Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

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Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Notre Dame 50% $75,000 debt
41
55%
IU-Indianapolis 100% $0 debt
33
45%
 
Total votes: 74

CanadianWolf
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby CanadianWolf » Thu Jan 27, 2011 3:38 pm

It will be interesting to see if Indiana-Bloomington wants to compete scholarship-wise with Indiana-Indianapolis.

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LSATWIZ
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby LSATWIZ » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:04 pm

If OP's question was IU: Bloomington, is there still a difference with regards to big law?

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magicman554
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby magicman554 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:11 pm

Michaela wrote:If you want to stay in Indy anyway, this is a no-brainer. IU Indy places best in Indy. PLUS you'd have no debt (besides for your small undergrad amount, which is doable). Since you want to work for the government anyway, there is no benefit job placement-wise to going into debt at ND.



No. IU-Bloomington places way better (by better I'm not just talking volume). IU-Indy is borderline T3.

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angiej
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby angiej » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:37 pm

magicman554 wrote:
Michaela wrote:If you want to stay in Indy anyway, this is a no-brainer. IU Indy places best in Indy. PLUS you'd have no debt (besides for your small undergrad amount, which is doable). Since you want to work for the government anyway, there is no benefit job placement-wise to going into debt at ND.



No. IU-Bloomington places way better (by better I'm not just talking volume). IU-Indy is borderline T3.


Probably Indiana-wide, yes. But look at the distribution of grads in some of the largest Indy firms. Like Barnes and Thornburg and Baker and Daniels. There is a difference. I just wish data for public sector was more readily available for me to compare to since that is more relevant for me.

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lolschool2011
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby lolschool2011 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:40 pm

IU-Indy is one of the best TTT

ND is one of the best TT

The legal job market is TTTT

Average T's in this consideration = TTT

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angiej
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby angiej » Thu Jan 27, 2011 4:43 pm

lolschool2011 wrote:IU-Indy is one of the best TTT

ND is one of the best TT

The legal job market is TTTT

Average T's in this consideration = TTT


Huh? 22nd ranked ND is 2nd Tier??? And 86th ranked Indy is 3rd? Is The T10 now the exclusive Tier 1?

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KMaine
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby KMaine » Thu Jan 27, 2011 5:02 pm

Am I right that the difference in debt is $45k? So, you are going to give up your dream for 45k? (15K if you lose your scholarship). Look into the low income loan repayment information for ND. I would absolutely look into having the stips removed from the Indy scholarship. It is not a reasonable objection to say you don't want to doubt your abilities as a student.

It sounds to me like you really want to be a lawyer, in which case dropping out after 1L is not a possibility. With ND you will give yourself a chance at federal clerkships and probably have as good if not better chance at state clerkships. It will substantially improve your chances at academia (even in an adjunct capacity) if you go to ND (although your chances may be slim in any event). ND will give you more flexibility in the future if you want to move away from Indiana, if you decide you want to go into private practice, etc.

I would not consider the Indy offer unless they remove the stips. I got into most of the t-14s I applied to, and the offer ND gave you was about equal to mine, so they are giving you a pretty good deal. Go Irish!

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magicman554
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby magicman554 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:09 pm

angiej wrote:
lolschool2011 wrote:IU-Indy is one of the best TTT

ND is one of the best TT

The legal job market is TTTT

Average T's in this consideration = TTT


Huh? 22nd ranked ND is 2nd Tier??? And 86th ranked Indy is 3rd? Is The T10 now the exclusive Tier 1?



No. ND is upper T1. Indy is T2, borderline T3. Poster is confused.

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lolschool2011
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby lolschool2011 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:13 pm

magicman554 wrote:
angiej wrote:
lolschool2011 wrote:IU-Indy is one of the best TTT

ND is one of the best TT

The legal job market is TTTT

Average T's in this consideration = TTT


Huh? 22nd ranked ND is 2nd Tier??? And 86th ranked Indy is 3rd? Is The T10 now the exclusive Tier 1?



