 3.3

My gf tells stories of her and her friends going out and drinking all the time at all sorts of clubs, bars, restaurants, strip clubs lol. She also told me a lot about the epic school sponsored boozer that is freshman orientation week. She managed to escape with a 3.7, which is ridiculous for someone at "the Harvard of Canada," that's what she tells me anyway. I don't really understand the grading outside what she tells me.

[Trequartista]

I understand that over half of U of T grads get jobs at the Bay street firms with 10-15% heading to New York.

The U of T website lists most of the other students as accepting Government Jobs or Clerkships. How much do these pay? How competitive are clerkships and do they carry the same prestige as in the US?

And what kind of a job is someone in the bottom quarter looking at?

[viking138]

I would just note that "ridiculous billable hours" is a bit of an overstatement. 2200 billable hours, assuming you aren't gchatting and surfing the internet much at work, ends up being about a 55-60 hour week. Totally manageable, especially if you take a bit of work home for the weekends. Not that bad for $160k/year + $10-20k bonus (although bonus was more around 7-10k this year for most firms).

[bdeans91]

I would just note that "ridiculous billable hours" is a bit of an overstatement. 2200 billable hours, assuming you aren't gchatting and surfing the internet much at work, ends up being about a 55-60 hour week. Totally manageable, especially if you take a bit of work home for the weekends. Not that bad for $160k/year + $10-20k bonus (although bonus was more around 7-10k this year for most firms).

I have heard so much about 70 and 80 hour work weeks, though. And people talking about the struggle of billing 2200..? Strange.

[viking138]

I would just note that "ridiculous billable hours" is a bit of an overstatement. 2200 billable hours, assuming you aren't gchatting and surfing the internet much at work, ends up being about a 55-60 hour week. Totally manageable, especially if you take a bit of work home for the weekends. Not that bad for $160k/year + $10-20k bonus (although bonus was more around 7-10k this year for most firms).

I have heard so much about 70 and 80 hour work weeks, though. And people talking about the struggle of billing 2200..? Strange.

It's not like there aren't some firms where you do work 70-80 hours a week (Wachtell springs to mind). Or if you're super gunning and billing 3500 hours you would work more. But I've talked to a lot of corporate lawyers at V10 firms--not in interviews but in chats over coffee--where they've noted that the 70-80 hours a week thing is a myth. There are weeks where people definitely work more because of work load, but there are weeks where they work less than 50 as well.

Think about people in undergrad. They talk about how much they studied but if you saw their study time, how much of the hours in the library or "working" would be filled with facebook, gchat, etc.? If you're efficient, you can definitely work less than 70 hours a week.

[polyester]

It sort of depends on what you want to do and where you want to be for your career. Yes, it's easier to transfer from Canada to the US, but if you're really aiming at working in NYC or something like that, I wouldn't recommend U of T necessarily. On the other hand, if you're leaning towards Canada, going to U of T may be a better option. Law in Canada is still high stress, though, so I don't know if the quality of life (in terms of stress) would be all that different at Bay street VS NYC law firm.

Anecdotally, I am a Canadian citizen that got into U of T & Osgoode, but will be going to Columbia law. I want to work in the US (mainly NYC), and I can't deny that the Columbia prestige factor didn't sway me. Again, this may not be the right decision for everyone so you really should know your priorities. It seemed as if it'd be easier to work in NYC if I went to Columbia, especially because there are differences in US and Can law. I also used to live in the states for a while when I was young, so I do have an affinity for the States, and I always assumed I'd work in the states when I got older. But this may not be you.

In addressing the GPA & LSAT issue, even though everyone said that GPAs matter more in Canada, I didn't necessarily get that impression. My GPA was a little lower than I would've liked (U of T undergrad, so maybe this augmented my GPA, who knows), but I had a high LSAT, and so the GPA didn't seem to be a problem. On the other hand, you can't get into a T14 with a 160-165 LSAT whereas with your GPA, you could get into some of the law schools in Canada (though not U of T) with that LSAT. So generally, in both countries, LSATs seem to matter more than GPAs though the US cares more about LSAT scores than Canada does.