No. ND is upper T1. Indy is T2, borderline T3. Poster is confused.


I was adjusting for projected legal job market when OP graduates.

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Michaela
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby Michaela » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:49 pm

angiej wrote:
magicman554 wrote:
Michaela wrote:If you want to stay in Indy anyway, this is a no-brainer. IU Indy places best in Indy. PLUS you'd have no debt (besides for your small undergrad amount, which is doable). Since you want to work for the government anyway, there is no benefit job placement-wise to going into debt at ND.



No. IU-Bloomington places way better (by better I'm not just talking volume). IU-Indy is borderline T3.


Probably Indiana-wide, yes. But look at the distribution of grads in some of the largest Indy firms. Like Barnes and Thornburg and Baker and Daniels. There is a difference. I just wish data for public sector was more readily available for me to compare to since that is more relevant for me.


I wonder if it would an option to look at the surrounding Indy counties DA office websites (Marion, Hamilton, Hendricks, etc) and look at their employee bio sections and see where most went to school.

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LSATWIZ
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby LSATWIZ » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:29 pm

angiej wrote:
magicman554 wrote:
Michaela wrote:If you want to stay in Indy anyway, this is a no-brainer. IU Indy places best in Indy. PLUS you'd have no debt (besides for your small undergrad amount, which is doable). Since you want to work for the government anyway, there is no benefit job placement-wise to going into debt at ND.



No. IU-Bloomington places way better (by better I'm not just talking volume). IU-Indy is borderline T3.


Probably Indiana-wide, yes. But look at the distribution of grads in some of the largest Indy firms. Like Barnes and Thornburg and Baker and Daniels. There is a difference. I just wish data for public sector was more readily available for me to compare to since that is more relevant for me.

This is misleading, Angie, and contingent on how you define best.

Is a man who approaches 1000s of women and gets two numbers than a man who approaches one lady and gets her number?

Just because a school places the most people in a given city does not mean it places the best in that city. I think field goal percentage is the most important measure - how many people who want a city get the city from a given school.

Of course, there is no data on the subject, but it's logical to presume there will be more IU: Indy in Indy than IU: Bloomington... but do they place better? Which gives you the best opportunity?

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LSATWIZ
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby LSATWIZ » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:32 pm

I think I'd take the ND personally. Are you SURE you want to work in Indy over any where else in the region? The difference in rankings between 22 & 40 might be worth it. This is 22 and 80-something. It is a huge difference. It's solidly entrenched in tier 1 and not moving (granted not up either) vs. boarderline tier 3.

09042014
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby 09042014 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:39 pm

Notre Dame is a rancid TTT. Chicago firms sold them down the river when the economy crashed.

That being said you have to consider the stipulation. If you aren't willing to drop out if you fail to keep your scholarship, then you might as just go to a ND. You got a 50-50 shot of losing that thing.

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soullesswonder
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby soullesswonder » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:56 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Notre Dame is a rancid TTT. Chicago firms sold them down the river when the economy crashed.

That being said you have to consider the stipulation. If you aren't willing to drop out if you fail to keep your scholarship, then you might as just go to a ND. You got a 50-50 shot of losing that thing.


rancid TTT is a little strong, mayhaps? At least they were actually represented at Chicago firms pre-ITE, and in any case ND still put 29 percent of its Grads in the NLJ 250 in 2009. OP isn't banking on Chicago BigLaw, so it's fairly irrelevant anyway.

I'm a debt-adverse individual, but to me the debt differential here just isn't enough to tip the scale in Indy's favor. Notre Dame is the closest thing to a national law school you'll find outside the T20. At a bare minimum, you benefit from the loyalty of the alumni and the name recognition should you ever want to move or dabble in academia. I'm not an expert in the Indiana legal market, but the idea that an ND grad wouldn't instantly have an advantage over an Indy grad anywhere within the state blows my mind a little. You clearly love the idea of being at the school, and that's important - it keeps you motivated and involved. There's just such a huge gap in national and regional perception of ND vis a vis IU-Indy that I can't fathom passing up the former for the latter under these circumstances.
Last edited by soullesswonder on Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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lolschool2011
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby lolschool2011 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:02 pm

soullesswonder wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Notre Dame is a rancid TTT. Chicago firms sold them down the river when the economy crashed.

That being said you have to consider the stipulation. If you aren't willing to drop out if you fail to keep your scholarship, then you might as just go to a ND. You got a 50-50 shot of losing that thing.


rancid TTT is a little strong, mayhaps? At least they were actually represented at Chicago firms pre-ITE, and in any case ND still put 29 percent of its Grads in the NLJ 250 in 2009. OP isn't banking on Chicago BigLaw anyway, so it's fairly irrelevant anyway.

I'm a debt-adverse individual, but to me the debt differential here just isn't enough to tip the scale in Indy's favor. Notre Dame is the closest thing to a national law school you'll find outside the T20. At a bare minimum, you benefit from the loyalty of the alumni and the name recognition should you ever want to move or dabble in academia. I'm not an expert in the Indiana legal market, but the idea that an ND grad wouldn't instantly have an advantage over an Indy grad anywhere within the state blows my mind a little. You clearly love the idea of being at the school, and that's important - it keeps you motivated and involved. There's just such a huge gap in national and regional perception of ND vis a vis IU-Indy that I can't fathom passing up the former for the latter under these circumstances.


It's still blows my mind, in this age of information, that people rely so heavily on "name recognition" so much. Everyone's learning the same law in every law school in all the land. Yes there are definitely some better professors than others, but with that said, I wish TLS would start debating who the best law profs are, instead of referencing that cartoonish US News nonsense over and over. There are several TTTTT's with pretty illustrious ivy league lawyer profs that have accomplished quite a bit and are worth a listen in any LS class. (devils advocate post over)

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soullesswonder
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby soullesswonder » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:13 pm

lolschool2011 wrote:
soullesswonder wrote:
Desert Fox wrote:Notre Dame is a rancid TTT. Chicago firms sold them down the river when the economy crashed.

That being said you have to consider the stipulation. If you aren't willing to drop out if you fail to keep your scholarship, then you might as just go to a ND. You got a 50-50 shot of losing that thing.


rancid TTT is a little strong, mayhaps? At least they were actually represented at Chicago firms pre-ITE, and in any case ND still put 29 percent of its Grads in the NLJ 250 in 2009. OP isn't banking on Chicago BigLaw anyway, so it's fairly irrelevant anyway.

I'm a debt-adverse individual, but to me the debt differential here just isn't enough to tip the scale in Indy's favor. Notre Dame is the closest thing to a national law school you'll find outside the T20. At a bare minimum, you benefit from the loyalty of the alumni and the name recognition should you ever want to move or dabble in academia. I'm not an expert in the Indiana legal market, but the idea that an ND grad wouldn't instantly have an advantage over an Indy grad anywhere within the state blows my mind a little. You clearly love the idea of being at the school, and that's important - it keeps you motivated and involved. There's just such a huge gap in national and regional perception of ND vis a vis IU-Indy that I can't fathom passing up the former for the latter under these circumstances.


It's still blows my mind, in this age of information, that people rely so heavily on "name recognition" so much. Everyone's learning the same law in every law school in all the land. Yes there are definitely some better professors than others, but with that said, I wish TLS would start debating who the best law profs are, instead of referencing that cartoonish US News nonsense over and over. There are several TTTTT's with pretty illustrious ivy league lawyer profs that have accomplished quite a bit and are worth a listen in any LS class. (devils advocate post over)


If I thought law firms (EDIT: or public interest employers) actually cared about professor quality when making hiring decisions, then I would factor it into my analysis. The only responsible thing to do is account for the biases and methodological weaknesses of legal hiring (and I'm not even sure this particular complaint is a weakness - I suspect students who did well under crappy profs will be better prepared to handle that cantankerous assigning partner).

flcath
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby flcath » Thu Jan 27, 2011 8:14 pm

Desert Fox wrote:Notre Dame is a rancid TTT. Chicago firms sold them down the river when the economy crashed.