Like what many other people on this thread have said already, I recommend writing the LSAT before making a real decision. Taking a logic course may help, but it may not necessarily correlate highly with the actual LSAT. Getting a 165 VS a 175 would make a world of a difference in terms of which law schools would accept you. I would've chosen U of T or Osgoode over a T14 US law school if it wasn't HYS/CCN. It didn't seem worth it to me because of the high tuition costs etc.

[bdeans91]

For me it ultimately comes down to three options:

1) If I want to stay in Canada, Canadian LS

2) If I want to go to US, get into a t-14

3) If I want to go to US but can't get into t-14, then Canadian LS and not getting hopes up

The toughest decision is where you want to live, but I'm definitely leaning towards Canada. The grass always seems greener on the other side but it's pretty nice up here.

[niederbomb]

How about U.S. citizens going to Canadian law schools? I got rejected from U of T but accepted at UBC. I didn't know enough about Osgoode and so didn't apply.

I am not sure U.S. Big Law would be a great fit for my personality, interests, or goals.

I got into one of MVP with 170, 3.9, but the tuition scares me. My goal is to work in a specialist/boutique firm related to international trade in a port city and then later transition to in-house at a corporation with operations in China/Hong Kong. I think Vancouver might be a good place to do this.

It seems like in the U.S., you either work in Big Law, or you risk making no more than you could straight out of UG (25% Big Law, 55%=shit law). Canadian cities seem to have more mid-sized firms paying in the $70-100K range, especially Vancouver.

Would I be crazy to pick UBC w/ $$ over MVP? Is it worth waiting another year to find out what went wrong at U of T and see if I can get in next cycle? My parents are poor and, hence, prestige whores, so this is also a concern.

I could practice in any of San Francisco, NYC, Toronto, or Vancouver. I am from the rural South USA, so almost anything would be an improvement.

CanadianWolf wrote:
OLSAS system of grade conversion is superior to the LSAC conversion method because Canada does not unfairly punish students for attending undergraduate universities whose highest letter grade is an "A" and not an "A+"; accordingly, those attending undergraduate institutions that award "A+" grades are not able to get an OLSAS grade conversion of higher than 4.0--unlike the American LSDAS system in which one can achieve an LSDAS GPA of up to 4.33.
Regardless of grading system used by one's undergraduate university or college, both can achieve OLSAS' highest GPA of 4.0. This is fairer than the US' LSDAS system in which most students cannot ever achieve a conversion GPA exceeding 4.0 simply because of the undergraduate school attended while others get a potential bonus of converting their GPAs to as high as 4.3 simply because their college or university offers "A+" grades.

Not always. According to OLSAS, a 4.0 at my university became a 3.9. I also did many extra community college classes/CLEP tests during university to help me graduate faster (in 3 years), and OLSAS didn't even count the credits, even though these were easy classes (Intro to Sociology) that are almost always A's regardless. This might be why U of T dinged me with a 3.8 (Olsas), 170.

The U.S. system of favoring LSAT over all is more fair IMO than one that can penalize you for a single choice you made at age 17 (perhaps because of $$$, especially in the U.S.), i.e. where to attend UG university.

[bdeans91]

Walked by the UBC Law Library, they are building new law facilities no idea when they will be done but looks modern and nice.

--LinkRemoved--

No idea when it'll be done though.

[serdog]

It scheduled to be finish for first day of classes 11/12

[snldude]

How about U.S. citizens going to Canadian law schools? I got rejected from U of T but accepted at UBC. I didn't know enough about Osgoode and so didn't apply.

I am not sure U.S. Big Law would be a great fit for my personality, interests, or goals.

I got into one of MVP with 170, 3.9, but the tuition scares me. My goal is to work in a specialist/boutique firm related to international trade in a port city and then later transition to in-house at a corporation with operations in China/Hong Kong. I think Vancouver might be a good place to do this.

It seems like in the U.S., you either work in Big Law, or you risk making no more than you could straight out of UG (25% Big Law, 55%=shit law). Canadian cities seem to have more mid-sized firms paying in the $70-100K range, especially Vancouver.