That being said you have to consider the stipulation. If you aren't willing to drop out if you fail to keep your scholarship, then you might as just go to a ND. You got a 50-50 shot of losing that thing.

I agree with this: I personally think I'd go with IU-Indy for free in your situation, and just drop out if I lost my scholarship. But if you are not going to drop out if you lose the scholarship then definitely go to ND. Otherwise, there is a 50% chance that'll you'll get stuck with a far shittier degree AND (talk about adding insult to injury) even more debt than had you taken the 50% at ND... it's not like getting below a 3.0 at IU-I means going from 100% scholly to 50% scholly; they take it all away.

I'm here at ND (why was this not added to the list of pros?), and we'd love to have you, but Chi firms have disappeared over the past 2 years; we sent as many ppl to NYC as to Chicago last year. The LRAP program is as good as anything outside of the T6 (the school is institutionally committed to the program, and it's expanded significantly every year), but the "national" status claim of the school really more accurately translates to "an alumni network spread too thin to be useful at any one particular place."

Congrats on ND, though, I remember you were huge on this place. It really is a good school; it's the profession that's a rancid TTT.

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twairlines
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby twairlines » Thu Jan 27, 2011 9:03 pm

anjiej, sorry to jump in but is your 50% tuition a hypothetical case? I was looking at the other thread (and may have missed it,,,or an RC failure), but I thought you were unaware of any scholarship info to this point at ND. Best of luck with your decision, and I hope the best for you as your story in the other thread was remarkably touching.

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angiej
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby angiej » Thu Jan 27, 2011 10:08 pm

twairlines wrote:anjiej, sorry to jump in but is your 50% tuition a hypothetical case? I was looking at the other thread (and may have missed it,,,or an RC failure), but I thought you were unaware of any scholarship info to this point at ND. Best of luck with your decision, and I hope the best for you as your story in the other thread was remarkably touching.

I'm delighted to report that this isn't a "drill." LOL. Miraculously, I was offered a 50% tuition scholarship to ND. Excluding living expenses (but including books and fees) I am still $25,000 per year short. So the difference is literally $0 debt (assuming I pay cash for books) at Indy or $75,000 at ND. Public sector jobs aren't going to pay a dif salary based on prestige. Nevertheless, I'm having a pretty difficult time here because ND is my dream and its been difficult to put emotions aside to really take a hard look at this.

Of course, if I were to lose my scholly at Indy, I would much rather have paid the same cost fore a ND degree. But since there is a chance this won't be the case, not having a $800+ per month loan payment post-graduation is quite enticing.

EDIT: I should mention that my husband, too has about 40k in undergrad loans. So combined, we are looking at a huge amount to pay off.

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twairlines
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby twairlines » Fri Jan 28, 2011 12:23 am

anjie, I hear you on the debt front. I'm packing about 40k in debt from undergrad, and though I'm not going to ND I'm choosing between a TT(full scholly) in the market I want and a T30 around that market but at 50% tuition. I'll prob. choose the money as I'm not out to impress anyone, and what I want to attain is very doable in a school that is in the market I want. I would say just do whatever makes you feel better as solid points are given for both schools. Spend a whole day in the mindset that you chose one over the other and the next day do the other school. Actually think through it, and if one makes you feel extremely uneasy in a lapse of that one day, picture that feeling through your law studies and there after. Congrats again, and sorry if I came off wrong for questioning your ND scholly I just wasn't aware of it in the other thread.

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JamMasterJ
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Re: Notre Dame 50% $ vs. IU-Indianapolis 100% $

Postby JamMasterJ » Sat Jan 29, 2011 7:23 pm

One thing you need to remember is that many government jobs have some sort of loan repayment assistance plan, and if you are planning on doing the work that you seem to be leaning toward, you will likely be eligible for this. Plus, once you get into law school, you might hate the idea of having closed some of your doors before entering. You might wish you had gone to the better school.




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