Would I be crazy to pick UBC w/ $$ over MVP? Is it worth waiting another year to find out what went wrong at U of T and see if I can get in next cycle? My parents are poor and, hence, prestige whores, so this is also a concern.

I could practice in any of San Francisco, NYC, Toronto, or Vancouver. I am from the rural South USA, so almost anything would be an improvement.

CanadianWolf wrote:
OLSAS system of grade conversion is superior to the LSAC conversion method because Canada does not unfairly punish students for attending undergraduate universities whose highest letter grade is an "A" and not an "A+"; accordingly, those attending undergraduate institutions that award "A+" grades are not able to get an OLSAS grade conversion of higher than 4.0--unlike the American LSDAS system in which one can achieve an LSDAS GPA of up to 4.33.
Regardless of grading system used by one's undergraduate university or college, both can achieve OLSAS' highest GPA of 4.0. This is fairer than the US' LSDAS system in which most students cannot ever achieve a conversion GPA exceeding 4.0 simply because of the undergraduate school attended while others get a potential bonus of converting their GPAs to as high as 4.3 simply because their college or university offers "A+" grades.

Not always. According to OLSAS, a 4.0 at my university became a 3.9. I also did many extra community college classes/CLEP tests during university to help me graduate faster (in 3 years), and OLSAS didn't even count the credits, even though these were easy classes (Intro to Sociology) that are almost always A's regardless. This might be why U of T dinged me with a 3.8 (Olsas), 170.

The U.S. system of favoring LSAT over all is more fair IMO than one that can penalize you for a single choice you made at age 17 (perhaps because of $$$, especially in the U.S.), i.e. where to attend UG university.

How do you know you got $$ at UBC? I thought they don't make their scholarship decisions until July.

[mikeman]

Lot of posters in this thread seem to make it sound easy to go from a Canadian law school to the U.S. However, I know anyone is allowed to write the NY bar, but how does that help in terms of getting jobs? U of T is an exception since they're actively recruited at OCIs.. but Osgoode (York) and everyone else? Heard very few firms came up to York (less than 5) there for interviews last cycle. Without that kind of active recruitment, isn't any non-U of T law school in Canada unlikely to lead to steady employment in the US? Why would any NY firm hire a Canadian grad when there are all those T14 guys out of work?

[Trequartista]

Lot of posters in this thread seem to make it sound easy to go from a Canadian law school to the U.S. However, I know anyone is allowed to write the NY bar, but how does that help in terms of getting jobs? U of T is an exception since they're actively recruited at OCIs.. but Osgoode (York) and everyone else? Heard very few firms came up to York (less than 5) there for interviews last cycle. Without that kind of active recruitment, isn't any non-U of T law school in Canada unlikely to lead to steady employment in the US? Why would any NY firm hire a Canadian grad when there are all those T14 guys out of work?

+1

[jeremysen]

Lot of posters in this thread seem to make it sound easy to go from a Canadian law school to the U.S. However, I know anyone is allowed to write the NY bar, but how does that help in terms of getting jobs? U of T is an exception since they're actively recruited at OCIs.. but Osgoode (York) and everyone else? Heard very few firms came up to York (less than 5) there for interviews last cycle. Without that kind of active recruitment, isn't any non-U of T law school in Canada unlikely to lead to steady employment in the US? Why would any NY firm hire a Canadian grad when there are all those T14 guys out of work?

+1

what aboot the diversity canadian students add to firms?

[Trequartista]

Lot of posters in this thread seem to make it sound easy to go from a Canadian law school to the U.S. However, I know anyone is allowed to write the NY bar, but how does that help in terms of getting jobs? U of T is an exception since they're actively recruited at OCIs.. but Osgoode (York) and everyone else? Heard very few firms came up to York (less than 5) there for interviews last cycle. Without that kind of active recruitment, isn't any non-U of T law school in Canada unlikely to lead to steady employment in the US? Why would any NY firm hire a Canadian grad when there are all those T14 guys out of work?

+1

what aboot the diversity canadian students add to firms?